A guy walks into your church ...

hobbs27 · Apr 23, 2017

Artfuldodger said:
Yet you believe everything leading up to 70AD was predestined to even include some election.

You keep saying that. I keep denying it, I've never said everything leading up to the end.

Yes, God's plan for our eternal covenant was set in place long ago, and God directed things to bring it into place...but man was no robot. The Jew's were drawn into the new covenant, they were preached to, they saw the Holy Spirit fall on Gentiles... And many still chose not to believe .

Artfuldodger · Apr 23, 2017

hobbs27 said:
You keep saying that. I keep denying it, I've never said everything leading up to the end.

Yes, God's plan for our eternal covenant was set in place long ago, and God directed things to bring it into place...but man was no robot. The Jew's were drawn into the new covenant, they were preached to, they saw the Holy Spirit fall on Gentiles... And many still chose not to believe .

Then what you are saying is God left the destruction of Jerusalem to chance. I apologize but I thought I remember you saying God used election prior to 70AD.

welderguy · Apr 23, 2017

hobbs27 said:
I've looked at this psalm a few times and I just can't seem to get the context into our discussion. I think I understand what you're saying, that both the righteous and unrighteous glorify God?

I'm just not sure how the unrighteous glorify God since their own demise is to perish. Not worthy of being in the presence of God.

I don't think it's saying that the unrighteous glorify God, but rather, His wrath upon them glorifies Him.
(remember, without faith it's impossible to please God)
There are vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction. That is their purpose and He's sovereign over His creation.

hobbs27 · Apr 23, 2017

welderguy said:
I don't think it's saying that the unrighteous glorify God, but rather, His wrath upon them glorifies Him.
(remember, without faith it's impossible to please God)
There are vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction. That is their purpose and He's sovereign over His creation.

God made a reprobate just to take His wrath out on them so it glorified Him... God is glorifying God in this case, since man can do nothing of his self. Is this how you understand it?

welderguy · Apr 23, 2017

hobbs27 said:
God made a reprobate just to take His wrath out on them so it glorified Him... God is glorifying God in this case, since man can do nothing of his self. Is this how you understand it?

Yes.
Do you think He's unjust in this?

gemcgrew · Apr 23, 2017

hobbs27 said:
Yes, God's plan for our eternal covenant was set in place long ago, and God directed things to bring it into place...but man was no robot.

Of course man is not a robot. God controls man and the robot.

hobbs27 · Apr 23, 2017

welderguy said:
Yes.
Do you think He's unjust in this?

No, I don't think He does it. I'm in agreement with C. S. Lewis statement I posted earlier.

welderguy · Apr 23, 2017

hobbs27 said:
No, I don't think He does it. I'm in agreement with C. S. Lewis statement I posted earlier.

C.S. Lewis says God "took a risk".

You buy into that?

There's no risk with God in my belief.

hobbs27 · Apr 23, 2017

welderguy said:
C.S. Lewis says God "took a risk".

You buy into that?

There's no risk with God in my belief.

How else can man praise and worship God?

Is it praise if God makes us do it? Is it worship if we are just doing what we're forced to do?
C. S. Lewis makes shocking points at times to get his point across. Risky for God? Well He is just that sovereign if He so wishes to be regardless of the limits Calvinism places on Him.

gemcgrew · Apr 23, 2017

hobbs27 said:
How else can man praise and worship God?

God controls the reluctance.

hobbs27 said:
Is it praise if God makes us do it? Is it worship if we are just doing what we're forced to do?

Of course it is. God controls the resistance, force is not required.

hobbs27 · Apr 23, 2017

gemcgrew said:
God controls the reluctance.

Of course it is. God controls the resistance, force is not required.

So it is your position that we worship God on our own freewill, but if we decide not to worship He stops that?

Artfuldodger · Apr 23, 2017

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I'm pretty sure God didn't take a risk that the Word might die on a cross.

gemcgrew · Apr 23, 2017

hobbs27 said:
So it is your position that we worship God on our own freewill, but if we decide not to worship He stops that?

No Hobbs, that would be the position of an egocentric will-worshipper.

My position is that God controls every thing that is a thing.

Artfuldodger · Apr 23, 2017

hobbs27 said:
God made a reprobate just to take His wrath out on them so it glorified Him... God is glorifying God in this case, since man can do nothing of his self. Is this how you understand it?

I was just reading the thread on "How to get power from God to overcome sin." Banjopicker who by the way may be a robot said;

According to the Bible, God has all power, and there is no power that is not ordained of God (1 Chron. 29:11, 12; 2 Chron. 20:6; Ps. 62:11; Zech. 4:6; Rom. 13:1-3). If all power is of God and if Satan's power was given him by God, then it is clear who has all power.

Can't we compare Satan's power to that of the reprobate as to it's origin?

SemperFiDawg · Apr 23, 2017

I find the notion of salvation before repentance a bit absurd. Like CPF, I never knew people even considered it. It's just so non-sensical. A man who doesn't need repentance doesn't need a savior, and a savior who doesn't require repentance is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and thus his existence itself is self contradictory.

hobbs27 · Apr 23, 2017

gemcgrew said:
No Hobbs, that would be the position of an egocentric will-worshipper.

My position is that God controls every thing that is a thing.

Things...

If you love something , set it free. If it comes back it is yours; if it doesn't it never was.

I think this is the chance that Lewis says God has taken.

If a wife in an arranged marriage submitted to her husband only because he was the husband... Would the husband feel loved? I wouldn't.

Artfuldodger · Apr 23, 2017

SemperFiDawg said:
I find the notion of salvation before repentance a bit absurd. Like CPF, I never knew people even considered it. It's just so non-sensical. A man who doesn't need repentance doesn't need a savior, and a savior who doesn't require repentance is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and thus his existence itself is self contradictory.

I needed salvation from the sins I couldn't repent from. If I could repent from sin, I wouldn't need a savior.

welderguy · Apr 23, 2017

hobbs27 said:
Things...

If you love something , set it free. If it comes back it is yours; if it doesn't it never was.

I think this is the chance that Lewis says God has taken.

If a wife in an arranged marriage submitted to her husband only because he was the husband... Would the husband feel loved? I wouldn't.

?? So you're saying God loved some people that were never His ??

?This is man's twisted logic, and is not scriptural.
God foreknew His people, and loved those He foreknew before He created them, and nothing can separate them from His love.

hummerpoo · Apr 23, 2017

The idea of that which God ‘could have’ done involves a too anthropomorphic conception of God’s freedom. Whatever human freedom means, Divine freedom cannot mean indeterminacy between alternatives and choice of one of them. Perfect goodness can never debate about the end to be attained, and perfect wisdom cannot debate about the means most suited to achieve it. The freedom of God consists in the fact that no cause other than Himself produced His acts and no external obstacle impedes Him — that His own goodness is the root from which they all grow, and His own omnipotence the air in which they all flower.
CS Lewis; The problem of Pain

welderguy · Apr 23, 2017

SemperFiDawg said:
I find the notion of salvation before repentance a bit absurd. Like CPF, I never knew people even considered it. It's just so non-sensical. A man who doesn't need repentance doesn't need a savior, and a savior who doesn't require repentance is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and thus his existence itself is self contradictory.

Do you believe that before a man is regenerated, everything about God is foolishness to him?

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