Converting the dying

Israel · Dec 27, 2017

John 14:26

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Matt. 6

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard ...

We are given to know that Jesus very rarely prayed openly and in the hearing of his disciples. We do know He often separated himself.

And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.

A thorough reading again of John 14 is not without merit.

It starts with instruction and address.

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me."

And the rest...follows.

bullethead · Dec 27, 2017

Israel said:
John 14:26

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Matt. 6

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard ...

We are given to know that Jesus very rarely prayed openly and in the hearing of his disciples. We do know He often separated himself.

And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.

A thorough reading again of John 14 is not without merit.

It starts with instruction and address.

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.

And the rest...follows.

When Jesus was alone praying, or when it was just Jesus and one other person, or demon overlord....
How do anonymous authors who wrote stories that were 30 to 70 years(by generous estimates) later know what Jesus said at all? I mean if his disciples were not around to hear it, how did these authors get what was said correct?

And if you are back to answering questions, please let me know how people who believe in other gods came to believe in those gods if devious foisters who inflate stories cannot be considered a legitimate possibility.

bullethead · Dec 27, 2017

Israel said:
John 14:26

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Matt. 6

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard ...

We are given to know that Jesus very rarely prayed openly and in the hearing of his disciples. We do know He often separated himself.

And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.

A thorough reading again of John 14 is not without merit.

It starts with instruction and address.

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me."

And the rest...follows.

Didn't Jesus also tell a child or man not to call him good, that only God is good?

That is an odd thing to say if he IS God.
It seems more like something a mortal would say.

And then in his next breath he mentions about them knowing the commandments but mentions "do not defraud, honor thy father and mother.."
I don't remember defraud in that commandment.

Israel · Dec 27, 2017

There are many things about the humility of Christ all are just learning.

"The Father is greater than I..."

also in John 14.

John 16:15

Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you.

bullethead · Dec 27, 2017

Israel said:
There are many things about the humility of Christ all are just learning.

"The Father is greater than I..."

also in John 14

Yeah, many are learning that the preacher and God are two completely non related different characters in those stories too.

bullethead · Dec 27, 2017

Israel said:
There are many things about the humility of Christ all are just learning.

"The Father is greater than I..."

also in John 14

What can we learn about the questions I asked you a few posts ago and last night?

atlashunter · Dec 27, 2017

Israel said:
John 14:26

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Matt. 6

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard ...

We are given to know that Jesus very rarely prayed openly and in the hearing of his disciples. We do know He often separated himself.

And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.

A thorough reading again of John 14 is not without merit.

It starts with instruction and address.

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me."

And the rest...follows.

Matthew 6 he is talking about not praying in order to bring glory to oneself by making a false portrayal of piety. Don't think that is an issue for groups of Christians in this study whose names were not even publicized. It also says nothing about the effectiveness one can expect from prayer. John 14 does.

atlashunter · Dec 27, 2017

bullethead said:
When Jesus was alone praying, or when it was just Jesus and one other person, or demon overlord....
How do anonymous authors who wrote stories that were 30 to 70 years(by generous estimates) later know what Jesus said at all? I mean if his disciples were not around to hear it, how did these authors get what was said correct?

And if you are back to answering questions, please let me know how people who believe in other gods came to believe in those gods if devious foisters who inflate stories cannot be considered a legitimate possibility.

The Bible also cites numerous instances of Jesus praying and performing miracles in public.

Israel · Dec 28, 2017

I commend you to that One who made Himself of no reputation.

When we all know the why He didn't bother with such futility and silliness, I also hope to be among those all.

For in Him is all and the only hope this windbag has ever seen.

bullethead · Dec 28, 2017

atlashunter said:
The Bible also cites numerous instances of Jesus praying and performing miracles in public.

Yeah. It must have been So impressive that it took 4 guys who never witnessed it, to write about it decades upon decades later.
That is, unless Eusebius didn't take it upon himself to have those stories written a few hundred years later.

Israel · Dec 29, 2017

bullethead said:
Yeah. It must have been So impressive that it took 4 guys who never witnessed it, to write about it decades upon decades later.
That is, unless Eusebius didn't take it upon himself to have those stories written a few hundred years later.

You present your case for the devious and cunning manipulations of homo religialis in a persistence that makes me almost envious of your devotions.

In outward appearance only, we may appear as two men standing in some opposition. Yet I am not wholly convinced at all that this is so. I am ever more being convinced we are too alike than we yet know.

And that, for the most part what is seen, almost assuredly outwardly, and I will also presume even in a measure inwardly, is a work of labors toward distinction.

