Pretty stinging indictment on the Church in America

Luke 5;32

I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

So now... there were righteous individuals... before there were Christians. And I think the reference to the righteous was to people living when our Lord Jesus was about his ministry that would begin with the Wedding at Canaan and would end with the sending of the Holy Spirit to His disciples. It also suggests to me that there were righteous people before this time, as well.



Genesis 16:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

I submit that Abram believed the Lord to the extent that he acted on this belief. If Abram acted on this belief, then he walked with God. I personally find it difficult to not say that if Abram acted on God's will, he was not a participant in eternal life. And therefore the righteous in our Lord's days of ministry as indicated previously are equally to eternal life, even but especially before the jaw dropping sacrifice of the cross.

For some reason some people still had it in their makeup to walk with God, despite that the world about them which was filled with the lost in the fog of the curse-- the cumulative effects of original sin over the time spans of history.

Duet 9:5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

(I personally think the gentiles are the driven out people... the lost people... He called you to his eternal glory.)


John 17:3


And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(Did Moses not know the only true God, and Elijah and countless more!)



John 5: 24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I submit that the words of Jesus are God's word and God's word is already know to man before Jesus provides the Holy Spirit to his disciples-- the saints...

1st Cor 2:11

For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

( The thoughts of God were made know to man long before there were Christians. Abraham is perhaps our greatest example of this. There are many more examples. The righteous have always heard and believed our Creator.)

Jesus did not come for them ( the righteous), he came for the not so righteous so that they-we like our now spiritual heroes, we-they who were unrighteous, lost, unable to hear, unable to see ( unable to live with eternal life), sick and living with evil spirits can now live with faith as the righteous live, as our spiritual heroes live and lived even before Jesus and since his loving ministry... as Messiah ( Saver-Savior), and Good Shepard to the lost. Us.

gordon 2 said:

Exactly... I never considered it a vision... but can see why some would...

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Matthew 17:9

As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Do not tell anyone about this vision until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

It's scriptural.

Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

NE GA Pappy said:

Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

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Does Mark contradict Matthew, or does Matthew compliment Mark?

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/17-9.htm

hobbs27 said:

Matthew 17:9

As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Do not tell anyone about this vision until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

It's scriptural.

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Ok... I said I understand why some would think this a vision, yes it is scriptural.

However the transfiguration for me is akin to Jesus appearing ( not as a vision) to the disciples after he was layed in the tomb.

There is something about the transfiguration which might have been said to be a vision to the disciples seeing Jesus become radiant with light and Moses and Elijah equally present with our Lord that seems akin to the reality of the resurrected, or the heavenly at least which is as real (reality) for us. Where exactly is reality most true, most real, between the graduations from life in this here old world of satanic mills and life rich in the love of God? For me there is something about the transfiguration that is more true about reality, then the reality that people ( disciples) who witnessed this event. For their inner make ups it might have been perceived as a vision, but the event was a finer reality than their capacity to see it then. Perhaps. Maybe. Kinda...

gordon 2 said:

Luke 5;32

I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

So now... there were righteous individuals... before there were Christians. And I think the reference to the righteous was to people living when our Lord Jesus was about his ministry that would begin with the Wedding at Canaan and would end with the sending of the Holy Spirit to His disciples. It also suggests to me that there were righteous people before this time, as well.

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For some reason I have always thought what set Christianity aside from Judaism was a belief in Christ, not righteousness.

John 14:16
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

That just being righteous wasn't ever good enough because the penalty imposed by sin would still be present.
Maybe a belief in the promise of Christ would suffice. Maybe if one knows God they know Jesus and vice-versa. Therefore it say a Pacific Islander knew God by nature and was righteous, he would know Jesus as well. He could have known Jesus as God by election instead of hearing the Word even before the gospel came in the form presented by Paul.

If this is true then the Reformed view is correct. People knowing God. A time when teaching would not be needed. God himself will make them aware.

gordon 2 said:

Ok... I said I understand why some would think this a vision, yes it is scriptural.

However the transfiguration for me is akin to Jesus appearing ( not as a vision) to the disciples after he was layed in the tomb.

There is something about the transfiguration which might have been said to be a vision to the disciples seeing Jesus become radiant with light and Moses and Elijah equally present with our Lord that seems akin to the reality of the resurrected, or the heavenly at least which is as real (reality) for us.

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It was a vision of Christ coming. The Parousia.

Artfuldodger said:

For some reason I have always thought what set Christianity aside from Judaism was a belief in Christ, not righteousness.

John 14:16
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

That just being righteous wasn't ever good enough because the penalty imposed by sin would still be present.
Maybe a belief in the promise of Christ would suffice. Maybe if one knows God they know Jesus and vice-versa. Therefore it say a Pacific Islander knew God by nature and was righteous, he would know Jesus as well. He could have known Jesus as God by election instead of hearing the Word even before the gospel came in the form presented by Paul.

If this is true then the Reformed view is correct. People knowing God. A time when teaching would not be needed. God himself will make them aware.

