"My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?"

marketgunner · Dec 20, 2017

1gr8bldr said:
Point is, it implys Jesus had faith. Faith of Christ

We exercise faith in Christ not Christ's faith. Christ gave us the faith to exercise ( faith is gift of God) ( I guess since He gave Faith to us, he had it)
We are confident in Christ completed work , not that He has Faith to complete the work. It is finished and accepted by God, What is Christ's faith toward, what does He hope for?

marketgunner · Dec 20, 2017

1gr8bldr said:
I'm don't know why anyone insists that Jesus created. All those "by" regarding "created by Jesus" are not by. They are "through". Through implies agent [agent of the new creation]. If I recall, through is Si and by is ev. Look at the greek. Biblehub is great. Any verse, click the greek on the top bar to see the break down. You can also see clicking on the left side bar the word, it's definition, it's number of uses, and other verses where it was used. The use of "by" in place of "through" is simply corruption. Trying to win as would democrats or republicans might.

i am not trying to win anything.

Yes , I use BlueLetterBible a lot.

marketgunner · Dec 20, 2017

Artfuldodger said:
I don't see it that way at all. It implies that Jesus had faith. Jesus had the faith to become the sacrifice.

He was obedient to become the sacrifice, He did not hope to become the sacrifice,

Jhn 17:4

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

1gr8bldr · Dec 20, 2017

marketgunner said:
God chose to deal with us in three was , God, the singular, God in the limited physical body and God who is to deal with us universally.

Jhn 1:1

¶
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 17:21

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me

1Jo 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Jhn 16:7

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jhn 16:7

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jhn 3:13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

100% God 100% man.

John 1;2, "He was with God in the beginning. " The "He" they used should be "this" hmmmmm, the set up for what I have been saying, that the translators ruined the analogy John was making by inserting "he" before John rolled the analogy to Jesus. And God said, let there be light, John is making an analogy that Jesus is the light, required by all things. The He that they falsely used is translated like this. this many times

afterward* (3), especially (1), fact (2), follow* (1), here* (1), hereafter* (1), man (1), now* (1), one (2), one whom (1), partly* (1), person (1), present (1), same (1), so (1), so then* (1), so* (1), some (2), such (2), therefore* (16), these (179), these...things (1), these men (10), these people (1), these things (192), this (737), this man (56), this man's (2), this one (4), this reason* (1), this thing (2), this way (1), this woman (4), this* (1), this...thing (1), those (2), those things (1), very (3), very thing (2), who (2), whom (1).

1gr8bldr · Dec 20, 2017

marketgunner said:
i am not trying to win anything.

Yes , I use BlueLetterBible a lot.

LOL, sorry, I actually meant the translators were trying to win. Not you. I enjoy the discussion.

Artfuldodger · Dec 20, 2017

Jhn 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Two points. One being unity. Father in Jesus and Jesus in the Father. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father. Wow' what unity. I don't see Trinity, I see Unity, Oneness.

"that they also may be one in us"
Even more unity. The disciples were not part of the Trinity yet Jesus wanted them to have the exact same unity he had with his Father. The image that he had of his Father. He wanted the disciples to share this, now how could this even remotely be possible if he was God? Do we become God? When we see Jesus as he is?

Second;
"that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

over and over Jesus constantly reminds us of his God and our God. That his God sent him. That he is doing the will of his God. That he is using the power of his God to perform miracles.

That his God will resurrect him. That he will ascend and sit at the right hand of his God. That his God gives him everything; power, kingdom, life, etc.

Artfuldodger · Dec 20, 2017

marketgunner said:
He was obedient to become the sacrifice, He did not hope to become the sacrifice,

Jhn 17:4

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Again he completed the work his Father gave him. He glorified his Father. His Father was his God. He was obedient to his Father. It was his Father's glory. It was his Father's plan. It was his Father's will. It was his Father's power. I would venture to say Jesus thought it was all from his Father. That he was just the human image.

Artfuldodger · Dec 20, 2017

Faith comes from God in the form of a Gift. Jesus had faith. I can only assume that this faith came from his Father and given to the man and his son Jesus.
God didn't give himself faith. Jesus had faith. Maybe it was the God part giving the man part faith but Jesus had faith in God his Father. This is way more than obedience.

It's the faith of Jesus.

Israel · Dec 21, 2017

Two things strike me as I pursue the Lord, how unlike me He is, and how much like me, He is.

