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  #51  
Old 01-21-2014, 11:47 PM
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No. The Muslims in my family are not religious and therefore not idiots.
Well that's good. They are not religious? Why are they called Muslims? Muslim is a religion....but whatever. Perhaps they are just nonpracticing muslims. Born into the religion but not religious. Makes sense to me. So you could say they are Arabic, South Africans, Iraqi, but not muslims because that is a religion. Miscombobulated crapola
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:50 PM
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In Reality Islam is the worse religion in the world concerning Women , saw it everyday.
Women are considered personal property in Islam , they have no rights next to a man or even a male slave.
They must submissive to males or die ,if a muslim woman is raped in Islam it is the woman's fault not the rapist and she will be executed , either by her father of brothers or the law. She must walk behind a man never in front or by his side . Anyone who believes all that garbage about women in Islam having any rights or having a good life.
Maybe if I was a good Muslim woman, I'd receive 17 male virgins as my reward......uh no thanks....LOL.
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  #53  
Old 01-22-2014, 02:12 AM
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Lowjack and Artfuldodger seem to be coming from opposite sides of history. Artful is discussing the text of the quran while lowjack is describing current practices. It appears that in the thousand years between the two viewpoints the underlying culture, male dominance, and biased interpretation have fostered a very different outcome in some muslim groups as described in the quran.

Western Christian history also has its male dominated episodes as well, the effects of which we are still feeling today.

There are so many factors other than the religion itself that determine the gender roles in a society that we cannot simply look at the religion alone and judge it the cause of inequalities or indecencies.
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Old 01-22-2014, 08:52 AM
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Lowjack and Artfuldodger seem to be coming from opposite sides of history. Artful is discussing the text of the quran while lowjack is describing current practices. It appears that in the thousand years between the two viewpoints the underlying culture, male dominance, and biased interpretation have fostered a very different outcome in some muslim groups as described in the quran.

Western Christian history also has its male dominated episodes as well, the effects of which we are still feeling today.

There are so many factors other than the religion itself that determine the gender roles in a society that we cannot simply look at the religion alone and judge it the cause of inequalities or indecencies.
Those are some good points. I was trying to see all things that contributed to the difference between men and women and their genders roles in society.
I would have to start with looking at religion because this is is where it begins. In Christianity God made Adam first and then made Eve as a help mate.
For some reason God thought it best in his plan to have man as the head over woman. I would like some ideas on why God did this?
Christianity isn't the only religion where men are the head. Why would a different God also do this? Especially if this different God doesn't even exist.
Another line of my thoughts was, and this could be more social, is the difference in how Christian countries have changed compared to Muslim countries in women's roles. Christian, Muslim, and Judiasm countries stated out very similar in women's roles in thier prospective societies. Three different religions with roots to the God of Abraham so you would think they would have the same basic beliefs in the roles of women.
Again I'm not trying to imply anything, just learn by exploring. I took Sociology in High School and it kinda opened my eyes to all of the worlds different countries, societies, and religions. We all are very similar in many ways and we are all different in many ways as we all seek basic needs of food, clothing, and shelter.
I believe it is OK to study sociology just as it is OK to study science without loosing touch with Christianity.

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  #55  
Old 01-22-2014, 09:10 AM
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One thing I find interesting and mentioned earlier is the differences in women's roles & dress within Christian denominatons and how this has changed over the years. Women wearing pants to church and not covering their heads anymore is interesting. Women wearing their hair short. Women adorning their bodies with jewelery.
True men's clothing and adornments have also changed but is there a different standard for women than men from God? In other words is it Biblical? Why would it be in God's plan for women to dress and act differently from men?
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  #56  
Old 01-22-2014, 11:23 PM
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The roles of women and men 2000 years ago varied from tribe to tribe. Some tribes, like the Iroquois, placed women in strong leadership roles alongside the men. The Abrahamic tribes, or at least the writers of the Torah specifically, apparently held a different opinion on the role of a woman.