But brother, how much we mutually share.

atlashunter · Dec 29, 2017

Israel said:
You present your case for the devious and cunning manipulations of homo religialis in a persistence that makes me almost envious of your devotions.

In outward appearance only, we may appear as two men standing in some opposition. Yet I am not wholly convinced at all that this is so. I am ever more being convinced we are too alike than we yet know.

And that, for the most part what is seen, almost assuredly outwardly, and I will also presume even in a measure inwardly, is a work of labors toward distinction.

But brother, how much we mutually share.

Good to know you also have doubts on the inside. :cheers:

bullethead · Dec 29, 2017

Israel said:
You present your case for the devious and cunning manipulations of homo religialis in a persistence that makes me almost envious of your devotions.

In outward appearance only, we may appear as two men standing in some opposition. Yet I am not wholly convinced at all that this is so. I am ever more being convinced we are too alike than we yet know.

And that, for the most part what is seen, almost assuredly outwardly, and I will also presume even in a measure inwardly, is a work of labors toward distinction.

But brother, how much we mutually share.

Save the hallmark replies and sermons.
You blatantly ignore everything that I've specifically asked you to answer without so much as a single word, but you can't stay away from the keyboard to include some anecdotal response that not only has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but is false.

If you in fact were like me, as you claim, you would answer with a reply on point when asked a question regarding the topic.
Yet Again, your claims do not equal the facts.

Israel · Dec 30, 2017

What is false?

That we are merely both men demanding answers?
That to my own mind such demand may seem softened as entreaty in accord to such an instruction that has inextricably grasped me? Yet all the while that instruction is of eternal magnitude, and therefore on that continuum we are each no nearer nor farther from the perfection of its execution.

How soft...is soft? How true, is true?

What endows both you and I with what we claim so inalienably, so fundamentally, so axiomatically, that we may never know its source to the fullness of what we claim as right?

What do we find if we dare examine this compelling thing, begin to move to its margins to peer beneath (or above, if better said?), moving away from center in hopes of better glimpse of its edges, and grasping them as lion might in netted trap, find them, curl them to a firmness, leap...and be free?

I must have the truth!

I will demand it of all, and in all, we may tell ourselves, even thinking such enobles us. This is no less true of the religious man than the so called irreligious one, each thinking he is nearer that edge of true sight.

What each imagines collected in struggles in the trap are verifiable to himself and neither dare surrender his efforts as vain, fruitless, he simply must believe he has come nearer the edge than those he believes simply wallow in a benightned-ness
of what we prefer to see as mute surrender.

I must have! I must see! I must know! How we hate the villain that would settle! We know the deal made there. Let me have such towering pleasure in the trap that it might erase the truth of its being.

Let me but go back to sleep and dream such marvelous uninterrupted dreams that I will not feel the terrifying grasp of what truly holds me. It will be enough for me to sleep...and dream. And be rid of this Sisyphus. I am overcome by all my own efforts.

But there is One asleep in the storm tossed vessel. The only One, awake. "Master, Don't you care that we perish?"!!!!!

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God

Don't accuse God of being both arsonist and fireman before you see how much of fires have been started by ones own frictions of self effort. Those very conflagrations of which we once flattered ourselves saying "I was just trying to be like you!". Or, "I was just struggling to know the truth." Or "I was just trying to be free"

Oh, the laughter.

When all accusation is gone.

Nailed to the tree.

bullethead · Dec 30, 2017

Israel, after your usual 6am-ish 3 flusher you again miss the bowl, err...point entirely.

When you ask me something I take the time to read it through(usually 5 times) and answer it honestly. You get an answer that is on topic and to the point.

If and when you reply, you answer with a lengthy(see above) reply where you turn it into a self question and answer session to somehow lead the conversation into a thought that you had overnight but that has nothing to do with what was initially asked. You are the only one in the conversation at that point. More specifically when the question is directed at you and puts you in a position that an honest answer is required, you literally ignore it instead of being honest. After 2nd and 3rd direct requests to answer the questions you suddenly gets writers cramp.

Do us all a favor and nock off this two similar peas in a pod shtick. Yet again your assertions and claims to not match your actions.

Israel · Dec 31, 2017

bullethead said:
Israel, after your usual 6am-ish 3 flusher you again miss the bowl, err...point entirely.

When you ask me something I take the time to read it through(usually 5 times) and answer it honestly. You get an answer that is on topic and to the point.