The second of course, almost sounds heretical. He alone is the preeminent One, and here no matter of comparison is fitting or beneficial. In fact one might venture to say only Jesus alone is able to deliver from the pains found in comparisons. Yet, Jesus is plain in so many things I can't help but say/recognize..."Hey, I know a man just like that".

I know a man who is firmly learning "I can do nothing of myself", despite many misadventures when once believing contrary. I know a man who marvels when he finds faith...where he didn't expect it. A man who (though once thinking he had all the answers, and should) has no shame at all in saying "only the Father knows". A man absolutely in need of being shown. "The Father will show him greater works..."
And one who has sometimes found himself in a place where his own soul is so troubled he would also describe it as "sorrowful to death."

Now, in all of this there is no comparison, there is no assumption that the depths of these experiences are at all equal to the Lord. But there is a similitude recognizable. And I am confident that many of you also share the same. How much "like us" is Jesus Christ, yet never losing his utter uniqueness.

And this is where grace is also found. To me at least. Jesus never "had to" let us in on those things of Himself men so often find weak, or shameful, or speak to a deeply personal need.

But Jesus does this, without shame, almost seeming to go out of his way to make sure we understand he could be troubled, could walk as one needing to be led, needing to be shown. Finding things in a "marvel" that speaks to a willingness to be surprised. And as we walk, perhaps, we learn He has done this specifically, as encouragement to us. And though it is surely true Jesus never had any cause to a confession of sin (as we might, and do, as needed) His confessions are the very things that go to the greatest degree of relieving us, if heeded, of that.

How much of pitfalls are avoided when we simply accept our own need? How many are found when by pretense or presumption we attempt to show "we have it all together..." or are completely sufficient to ourselves? How often in those are amends later required? And bot that seeking amends is a bad thing...but how much more to find a way that reduces our footprint of injury...that later requires amend?

Paul found that safety in boasting of his weaknesses, his necessities, infirmities. And in so, found something else..."that the power of God might rest upon him". That place of which the natural man shuns, of utter weakness and need, instead buttressing himself with lies and pretenses, is why the power of God can never be experienced by him, clothing himself as it were with all of falsehood. No man without Christ, can begin to believe that in the manifest admission of such weakness, God's power is seen. No "natural" man can ever care to go there, or desire to be seen there. Fools are all he sees. And God help us, preserve us, from seeking to be wise in their eyes.

We forfeit something too precious when caught up in seeking to make a sense of man's reasoning that is toward an ascension completely apart from the cross, ashamed of it. Yes, it makes no sense at all that the One who never needed it in any obligation save love would take up the thing that allowed Himself manifestly presented as all that God does not love.

His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Deut. 21:23

How I had struggled in those verses, not seeking a reconciliation by denying any part, revising any part, or diminishing any part.

How could this be, and stand? How could any...yes...any...who knew the scripture (Jew especially) not find himself absolutely and rightly excluding himself from the faith (or as he could see it...the presumption...of Jesus Christ) to occupy that place of cursedness...and yet be the Messiah? Yes, it would take a miracle to believe. For it would seem to the Jew...as surely "a sign"...that this man was under God's wrath. And so that squaring of "how could this...be that?" requires a light and interaction with God in the Holy of Holies, alone for resolution.

And this is what I find not only in that interaction, but also, no less, in the scriptures. It screams at me now, not shrilly, but as the one overarching query apart from man and his opinions, apart from all witness except the One who asks. The question comes from those few words found that alone establish what follows subsequent to them:

And if a man has committed a sin worthy of death, and he is to be put to death, and you hang him on a tree:

And if a man has committed a sin worthy of death

All that follows...of being accursed hinges upon that right there.
I cannot go to men to square it (for some will say, undoubtedly, I deny the scripture)...but in God alone, and from God alone comes this question...surely to me, if not to any other...in Spirit

"Do you see any fault in that man, any sin, worthy of death...anywhere?"

The entrance into all agreement is not an answer any may give for any other...each man answers for himself. And may not even say, is forbidden to say, what one considers is the "right" answer.

But as surely as I believe I have heard this question...from One alone, I really do not doubt each man hears it. And each man answers from a place where he cannot lie.

marketgunner · Dec 21, 2017

Artfuldodger said:
Again he completed the work his Father gave him. He glorified his Father. His Father was his God. He was obedient to his Father. It was his Father's glory. It was his Father's plan. It was his Father's will. It was his Father's power. I would venture to say Jesus thought it was all from his Father. That he was just the human image.