At this point we cannot know what drove that decision. What we should keep in mind is that the bible was not written in isolation but collected from verbal histories gathered from disparate origins. The Abrahamic god was in direct competition with other gods, such as Ba'al. Conflict does more to cement beliefs than just about anything and a more militaristic faith is a more male dominated faith. That faith is under pressure to protect tradition, to protect manhood, and to protect his women.

We see this today, Ultra-conservative christians see themselves as under attack every day and are very firm in their beliefs of the traditional place of a wife. The middle east and africa have seen more years of war than of peace in the last 100 years. That kind of pressure pushes the militant form of islam to the fore and unfortunately for their women, that kind of society is male dominated to the point that to get ahead, men must be more manly then their peers. This results in firm roles for women, less rights for women (example, rape), and severe penalties for anything not manly (homosexuality).

The west's many years of peace (punctuated by horrible wars to be sure but over all peace) have allowed women to step forward and lead in non-militaristic settings, and thus raising the leadership starting point for their daughters each time until we are nearly (arguably not yet) equal.

Throughout history, women have been held back in only one regard, physical strength. Even in prehistoric times women could often out gather what the men could provide by hunting. Without war, their leadership potential can be realized at the same time that men can be relaxed enough to recognize their abilities.

So, the Old Testament was written during conflict and reflects that in its severe militarism. The new testament was a product of comparatively peaceful roman times and reflects that in its kindness. I am less familiar with the societal security of Muhammad's time although as a trader, he seems to also have seen more peace than war. But his followers in the Middle East have seen a lot of war (in the last 100 years) and the teachings/interpretations of their Mullah's reflect the militaristic nature of their times.

If you want a version of Islam that is mostly peaceful and a driver of science, look into the period of Islamic control of Spain, Jerusalem before the Crusades, or of old Cairo.
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  #57  
Old 02-03-2014, 11:21 PM
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1. A wife is a man’s property:

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.- Exodus 20:17
2. Daughters can be bought and sold:

If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.- Exodus 21:7
3. A raped daughter can be sold to her rapist:

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Deuteronomy 22:28-29
4. Collecting wives and sex slaves is a sign of status:

He [Solomon] had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 1 Kings 11:3
5. Used brides deserve death:

If, however the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. Deuteronomy 22:20-21.
6. Women, but only virgins, are to be taken as spoils of war:

Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31:17-18
7. Menstruating women are spiritually unclean:

When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Anyone who touches her bed will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. Anyone who touches anything she sits on will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water....

...The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the Lord for the uncleanness of her discharge. You must keep the Israelites separate from things that make them unclean, so they will not die in their uncleanness for defiling my dwelling place, which is among them. Leviticus 15: 19-31
8. A woman is twice as unclean after giving birth to a girl as to a boy:

A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over.

If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding. When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering. Leviticus 12: 1-8
9. A woman’s promise is binding only if her father or husband agrees:

When a man makes a vow to the Lord or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said. When a young woman still living in her father’s household makes a vow to the Lord or obligates herself by a pledge and her father hears about her vow or pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by which she obligated herself will stand.

But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand; the Lord will release her because her father has forbidden her....

...A woman’s vow is meaningless unless approved by her husband or father. But if her husband nullifies them when he hears about them, then none of the vows or pledges that came from her lips will stand. Her husband has nullified them, and the Lord will release her. Her husband may confirm or nullify any vow she makes or any sworn pledge to deny herself. Numbers 30:1-16
10. Women should be seen and not heard:

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 1 Corinthians 14:34
11. Wives should submit to their husband’s instructions and desires:

Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Colossians 3:18
12. In case you missed that submission thing...:

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:22-24.
13. More submission:

and childbearing as a form of atonement: A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. 1 Timothy 2: 11-15
14. Women were created for men:

For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.1 Corinthians 11:2-10
15. Sleeping with women is dirty:

No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first-fruits to God and the Lamb. Revelation 14:3-4
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  #58  
Old 02-04-2014, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
1. A wife is a man’s property:

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.- Exodus 20:17
2. Daughters can be bought and sold:

If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.- Exodus 21:7
3. A raped daughter can be sold to her rapist:

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Deuteronomy 22:28-29
4. Collecting wives and sex slaves is a sign of status:

He [Solomon] had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 1 Kings 11:3
5. Used brides deserve death:

If, however the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. Deuteronomy 22:20-21.
6. Women, but only virgins, are to be taken as spoils of war:

Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31:17-18
7. Menstruating women are spiritually unclean:

When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Anyone who touches her bed will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. Anyone who touches anything she sits on will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water....