If and when you reply, you answer with a lengthy(see above) reply where you turn it into a self question and answer session to somehow lead the conversation into a thought that you had overnight but that has nothing to do with what was initially asked. You are the only one in the conversation at that point. More specifically when the question is directed at you and puts you in a position that an honest answer is required, you literally ignore it instead of being honest. After 2nd and 3rd direct requests to answer the questions you suddenly gets writers cramp.

Do us all a favor and nock off this two similar peas in a pod shtick. Yet again your assertions and claims to not match your actions.

How soft is soft?

Rightly, perhaps I stand accused. But in this you would be I think very misled; that I do not take our conversation seriously. But do you see, even there, that presumption? For I am not sure that you do.

Do you believe I take you...less than seriously?

Do you think (will I have to soon ask you to forgive this analogy?) I am frivolous skater on ice, dashing off to twirl freely unhindered when any particular one may think my greater need is to be captured still...in conversation?

You say I am dishonest, and I know it would be a lie for me to resist in any form by seeking to prove I am not. But, that does not make me honest. I have simply learned the tell of the liar...and even liars may learn how to subdue their more outward signs (for their own advantage at the gaming table) that have previously given themselves away to a loss when being "called". So, what then?

I wondered recently if this was all mere game. Is it as it may appear? But, then, I hear things. See things. The conversation around the table is to be paid attention. I can't say I am taking this more seriously than any other, because in the conversations another seriousness is plainly presented. Maybe I am indeed the gamer, but you can see where it would be fruitless to ask any other at the table, for we all sit...at the same table.

You don't like the shtick. You claim to see through it. To see through...me. What are the odds...that is true? If it is a game, that would be very important where loss and win are all that matters. How many cards did he take on the draw? Does he stand pat because he really has something...or is it all bluff? If he drew three, what does that mean? One...is is to a flush, a straight? What will be shown when all are finally...called? Who has folded? Did they indeed have nothing? Or will they be the one who, at end sees his lone pair of deuces would have swept the table against all the other poseurs?

And for now, it appears only you and I are at it, but we would be silly to think, to assume, there are "no other witnesses". That we are always and only...locked up to ourselves. For I have heard at the table...oft mention of an "us". Who represents the "house" here where we know labels are so easily forged and worn to a duplicity?
Or, do we not yet know this? Whose house is this...truly? And, if there be any...what are the house rules?

Are any free to wander the halls, search the rooms for clue? Or, is the house so structured, and rules so structured that all are prevented from seeing anything other than what may be visible to them from their seat at the table? Then, I am indeed...cheat. For on my rest breaks I looked other places and no one I found then, forbad me. So, am I cheat?

Indeed, one said "why not talk like we are just two guys in a boat?" This seems counter to two peas in a pod shtick. One seems to say "be more like me when we are together, (as though being so) more plain spoken that some substance of understanding can accrue to it." While another seems to say "make no assumption that we are at all, alike". Who bends in such a case...and to what? How much bending is being asked, in either direction toward, or away from a commonality? Be more "this way" or that? Is understanding really the end? Or just manipulation?

I confess, one of the doors I opened on my breaks was all of complete void. Empty of anything I could see. As far as I could see. No one forbad me opening it. Is this a house rule though? No opening of doors? Did I miss the memo?

I came away from that door. I know what I saw in all my not seeing, anything. What was the terror of it remained for some time. The experience "told" me something. The vastness of it can only mean one thing, it is far greater than the house I see in walls, and doors and rooms...it must encompass it. The things in which my eye finds a stop...an end...in perception. The reflection back of things...did not happen there. No form perceived, nothing upon which my eye could fix and say "this is...there". No answer, no echo. And the thing I learned there, even in the midst of its terror was this: the things I seem to know are always in contrast of exclusion to what is unknown, so that even things seemingly known owe their shape against this. But the unknown is infinite. It is not dependent upon the known, for its shape. For, it has none. Yet, it contains all the shapes. By which a man might navigate...even to that "room". And in that, I was comforted. Even in terror. There is an allowance for shapes of things. Even out from that infinite unknowable. This is what I believe I would call, as I believe have many, many others...grace. "Allowance for"...shapes of things given to shapes of things, till in some form of understanding "shapes" are not perceived as the all and only, and what was formerly of mere shape...may become as "real" as that infinite.

So, when at this table in which shape of game seems to take place I hear a man say a thing like (for I will not peruse the posts, or search to find verbatim, but trust instead my memory may be reliable to an end of understanding) this:

"The God I can believe in is the God I am not able in any way to comprehend" (would it be right to say "capture with my understanding?")

