gordon 2
Senior Member
Creation, the fall, Cain and Able.
I've been studying( just beginning) Egyptian & Mesopotamian religion-spiritual beliefs prior and during the days of Moses regards creation and sin in the hopes that this might shed some light on Genesis in scripture.
I take it that although Moses was Hebrew, but especially that he was culturally an Egyptian--due that we have account that he was socially of high cast.
It would be unlikely that a man such has him would not have been well versed in Egyptian spiritual beliefs.
In the creation account of biblical Genesis-- the elements of Egyptian creation accounts* ( *four well know accountings) of creation seem evident in that initially the waters and the divisions of waters, from formlessness, to the division of waters above and below are prominent features in both accounts. Also creation was due to the sound or word of a creator deity...
Next "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place and let the dry ground appear" of Genesis is not unlike the the separation of waters and due this the formation of a pyramid of earth* that comes up from this separation in Egyptian accounts.* Said to be most likely from the flooding effects in the Nile delta whereby silt spits are formed into pyramid forms...
What is different is that the sun (light) and the gods and life come out of this pyramid mound in Egyptian accounts, while in Genesis..."the spirit of God was hovering over the waters" and from his word, " And God said"... first light was separation from dark and a separation of the waters into sky above and gathered to one place below where the "land" is formed and from it life appears or is created.
It seems that in the ancient Egyptian accounts the divine elements are created from the earth, or from an understanding of nature in the Nile River area accustomed to seasonal flooding and the periodic natural creation of fertile deltas etc. All except for some aspects of the Heliopolis account & and especially the Thebes account where the god Amun was " the hidden force behind all things." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_creation_myths
On the other hand in the Genesis account God is immediately identified as prior ( somewhat like Amun) to the beginning of creation, in existence before and the creator of. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." is the first sentence of Genesis. That He would do so in kind by separation of the waters happened twice or once again with Noah. Creation in both accounts at some points touch on water's nature to be formless, bordered and separated.
As to the fall in Genesis the parties in the account seem to me to speak of Moses' autobiography if the account of the temptation reflects Moses life as an Egyptian. Simply, perhaps too simply, in the account of the fall man is tempted by the snake in a garden and the snake* in Egyptian culture is identified with the state and the Pharaoh or political Egypt. *symbol of sovereignty, royalty, deity and divine authority in ancient Egypt.
Considering the interaction that Moses had with the Pharaoh, the push and pull of the snake ( of spirituality, culture and politics) in his personal life and in his lifetime ( life experience) in general seems obvious. It would not be dissimilar to the 40 days in the desert of our Christ where he was tempted by satan or as in Jonah's hesitancy etc...
The social conflicts that confused, that led to be misled, on good end evil were not unlike our spiritual conflicts with society today. ( And the Egyptians believed that they would be judged ( on good and evil or for sins) in the afterlife.)
On sin. Perhaps the greatest sin Moses could have known intimately besides the social sins of the regime he lived under which by default implicated him, was his own personal sin-- but especially one great one. He had killed ( murdered) a man!
Now it was understood that within Egyptian spirituality, in the afterlife there was a judgement, one had to defend himself-herself before deity. And one of the items in this defence was to declare that one had NOT committed murder. This Moses could not do!
Therefore the account of Cain and Able is to me in some ways
autobiographical of Moses. It is the account of a man murdering his kin. It is the account of a man fearing reprisal, seeking protection from his judge and getting it, but left unsettled or to wonder. It is the account of a man of guilt needing exile and eventually a promised land of his own and spiritually a rest. It is the account of a man needing healing and salvation. It is the account of a man who will find hope in the faith and the promises made to Abraham. It is the account of a man who will walk with God by such a faith. It is a the account of one Moses doing as per God's calling on him. ( He is perhaps like our apostle Paul here.)
So the great fall in Moses' life ( a very Egyptian man) was his murder of a man which set him to question the conflicts that permitted him to take another man's life-- even more than questioning injustice and spiritual conflict in society ( although he surely did this). His personal sin sent him into exile, it brought him to Jethro, it brought him to contemplate on sin in general. From Egypt he exiled himself to seek remedy. He went to the wilderness. He found there a father in law named Jethro--priest of Midian, friend of God.
The push and pull ( conflicts) of the culture(s) Egyptian and others he lived in was of significant influence in the answer to Moses' life issues with sin ( good and evil, justice and mercy etc...)-- so much so that God through Moses thought well to chose him and with him His people to set free. It was a new beginning for God's people, just as God had made for a new beginning in Moses' life-- a re-creation from conflict and on to conflict resolution.
And so from the temptation of Eve by the snake in the garden we see clearly that for the issues of false pride and it's false tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that can set even an individual to murder his brother in the name of what is believed right, a significant conflict of human life or existence is related to all.
----------------
I would like your ideas or suggestions of "fall" accounts in ancient religions--those prior to Moses' account but that might have influenced the idea of sin as per the Genesis account as due to a "fall", caused by sin, by gods or man.