...The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the Lord for the uncleanness of her discharge. You must keep the Israelites separate from things that make them unclean, so they will not die in their uncleanness for defiling my dwelling place, which is among them. Leviticus 15: 19-31
8. A woman is twice as unclean after giving birth to a girl as to a boy:

A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over.

If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding. When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering. Leviticus 12: 1-8
9. A woman’s promise is binding only if her father or husband agrees:

When a man makes a vow to the Lord or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said. When a young woman still living in her father’s household makes a vow to the Lord or obligates herself by a pledge and her father hears about her vow or pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by which she obligated herself will stand.

But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand; the Lord will release her because her father has forbidden her....

...A woman’s vow is meaningless unless approved by her husband or father. But if her husband nullifies them when he hears about them, then none of the vows or pledges that came from her lips will stand. Her husband has nullified them, and the Lord will release her. Her husband may confirm or nullify any vow she makes or any sworn pledge to deny herself. Numbers 30:1-16
10. Women should be seen and not heard:

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 1 Corinthians 14:34
11. Wives should submit to their husband’s instructions and desires:

Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Colossians 3:18
12. In case you missed that submission thing...:

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:22-24.
13. More submission:

and childbearing as a form of atonement: A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. 1 Timothy 2: 11-15
14. Women were created for men:

For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.1 Corinthians 11:2-10
15. Sleeping with women is dirty:

No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first-fruits to God and the Lamb. Revelation 14:3-4
Art,

Have you found any scripture that says these rules are no longer in effect?
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  #59  
Old 02-04-2014, 01:34 PM
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Art,

Have you found any scripture that says these rules are no longer in effect?
I haven't really looked into that. I was just showing the Christian connecton of women's roles. I'm not even saying it's a bad thing. In fact it was a good thing at one time in Christianity even if it's not anymore.
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Old 02-04-2014, 01:53 PM
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I haven't really looked into that. I was just showing the Christian connecton of women's roles. I'm not even saying it's a bad thing. In fact it was a good thing at one time in Christianity even if it's not anymore.
I think there is a very important distinction between society/culture evolving or God changing His rules.

On other threads, many people have taken a firm stand against what they see as a direct assault on the Church by an organized movement aimed at changing the public perception of an act which scripture calls a sin into an accepted practice which is no longer considered sin.
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Old 02-22-2014, 01:48 AM
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Art,

Have you found any scripture that says these rules are no longer in effect?
Most of the new covenant. Not all but some...the 10 commandments is still in effect in my opinion.
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:36 PM
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Most of the new covenant. Not all but some...the 10 commandments is still in effect in my opinion.
What separates the 10 commandments from the rules that artful posted?
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Old 02-27-2014, 11:58 PM
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Centerpin,

Do you have any Muslims in your family? Do you have any good friends that are Muslims? I have some idiot Fundamentalist Christians in my family. Should I judge all Christians by their beliefs?
I have some muslim idiots in my family, so that makes us even....don't it? Your token Christian, my token muslim....not only is she an alcoholic, she's a cocain addict and steals from everyone she can. Should I judge her and not let her come to my house to take what she will, or should I just be a Christian idiot, who lets crack addicts in to steal. Well really I won't...she took my $400 paycheck out of my purse at the hospital while my brother was dying in cicu.....so I guess you and I are even when it comes to being 'prejudice' for no reason at all, eh? Should I judge all muslims by that.....of course not....yet you judge all of us Christians on here, no mercy or grace for our downfalls, just out and out judgemental behaviour on your part all the time....Lord have mercy on your spirit of discernment and your total hatefulness towards any Christian.
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:59 AM
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Art,

Have you found any scripture that says these rules are no longer in effect?
IMHO, those 'judicial laws' were for Israel as a nation. Those laws have been put aside, at least temporarily. In my opinion the 10 commandments are still in effect, I can't find one that 'any' moral person shouldn't abide by, Christian or not. The scripture I find is that Jesus fulfilled the law because the Jews nor us who are grafted in can follow those laws, He died on the cross to take that punishment for us 'all'.