I must ask...do I remember correctly? Have I been paying attention? Do I take this speaker...seriously? Are his accusations of my frivolity sound? Or has he too, opened a door in his wanderings...and at least come away...even a little bit...like me?

atlashunter · Dec 31, 2017

Israel said:
How soft is soft?

Rightly, perhaps I stand accused. But in this you would be I think very misled; that I do not take our conversation seriously. But do you see, even there, that presumption? For I am not sure that you do.

Do you believe I take you...less than seriously?

Do you think (will I have to soon ask you to forgive this analogy?) I am frivolous skater on ice, dashing off to twirl freely unhindered when any particular one may think my greater need is to be captured still...in conversation?

You say I am dishonest, and I know it would be a lie for me to resist in any form by seeking to prove I am not. But, that does not make me honest. I have simply learned the tell of the liar...and even liars may learn how to subdue their more outward signs (for their own advantage at the gaming table) that have previously given themselves away to a loss when being "called". So, what then?

I wondered recently if this was all mere game. Is it as it may appear? But, then, I hear things. See things. The conversation around the table is to be paid attention. I can't say I am taking this more seriously than any other, because in the conversations another seriousness is plainly presented. Maybe I am indeed the gamer, but you can see where it would be fruitless to ask any other at the table, for we all sit...at the same table.

You don't like the shtick. You claim to see through it. To see through...me. What are the odds...that is true? If it is a game, that would be very important where loss and win are all that matters. How many cards did he take on the draw? Does he stand pat because he really has something...or is it all bluff? If he drew three, what does that mean? One...is is to a flush, a straight? What will be shown when all are finally...called? Who has folded? Did they indeed have nothing? Or will they be the one who, at end sees his lone pair of deuces would have swept the table against all the other poseurs?

And for now, it appears only you and I are at it, but we would be silly to think, to assume, there are "no other witnesses". That we are always and only...locked up to ourselves. For I have heard at the table...oft mention of an "us". Who represents the "house" here where we know labels are so easily forged and worn to a duplicity?
Or, do we not yet know this? Whose house is this...truly? And, if there be any...what are the house rules?

Are any free to wander the halls, search the rooms for clue? Or, is the house so structured, and rules so structured that all are prevented from seeing anything other than what may be visible to them from their seat at the table? Then, I am indeed...cheat. For on my rest breaks I looked other places and no one I found then, forbad me. So, am I cheat?

Indeed, one said "why not talk like we are just two guys in a boat?" This seems counter to two peas in a pod shtick. One seems to say "be more like me when we are together, (as though being so) more plain spoken that some substance of understanding can accrue to it." While another seems to say "make no assumption that we are at all, alike". Who bends in such a case...and to what? How much bending is being asked, in either direction toward, or away from a commonality? Be more "this way" or that? Is understanding really the end? Or just manipulation?

I confess, one of the doors I opened on my breaks was all of complete void. Empty of anything I could see. As far as I could see. No one forbad me opening it. Is this a house rule though? No opening of doors? Did I miss the memo?

I came away from that door. I know what I saw in all my not seeing, anything. What was the terror of it remained for some time. The experience "told" me something. The vastness of it can only mean one thing, it is far greater than the house I see in walls, and doors and rooms...it must encompass it. The things in which my eye finds a stop...an end...in perception. The reflection back of things...did not happen there. No form perceived, nothing upon which my eye could fix and say "this is...there". No answer, no echo. And the thing I learned there, even in the midst of its terror was this: the things I seem to know are always in contrast of exclusion to what is unknown, so that even things seemingly known owe their shape against this. But the unknown is infinite. It is not dependent upon the known, for its shape. For, it has none. Yet, it contains all the shapes. By which a man might navigate...even to that "room". And in that, I was comforted. Even in terror. There is an allowance for shapes of things. Even out from that infinite unknowable. This is what I believe I would call, as I believe have many, many others...grace. "Allowance for"...shapes of things given to shapes of things, till in some form of understanding "shapes" are not perceived as the all and only, and what was formerly of mere shape...may become as "real" as that infinite.

So, when at this table in which shape of game seems to take place I hear a man say a thing like (for I will not peruse the posts, or search to find verbatim, but trust instead my memory may be reliable to an end of understanding) this:

"The God I can believe in is the God I am not able in any way to comprehend" (would it be right to say "capture with my understanding?")

I must ask...do I remember correctly? Have I been paying attention? Do I take this speaker...seriously? Are his accusations of my frivolity sound? Or has he too, opened a door in his wanderings...and at least come away...even a little bit...like me?

bullethead · Dec 31, 2017

atlashunter said:

Converting the dying

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