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I think your on to something here. Did not Paul say somewhere that all knew God but some just dismissed the relationship?

God being the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit...equal... I find it hard to not comprehend that the God which was in Abraham's heart was not Jesus in the Father. But hey that's just one way of looking at it.

hobbs27 said:

It was a vision of Christ coming. The Parousia.

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What I understand of it is that Jesus for reasons God knows gathered Moses and Elijah just ahead of his taking on the sins of the world for all who would believe.

I know that Moses begged God that He spare the people who were rank sinners. I'm not sure Elijah did likewise or failed to do this. I'm told other prophets begged God to spare sinners. Somehow Jesus was aligning Himself with those prophets plea to God-- that even people who could not be faithful should be spared and saved. Jesus was going to answer their prayers--- like only God could! I bet Elijah and Moses were awed!

So this was not a vision for me. It was more like a confident general pointing out and pointing to a map concerning how an enemy was going to be roundly defeated. And that general was " a other prophet like me" and that general was God-- the God of eternal life, the author of that which the prophets prophecy.

NE GA Pappy said:

Mark 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

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What is the importance or difference in the disciples seeing them as a vision or otherwise? Regardless did they see them as spirit beings or flesh? Were they resurrected men? They saw them as men but we know that part of being a man is spiritual. We know they both had died a physical death. Is it impossible to see a spirit? Did they see them with their eyes and hear them converse with their ears?
Why would one way or the other be that important?

To me the question would be why did Jesus tell them not to tell anyone what they had seen until he had risen from the dead.

Artfuldodger said:

What is the importance or difference in the disciples seeing them as a vision or otherwise? Regardless did they see them as spirit beings or flesh? Were they resurrected men?

To me the question would be why did Jesus tell them not to tell anyone what they had seen until he had risen from the dead.

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Maybe because it would get everyone in a tangle... and things were going to get tangled up real good as it was...

It is the light of the resurrection, the grace of God through Jesus, the patience of the Holy Spirit that makes the Transfiguration minister to me-- not as a vision but---as a reality not unlike declaring you my brother, that we are to His kingdom, that it is just to love and foolish to hate from "born again eyes" and seeing not from the subject gazed-contemplated at, but at least in part from God's will which is in part at least now know to me and as a friend practiced.

Now I will shut up and let the person addressed answer....

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

hobbs27 said:

Does Mark contradict Matthew, or does Matthew compliment Mark?

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/17-9.htm

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since I am not a greek scholar, I looked up the actual words in my interlinear greek/english New Testament.

The actual greek word used in Matt 17-9 means a vision or a supernatural appearance.

I reckon it was...

Seeing Moses and Elijah standing next to Jesus and ministering to him would certainly fall under the heading of supernatural appearance.

Gordon, there was a host of things Jesus told people not to talk about. I wonder why all the time. When he healed the blind man, he told him not to tell anyone. You reckon nobody would notice if he didn't tell them he could see??? lol

I believe we can get things backward. We think what we see in the natural is the real, and the true. In that manner what we hear of visions become something less than the real. They can , in our mind then, take on a sort of imaginary property, as though they are something less, or, at the very least, less than true substance. The rock we hold in our hand may be to us the true, the substantial...but we know this is not the end of the matter.

Faith delivers us to something else.

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The above would be all of confusion were it not true. How can such a statement be made? Indeed, apart from faith it is all nonsense to a man. "Not look at what is seen?" But "we look at what is unseen"?

Visions "of God" are always a view into what is the real, and true. Here, the temporal, which at best may serve as a pointer, a hint(if you will) at what is not seen, even in their beholding, must give way for the true.

One man may say "this is rock, this is nothing more than what I attribute to it in being" (and we may see man has been very busy in forming all sorts of attributes of definition, mass, size, compositions...has "come up" with a myriad of words for description...thinking in descriptions he has captured all the essence of rock's being) We are oh so easily given to declare the end of a thing in our definitions. Words we make up to describe the "what is", and then by implication even those words take on an immutability of finality...to us. Potassium, silicate minerals, or traces of selenium, chromium... This is all of what is...of rock! This is all there is to know "of rock!"

Faith, of course, sees quite differently.

NE GA Pappy said:

Gordon, there was a host of things Jesus told people not to talk about. I wonder why all the time. When he healed the blind man, he told him not to tell anyone. You reckon nobody would notice if he didn't tell them he could see??? lol

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Well to what, to who, would-could people testify that they were healed? or that supernatural events were accomplished by our Lord? Of Jesus the son of Mary and Joseph? A new prophet? A Rabbi in the spirit? A healer? The Messiah? A wise man from Gallilee? A disciple of John?

I think Jesus explains at some point that his miracles are signs... of the Messiah. I personally think they are signs for all times and all of mankind. They are signs for those who have faith alone and they are signs for those who need to check with scripture what the signs of the Messiah would be. And they are signs of recognition for those who have and had the Father in their hearts to being with and what they recognize is God present and with us.