Christ fulfilled all the prophesy in the OT, and not to abolish the law of Moses and/or the 10 commandments but to fulfill it, 'make it so'.

The NT tells us that gentiles are not unclean, nor is pork, and that God is no respecter of persons, male or female, so we can sit together in church, etc. Yet God's 'chosen' were given laws for obedience sake. Jesus is the new convenant between ALL men because the Jews did not believe He was our Saviour....thank you God for giving us ALL a chance to come into the kingdom.

For whosoever believes in Christ will be saved, thank you again God for your mercy and grace to all of us, not only your 'chosen people' but for ALL. The practices of the Jews, even today have not changed, it's God grace on everyone that was extended to the rest of us who are not Jews but were/are not meant for us as gentiles. I could go on and on...but God didn't change, that was/is His plan for salvation....Jesus Christ.
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Old 02-28-2014, 02:28 AM
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Would this be a bad time to ask for an amen?
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:19 PM
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Art,

Have you found any scripture that says these rules are no longer in effect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnwoman View Post
IMHO, those 'judicial laws' were for Israel as a nation. Those laws have been put aside, at least temporarily. In my opinion the 10 commandments are still in effect, I can't find one that 'any' moral person shouldn't abide by, Christian or not. The scripture I find is that Jesus fulfilled the law because the Jews nor us who are grafted in can follow those laws, He died on the cross to take that punishment for us 'all'.

Christ fulfilled all the prophesy in the OT, and not to abolish the law of Moses and/or the 10 commandments but to fulfill it, 'make it so'.

The NT tells us that gentiles are not unclean, nor is pork, and that God is no respecter of persons, male or female, so we can sit together in church, etc. Yet God's 'chosen' were given laws for obedience sake. Jesus is the new convenant between ALL men because the Jews did not believe He was our Saviour....thank you God for giving us ALL a chance to come into the kingdom.
But what scripture says the OT laws have been temporarily suspended?

So Christ fulfilled the prophesies so that the OT would be applicable to gentiles as well, ok. Where in the NT does it say that OT laws don't apply? Does it get specific about gentiles and pork?

And aside from the first 4 commandments, I agree, they are good morality guides that all religions tend to profess. Holding them apart from the other OT rules just because we agree with them and not about pork is fine, we just have to recognize that that is what we are doing.
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Old 02-28-2014, 01:19 PM
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As a means for IMPUTED righteousness the entirety of the law was nailed to the cross along with the body of the One who took it all on and fulfilled it before the Father.
Measuring life by its means (law) will provoke sin awareness, and grace will be of no effect.
Being free from the law a believer is a prisoner of the righteousness of God in Christ in his "inner man", what the scriptures call the new creation. This tends to flip out the religious legalists, who pound the stake of the law into the hearts of their hearers, and trample the Son of God. Call me blinded by grace but, IMO, it's all there in scripture. Scripture is clear that when the commandment 'comes', sin REVIVES and death occurs.
Thanks be to God for the body of the Holy One, to deliver us from the trap of showy, fleshly performed religious works.
I'd rather live by the power of (His) indestructable life (faith, grace) than any foolish command-based liturgy.

That's a wrap for me on this, unless Chapter/verse might be handy with some stuff here.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:24 PM
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But what scripture says the OT laws have been temporarily suspended?

So Christ fulfilled the prophesies so that the OT would be applicable to gentiles as well, ok. Where in the NT does it say that OT laws don't apply? Does it get specific about gentiles and pork?

And aside from the first 4 commandments, I agree, they are good morality guides that all religions tend to profess. Holding them apart from the other OT rules just because we agree with them and not about pork is fine, we just have to recognize that that is what we are doing.