Or any comments you might have.
I've been studying( just beginning) Egyptian & Mesopotamian religion-spiritual beliefs prior and during the days of Moses regards creation and sin in the hopes that this might shed some light on Genesis in scripture.
I take it that although Moses was Hebrew, but especially that he was culturally an Egyptian--due that we have account that he was socially of high cast.
It would be unlikely that a man such has him would not have been well versed in Egyptian spiritual beliefs.
In the creation account of biblical Genesis-- the elements of Egyptian creation accounts* ( *four well know accountings) of creation seem evident in that initially the waters and the divisions of waters, from formlessness, to the division of waters above and below are prominent features in both accounts. Also creation was due to the sound or word of a creator deity...
Next "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place and let the dry ground appear" of Genesis is not unlike the the separation of waters and due this the formation of a pyramid of earth* that comes up from this separation in Egyptian accounts.* Said to be most likely from the flooding effects in the Nile delta whereby silt spits are formed into pyramid forms...
What is different is that the sun (light) and the gods and life come out of this pyramid mound in Egyptian accounts, while in Genesis..."the spirit of God was hovering over the waters" and from his word, " And God said"... first light was separation from dark and a separation of the waters into sky above and gathered to one place below where the "land" is formed and from it life appears or is created.
It seems that in the ancient Egyptian accounts the divine elements are created from the earth, or from an understanding of nature in the Nile River area accustomed to seasonal flooding and the periodic natural creation of fertile deltas etc. All except for some aspects of the Heliopolis account & and especially the Thebes account where the god Amun was " the hidden force behind all things." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_creation_myths
On the other hand in the Genesis account God is immediately identified as prior ( somewhat like Amun) to the beginning of creation, in existence before and the creator of. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." is the first sentence of Genesis. That He would do so in kind by separation of the waters happened twice or once again with Noah. Creation in both accounts at some points touch on water's nature to be formless, bordered and separated.
As to the fall in Genesis the parties in the account seem to me to speak of Moses' autobiography if the account of the temptation reflects Moses life as an Egyptian. Simply, perhaps too simply, in the account of the fall man is tempted by the snake in a garden and the snake* in Egyptian culture is identified with the state and the Pharaoh or political Egypt. *symbol of sovereignty, royalty, deity and divine authority in ancient Egypt.
Considering the interaction that Moses had with the Pharaoh, the push and pull of the snake ( of spirituality, culture and politics) in his personal life and in his lifetime ( life experience) in general seems obvious. It would not be dissimilar to the 40 days in the desert of our Christ where he was tempted by satan or as in Jonah's hesitancy etc...
The social conflicts that confused, that led to be misled, on good end evil were not unlike our spiritual conflicts with society today. ( And the Egyptians believed that they would be judged ( on good and evil or for sins) in the afterlife.)
On sin. Perhaps the greatest sin Moses could have known intimately besides the social sins of the regime he lived under which by default implicated him, was his own personal sin-- but especially one great one. He had killed ( murdered) a man!
Now it was understood that within Egyptian spirituality, in the afterlife there was a judgement, one had to defend himself-herself before deity. And one of the items in this defence was to declare that one had NOT committed murder. This Moses could not do!
Therefore the account of Cain and Able is to me in some ways
autobiographical of Moses. It is the account of a man murdering his kin. It is the account of a man fearing reprisal, seeking protection from his judge and getting it, but left unsettled or to wonder. It is the account of a man of guilt needing exile and eventually a promised land of his own and spiritually a rest. It is the account of a man needing healing and salvation. It is the account of a man who will find hope in the faith and the promises made to Abraham. It is the account of a man who will walk with God by such a faith. It is a the account of one Moses doing as per God's calling on him. ( He is perhaps like our apostle Paul here.)
So the great fall in Moses' life ( a very Egyptian man) was his murder of a man which set him to question the conflicts that permitted him to take another man's life-- even more than questioning injustice and spiritual conflict in society ( although he surely did this). His personal sin sent him into exile, it brought him to Jethro, it brought him to contemplate on sin in general. From Egypt he exiled himself to seek remedy. He went to the wilderness. He found there a father in law named Jethro--priest of Midian, friend of God.
The push and pull ( conflicts) of the culture(s) Egyptian and others he lived in was of significant influence in the answer to Moses' life issues with sin ( good and evil, justice and mercy etc...)-- so much so that God through Moses thought well to chose him and with him His people to set free. It was a new beginning for God's people, just as God had made for a new beginning in Moses' life-- a re-creation from conflict and on to conflict resolution.
And so from the temptation of Eve by the snake in the garden we see clearly that for the issues of false pride and it's false tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that can set even an individual to murder his brother in the name of what is believed right, a significant conflict of human life or existence is related to all.
----------------
I would like your ideas or suggestions of "fall" accounts in ancient religions--those prior to Moses' account but that might have influenced the idea of sin as per the Genesis account as due to a "fall", caused by sin, by gods or man.
Or any comments you might have.
Last edited: