Why has Christianity lasted so long?

ambush80

Senior Member
Yeah I cant remember the exact number but that one cost me 50 or 75 Hail Marys'. :rofl:

And glad to see you back around, I was wondering where you were at. Everything ok?


I'm good. Thanks for asking. I've been busy with real things.:banginghe:banginghe:banginghe
 

oldfella1962

Senior Member
Lots of ingredients to that recipe!
As Griz mentioned - adaptability. Its still adapting to and adopting social changes before your/our eyes.
Heck it even adapted to and adopted Pagan practices from the very beginning to bring them into the fold.
Money
Power
Fear
Marketing
Timing
Population density
Advances in communication
Willingness to break its own "rules" in order to adapt.....

kind of like the US Constitution! :cool: it's adaptability ensures it's longevity. As science & education advances it's followers don't have to feel guilty for not taking events literally - maybe the events are symbolic or metaphoric and they just didn't interpret them correctly in past generations. ;)

good point though about (whoever posted it) time and place being a lucky break. The Roman Empire was spreading it's influence and technological advancements far and wide - they provided a big umbrella of relative peace and stability under which to set up shop. After a while millions of people would be exposed to it or in many cases forced to adopt it as part of the culture.

We can see this with Islam in much of Africa right this minute!

If the first Christians had run off to Nepal it would have never expanded much beyond Nepal - they aren't exactly major players on the world stage.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
kind of like the US Constitution! :cool: it's adaptability ensures it's longevity. As science & education advances it's followers don't have to feel guilty for not taking events literally - maybe the events are symbolic or metaphoric and they just didn't interpret them correctly in past generations. ;)

good point though about (whoever posted it) time and place being a lucky break. The Roman Empire was spreading it's influence and technological advancements far and wide - they provided a big umbrella of relative peace and stability under which to set up shop. After a while millions of people would be exposed to it or in many cases forced to adopt it as part of the culture.

We can see this with Islam in much of Africa right this minute!

If the first Christians had run off to Nepal it would have never expanded much beyond Nepal - they aren't exactly major players on the world stage.
it's adaptability ensures it's longevity
That is probably its greatest strength and its greatest weakness.
The more it adapts, the more diluted it gets, the less it is taken seriously, the Bible becomes the book "our ancestors believed".....
Odds are, Christianity will play a part in our culture for many years in the future.
But it will look very , very different.
It already looks very different from just 50 years ago.
 

Israel

BANNED
This:
 

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oldfella1962

Senior Member
A somewhat related factual story that REALLY stuck in my head -
As young teenagers our group was what admittedly could be described as rough/hippie looking. Long hair, jeans/tshirts etc. (early 70s)
However we all believed in God, considered ourselves Christians, attended church, went to Saturday Bible classes etc.
So in the Catholic denomination you could volunteer to "pass the basket" to collect the offerings etc.
So volunteer we did.
Because of our looks (per the members), when we passed the basket, church members started complaining, offerings went down etc.
So I/we started noticing that many of our offers to volunteer were met with "already have enough volunteers this time" etc.
So we finally asked the priests to tell us straight up what the deal was. To the priests credit they were honest with us and told us the real deal.
So this conversation took place in the church with Jesus on the cross hanging everywhere.
So as the priest was explaining the complaints about our long hair etc, I, being the smartbutt of the bunch, pointed to Jesus on the cross and said "you mean the problem is we look like that"?
I will never forget the shades of colors the priests faces turned.

That was the beginning of me thinking "this isn't what its cracked up to be".

still though, allow me to play devil's advocate here:
Jesus had the hair/look that was culturally typical at the time & place he lived/died. If he had shaved his head bald his appearance would be a distraction to his work.
Thus if most of the people in your church leaned toward more "conservative" hair & clothing your appearance could be a negative factor. It's the sad truth - "perception
is reality" when it comes to human psychology.
 

Israel

BANNED
still though, allow me to play devil's advocate here:
Jesus had the hair/look that was culturally typical at the time & place he lived/died. If he had shaved his head bald his appearance would be a distraction to his work.
Thus if most of the people in your church leaned toward more "conservative" hair & clothing your appearance could be a negative factor. It's the sad truth - "perception
is reality" when it comes to human psychology.



A somewhat related factual story that REALLY stuck in my head -
As young teenagers our group was what admittedly could be described as rough/hippie looking. Long hair, jeans/tshirts etc. (early 70s)
However we all believed in God, considered ourselves Christians, attended church, went to Saturday Bible classes etc.
So in the Catholic denomination you could volunteer to "pass the basket" to collect the offerings etc.
So volunteer we did.
Because of our looks (per the members), when we passed the basket, church members started complaining, offerings went down etc.
So I/we started noticing that many of our offers to volunteer were met with "already have enough volunteers this time" etc.
So we finally asked the priests to tell us straight up what the deal was. To the priests credit they were honest with us and told us the real deal.
So this conversation took place in the church with Jesus on the cross hanging everywhere.
So as the priest was explaining the complaints about our long hair etc, I, being the smartbutt of the bunch, pointed to Jesus on the cross and said "you mean the problem is we look like that"?
I will never forget the shades of colors the priests faces turned.

That was the beginning of me thinking "this isn't what its cracked up to be".

Yes. Religion is not at all what it is cracked up to be.
And yes, in that (and some other) traditions "saying prayers" is made a form of penance. Something you have rightly argued is that with which someone "pays".

Yeah I cant remember the exact number but that one cost me 50 or 75 Hail Marys'.

The jungle doesn't give up its entangled easily.

To present, as it were, "heavenly communication" (prayer) as a form of payment to extort from God what is freely given is a great charade. If a thing can adequately place "relationship to God" as burden, and not liberty in the mind and heart, it has succeeded to the full measure it is allowed.
Now, go past its full measure. You already have all you need to pierce the shell.
 
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WaltL1

Senior Member
still though, allow me to play devil's advocate here:
Jesus had the hair/look that was culturally typical at the time & place he lived/died. If he had shaved his head bald his appearance would be a distraction to his work.
Thus if most of the people in your church leaned toward more "conservative" hair & clothing your appearance could be a negative factor. It's the sad truth - "perception
is reality" when it comes to human psychology.
Absolutely. I was pretty clear we were shady looking teenagers.
I was a believer. I was in a church. Supposedly in the presence of God.
I expected more than "perception was reality".
Lesson learned.
 

oldfella1962

Senior Member
Absolutely. I was pretty clear we were shady looking teenagers.
I was a believer. I was in a church. Supposedly in the presence of God.
I expected more than "perception was reality".
Lesson learned.

I get what you are saying, and it is a disappointing lesson in human nature & prejudice.
 

Miguel Cervantes

Jedi Master
Absolutely. I was pretty clear we were shady looking teenagers.
I was a believer. I was in a church. Supposedly in the presence of God.
I expected more than "perception was reality".
Lesson learned.

If the only time you considered yourself to be in the presence of God was when you were in church, that might be a clue there. ;)
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
If the only time you considered yourself to be in the presence of God was when you were in church, that might be a clue there. ;)
A clue of what?
Oh I know, it was ME that that didn't believe correctly.
Typical.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
If the only time you considered yourself to be in the presence of God was when you were in church, that might be a clue there. ;)

God works in ways that is beyond your understanding.
 

Israel

BANNED
A clue of what?
Oh I know, it was ME that that didn't believe correctly.
Typical.


Walt, to be fair, or just, you could consider that.
Is not the basis upon which the claims of those calling themselves believers/christians/disciples of Jesus Christ are so often dismissed here is through a failure to present a perceptible universality of experience? It is not in the presentation of a "too small god" too narrowly "doled out" for experience?

How many times has it been said "a god" so small as to communicate his thoughts and intents to some, or any particular man...is viewed as offense? Am I wrong in believing I hear, in some fashion "the god presented (as perceived by the agnostic of the "christian") is way too small to suffice...?

It is a not unusual discussion found on almost every page..."how could you, a man...be so deceived as to believe you could have any knowledge of a god?"
In some quite funny ways the agnostic (perhaps even borderline atheist) is saying "The only God I could accept would have to be greater than any man could relate in order to suffice to my understanding". No less funny is the endeavor to therefore reduce God to the understanding (and of this believers are sometimes complicit).

You are free to think you are the only one who has seen through the gauzy shroud of religion and even be as convinced as needful that because religion parades the word "Jesus" that to see "all of the false foundation of man's religion" is to see falseness in every aspect of that name/word. And I can easily confess it is beyond any and all of my own merest capabilities to rightly be able to delineate for any other between the person of Jesus Christ, and what makes claims of his exclusive representation. I could not delineate and separate it for myself...it had to be done for me.

Do not think I have not had for a time a sort of fellowship amongst those (and I am easily convinced as I meet them on here, as have so many other brothers) who claim "this is the house of Gawd..."

Probably, like me (and I would even dare say...you) in our search for the truth of Jesus Christ we have found many willing to "shepherd" us but only to the limits of their own experience (as always)...and some have also seen this is a bit less savory when in seeking to claim the knowledge of the ineffable...they have allowed their understanding reduced and constrained by the most temporal of things...bricks/mortar/timber and nails...with a sign outside declaring this thing...the church. This...is the house of Gawd!

In fact the universality of the "religious" experience is almost all too plain...the trying to make a specific time and/or place programmable and identifiable
as only Jesus could pierce it rightly, in word and indeed.


"No longer on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem..." as for "the time"...to be in communion with the Almighty...it is always and only found...now, in spirit and truth.

Yes. To those who would claim it is on "their corner" at their "appointed time" God is found and worshipped, I (and I am also convinced many others) must appear as heretic, unbeliever, renegade to the faith.

The point being...if I lie "here" to you, deal with you falsely, it is of no less consequence than if I stand on a most elaborate carved altar with angels and somber faced ushers and pastors at the height of "their assembly" (in whatever building) and declare something of known (to me) untruth...anymore than it would be of "more consequence" there. Even in the civil proceedings when one is told to "place their hand on the Bible" as though the touching of a perceived sacred thing purifies one, or serves to further "condemn one" if found a perjurer. Yes, religion is a strong presence.

I cannot escape Jesus Christ at any moment or in any place, nor can I make him "more present" at any moment or in any place. The way He has made this particularly known to me is that at any moment...at any time and place...I may be shown a liar. My most sincerely perceived confessions...and my own most casual and offhanded comments or deeds are all up for the weighing, and weighed they are...always...and everywhere.

Do I want to be shown a liar? Who does? But...do I need it? Do I merit it? I think all of creation is in consensus on that one. And so a peculiar balance is presented... would I suffer the destruction of all to keep my own 'integrity of lie'...or 'allow' creation its continuance? Yes, I always "opt for myself".

What a curious gift repentance is. It is all a liar cannot expect...light.
 
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