Acts 10:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Romans 11:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

Romans 8:1-3
King James Version (KJV)
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

So you only believe in the first 4? Alrighty then...here they are

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by StriperAddict View Post
As a means for IMPUTED righteousness the entirety of the law was nailed to the cross along with the body of the One who took it all on and fulfilled it before the Father.
Measuring life by its means (law) will provoke sin awareness, and grace will be of no effect.
Being free from the law a believer is a prisoner of the righteousness of God in Christ in his "inner man", what the scriptures call the new creation. This tends to flip out the religious legalists, who pound the stake of the law into the hearts of their hearers, and trample the Son of God. Call me blinded by grace but, IMO, it's all there in scripture. Scripture is clear that when the commandment 'comes', sin REVIVES and death occurs.
Thanks be to God for the body of the Holy One, to deliver us from the trap of showy, fleshly performed religious works.
I'd rather live by the power of (His) indestructable life (faith, grace) than any foolish command-based liturgy.

That's a wrap for me on this, unless Chapter/verse might be handy with some stuff here.
Amen!
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:06 PM
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Acts 10:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
AND BEHOLD, THE POWER OF BACON in our bias towards this passage!!! So here he may have removed all the dietary rules that were placed on the Jews in Leviticus, or so says anyone who loves bacon. Yet line 15 still leaves room for vagueness. It just says don't call common what god has cleansed. It doesn't say that god cleansed pork, all it says is to not call common what god has already cleansed, meaning that Peter's distinction, "i have not eaten anything that is common or unclean" is wrong, there are only unclean and clean in the eyes of the lord, not unclean, clean, common, or noble. Nothing here says he cleansed bacon. So lets look at the broader passage, in the vision, Peter saw, "all manner of four footed creatures, reptiles, and birds". Beef was already available for him to eat, same as many other 4 footed creatures. Reptiles were new, but chicken and birds were not. The passage is STILL too vague so anyone could be right you or jews who keep kosher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnwoman View Post
Romans 11:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
Ok, so this passage confused me with its diction, but here goes, 6 is setting up the conundrum, Deeds alone without the will to act for god, are just deeds so why do them? And if you already have the will of god, then what do we care for deeds?

7 has the answer, Israel did not obtain it (I assume he was seeking for perfection/holiness/good/a sinless life?), the choice to seek it meant that he did obtain it (in the eyes of god?), and the rest were blinded (you're going to have to explain that one to me, blinded to what?)

So if just by attempting to obtain "it" israel accomplished it, well that's nice, so the attempt is what counts, kind of a combination of grace and work.

BUT, the New American Standard Bible says something different,

7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but [b]those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

this is completely different!!! Now it is entirely by grace, and work has nothing to do with it. "those who were chosen got it" while the rest were "hardened" and blinded, to this very day. Well dang, now the attempt isn't even necessary because its only who gets chosen.

The common english bible is the same,

7 So what? Israel didn’t find what it was looking for. Those who were chosen found it, but the others were resistant. 8 As it is written, God gave them a dull spirit, so that their eyes would not see and their ears not hear, right up until the present day.[a]

the New English Translation also has this "chosen" aspect to it,

6 And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear,
to this very day.”

So now I see, the laws don't matter, not even the attempt matters, all that matters is if you are chosen and if you are not, then you are worse than just left out, you are actually hardened against being able to change your mind!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnwoman View Post
Romans 8:1-3
King James Version (KJV)
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
I've heard this one before by people who break the law here on earth and are fine with that since they will still go to heaven. It STILL does not take back the laws the jews follow because those can also be considered the law of the spirit of life, not laws of sin and death since they too are also in the bible. This is more a passage about not following laws on earth that contradict with your faith and say nothing about the old testament laws as those laws have not been (correct me please) or ever were referred to as "laws of sin and death".