Israel said:

I believe we can get things backward. We think what we see in the natural is the real, and the true. In that manner what we hear of visions become something less than the real. They can , in our mind then, take on a sort of imaginary property, as though they are something less, or, at the very least, less than true substance. The rock we hold in our hand may be to us the true, the substantial...but we know this is not the end of the matter.

Faith delivers us to something else.

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The above would be all of confusion were it not true. How can such a statement be made? Indeed, apart from faith it is all nonsense to a man. "Not look at what is seen?" But "we look at what is unseen"?

Visions "of God" are always a view into what is the real, and true. Here, the temporal, which at best may serve as a pointer, a hint(if you will) at what is not seen, even in their beholding, must give way for the true.

One man may say "this is rock, this is nothing more than what I attribute to it in being" (and we may see man has been very busy in forming all sorts of attributes of definition, mass, size, compositions...has "come up" with a myriad of words for description...thinking in descriptions he has captured all the essence of rock's being) We are oh so easily given to declare the end of a thing in our definitions. Words we make up to describe the "what is", and then by implication even those words take on an immutability of finality...to us. Potassium, silicate minerals, or traces of selenium, chromium... This is all of what is...of rock! This is all there is to know "of rock!"

Faith, of course, sees quite differently.

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I think I get what you mean here. The transfiguration is more real from an in Christ perspective than the talk back from my wife which I love dearly. LOL.... And sometimes her talk back can get real real in a New York minute. To see in Christ is not just a refection of the sun's radiation on objects which are picked up by the eye and processed by the brain. To see in Christ is to experience eternal life or life active as it is meant to be. It is to experience the will of God and many other things... in God. The old bromide" I was blind but now I see" does not speak of eye function, but of a transformation of the whole soul vis a vis its assessments of realities often never suspected previous.

gordon 2 said:

I think I get what you mean here. The transfiguration is more real from an in Christ perspective than the talk back from my wife which I love dearly. LOL.... And that talk back can get real real in a New York minute.

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Amen!

Yes!

gordon 2 said:

I think I get what you mean here. The transfiguration is more real from an in Christ perspective than the talk back from my wife which I love dearly. LOL.... And sometimes her talk back can get real real in a New York minute. To see in Christ is not just a refection of the sun's radiation on objects which are picked up by the eye and processed by the brain. To see in Christ is to experience eternal life or life active as it is meant to be. It is to experience the will of God and many other things... in God. The old bromide" I was blind but now I see" does not speak of eye function, but of a transformation of the whole soul vis a vis its assessments of realities often never suspected previous.

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Yes! And then, in and from that place...to be found sent into the world.

Israel said:

Yes! And then, in and from that place...to be found sent into the world.

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The derail topics of this tread still haunt me--the subject of the Transfiguration especially.

What haunt's me especially is that of a reported or believed vision of Christ before his ascension.

To my mind if the Transfiguration is a vision then it is a Christophany highly unusual.

The traditional definition of a Christophany is that it is a non-physical and therefore supernatural manifestation of Jesus.

The context of the transfiguration is that a physically present Jesus transforms into a non-physical presence to mingle with two non-physically present individuals, these are Moses and Elijah.

So this is what I see:

Jesus physically present.
Jesus' friends physically present.

Jesus non-physically present.
Elijah non-physically present.
Moses non physically present.

What I find haunting is that the Transfiguration is were two spiritual realities meet and mingle. Why is this event important that the Gospel writers would include it in their gospels? It is a theophany-christophany both "mount to mouth" or physically present and yet of an unusual and striking visual nature more common to spiritual visions of the holy...

For me the transfiguration scene is so real that the description of the disciples at the event seems to be the vision!

So some find it a vision and some a miracle, I read. It is highly uncommon as a christophany where Christ is transformed as if non-physical while He is yet physical or not with his glorified body, ( that is prior the ascension.)

Hobbs indicates that it is a vision of Christ coming.

I read today that Thomas Aquinas said that it showed the perfection of life in heaven.

I read in Wiki that the Transfiguration is said by some to be a pivot point of the gospels-- where heaven and earth meet, it is where " human nature and God meet" :


"In Christian teachings, the Transfiguration is a pivotal moment, and the setting on the mountain is presented as the point where human nature meets God: the meeting place of the temporal and the eternal, with Jesus himself as the connecting point, acting as the bridge between heaven and earth.[10] Moreover, Christians consider the Transfiguration to fulfill an Old Testament messianic prophecy that Elijah would return again after his ascension (Malachi 4:5-6).

Gardner (2015, p. 218) states... ( source Wiki)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus

I'm not sure what to make of it as if it was physical or spiritual. Perhaps Jesus' first return to the spiritual realm or first return to God the Father.

Some say that the presence of Moses and Elijah represented the "Law and the Prophets", as God saying about Jesus, "listen to him."

Like the old going away and the new coming in. Just one of those mysteries man has always pondered.


Jesus physically present.
Jesus' friends physically present.

Jesus non-physically present.
Elijah non-physically present.
Moses non physically present.

This reads like Jesus and his friends were physically watching three spirits gather together. Which is believable but places physical Jesus watching spiritual Jesus as a separate entity.