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnwoman View Post
So you only believe in the first 4? Alrighty then...here they are
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.' [/quote]

Please go back to my post and reread it. I said the exact opposite. that the first 4 commandments are not moral rules at all but simply to pacify a jealous god. They are useless except to ensure that no other god, namely Ba'al, was not worshiped ESPECIALLY since at the time, the jewish god was competing with a lot of other religions, Ba'al, the romans, even golden calves, etc. All of the other religions say the same things as the last 5 commandments, don't steal, lie, cheat, kill, covet. This was nothing special and cave men living in family groups knew these rules as the best way to live harmoniously with each other way before the jews.

Honoring your father and mother, eh, yeah, the establishment always wants external justification to be right, always. I love my parents, but I knew a lot of other parents who shouldn't be honored.

The first 4 commandments are useless in teaching morality. The others are universal and not special to christianity at all.
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by StriperAddict View Post
As a means for IMPUTED righteousness the entirety of the law was nailed to the cross along with the body of the One who took it all on and fulfilled it before the Father.
Measuring life by its means (law) will provoke sin awareness, and grace will be of no effect.
Being free from the law a believer is a prisoner of the righteousness of God in Christ in his "inner man", what the scriptures call the new creation. This tends to flip out the religious legalists, who pound the stake of the law into the hearts of their hearers, and trample the Son of God. Call me blinded by grace but, IMO, it's all there in scripture. Scripture is clear that when the commandment 'comes', sin REVIVES and death occurs.

Thanks be to God for the body of the Holy One, to deliver us from the trap of showy, fleshly performed religious works.
I'd rather live by the power of (His) indestructable life (faith, grace) than any foolish command-based liturgy.

That's a wrap for me on this, unless Chapter/verse might be handy with some stuff here.
I think this is very healthy and a great way to live. Please don't change. Rules, I don't need your stinkin rules, I will live as moral and christlike a life as I can guided by his example. Period.

I wish more people lived like you.

You have to admit though, this is a very liberal understanding and dissolves any morality argument you have down to, "I, guided by the holy spirit, don't think it is moral" as you are choosing which morality laws to give more merit to. Like working on the sabbath, or gay marriage, or eating pork, etc. As long as it is you deciding, guided by whatever you wish. I'm glad you take personal responsibility for your beliefs.
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:15 AM
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Some of the women wore dresses that showed their ankles and hands and faces, but others were totally covered except a slit for their eyes (well, and their hands when they came out from under those robes).
Were those exposed hands serving food, or taking money at the checkout....LOL
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:17 AM
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Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Man tries to divide, Jesus unites.
If you are free in Christ, you are free indeed!
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:25 AM
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Honoring your father and mother, eh, yeah, the establishment always wants external justification to be right, always. I love my parents, but I knew a lot of other parents who shouldn't be honored.
Well no kiddin'.

My parents were righteous, so that commandment was made for people like me....not for everyone.

Same thing as being submissive to a cocaine dealing husband. God didn't only give us a heart to obey Him, He gave us a brain to rightly divide the Word.
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:37 AM
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AND BEHOLD, THE POWER OF BACON in our bias towards this passage!!! So here he may have removed all the dietary rules that were placed on the Jews in Leviticus, or so says anyone who loves bacon. Yet line 15 still leaves room for vagueness. It just says don't call common what god has cleansed. It doesn't say that god cleansed pork, all it says is to not call common what god has already cleansed, meaning that Peter's distinction, "i have not eaten anything that is common or unclean" is wrong, there are only unclean and clean in the eyes of the lord, not unclean, clean, common, or noble. Nothing here says he cleansed bacon. So lets look at the broader passage, in the vision, Peter saw, "all manner of four footed creatures, reptiles, and birds". Beef was already available for him to eat, same as many other 4 footed creatures. Reptiles were new, but chicken and birds were not. The passage is STILL too vague so anyone could be right you or jews who keep kosher.
Actually God was speaking of the gentiles, once known as the 'unclean'. Saying to go sup with the gentiles and what they eat which has been cleansed....kinda like double My pleasure in them that do believe. They eat pork, they do this or that (they as in gentiles)....they are no longer unclean, they don't obey the laws of Lev, but they do believe/accept Christ, they and what they do has been cleansed...(gentiles)
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