He was an obedient a a Human to the Father, not just an hollow image,

Col 1:19

¶
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 1:20

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21
¶
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

marketgunner · Dec 21, 2017

Artfuldodger said:
Faith comes from God in the form of a Gift. Jesus had faith. I can only assume that this faith came from his Father and given to the man and his son Jesus.
God didn't give himself faith. Jesus had faith. Maybe it was the God part giving the man part faith but Jesus had faith in God his Father. This is way more than obedience.

It's the faith of Jesus.

but God does not require to have faith, He does not suppose or guess or hope.

marketgunner · Dec 21, 2017

Israel said:
Two things strike me as I pursue the Lord, how unlike me He is, and how much like me, He is.

The second of course, almost sounds heretical. He alone is the preeminent One, and here no matter of comparison is fitting or beneficial. In fact one might venture to say only Jesus alone is able to deliver from the pains found in comparisons. Yet, Jesus is plain in so many things I can't help but say/recognize..."Hey, I know a man just like that".

I know a man who is firmly learning "I can do nothing of myself", despite many misadventures when once believing contrary. I know a man who marvels when he finds faith...where he didn't expect it. A man who (though once thinking he had all the answers, and should) has no shame at all in saying "only the Father knows". A man absolutely in need of being shown. "The Father will show him greater works..."
And one who has sometimes found himself in a place where his own soul is so troubled he would also describe it as "sorrowful to death."

Now, in all of this there is no comparison, there is no assumption that the depths of these experiences are at all equal to the Lord. But there is a similitude recognizable. And I am confident that many of you also share the same. How much "like us" is Jesus Christ, yet never losing his utter uniqueness.

And this is where grace is also found. To me at least. Jesus never "had to" let us in on those things of Himself men so often find weak, or shameful, or speak to a deeply personal need.

But Jesus does this, without shame, almost seeming to go out of his way to make sure we understand he could be troubled, could walk as one needing to be led, needing to be shown. Finding things in a "marvel" that speaks to a willingness to be surprised. And as we walk, perhaps, we learn He has done this specifically, as encouragement to us. And though it is surely true Jesus never had any cause to a confession of sin (as we might, and do, as needed) His confessions are the very things that go to the greatest degree of relieving us, if heeded, of that.

How much of pitfalls are avoided when we simply accept our own need? How many are found when by pretense or presumption we attempt to show "we have it all together..." or are completely sufficient to ourselves? How often in those are amends later required? And bot that seeking amends is a bad thing...but how much more to find a way that reduces our footprint of injury...that later requires amend?

Paul found that safety in boasting of his weaknesses, his necessities, infirmities. And in so, found something else..."that the power of God might rest upon him". That place of which the natural man shuns, of utter weakness and need, instead buttressing himself with lies and pretenses, is why the power of God can never be experienced by him, clothing himself as it were with all of falsehood. No man without Christ, can begin to believe that in the manifest admission of such weakness, God's power is seen. No "natural" man can ever care to go there, or desire to be seen there. Fools are all he sees. And God help us, preserve us, from seeking to be wise in their eyes.

We forfeit something too precious when caught up in seeking to make a sense of man's reasoning that is toward an ascension completely apart from the cross, ashamed of it. Yes, it makes no sense at all that the One who never needed it in any obligation save love would take up the thing that allowed Himself manifestly presented as all that God does not love.

His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Deut. 21:23

How I had struggled in those verses, not seeking a reconciliation by denying any part, revising any part, or diminishing any part.

How could this be, and stand? How could any...yes...any...who knew the scripture (Jew especially) not find himself absolutely and rightly excluding himself from the faith (or as he could see it...the presumption...of Jesus Christ) to occupy that place of cursedness...and yet be the Messiah? Yes, it would take a miracle to believe. For it would seem to the Jew...as surely "a sign"...that this man was under God's wrath. And so that squaring of "how could this...be that?" requires a light and interaction with God in the Holy of Holies, alone for resolution.

And this is what I find not only in that interaction, but also, no less, in the scriptures. It screams at me now, not shrilly, but as the one overarching query apart from man and his opinions, apart from all witness except the One who asks. The question comes from those few words found that alone establish what follows subsequent to them:

All that follows...of being accursed hinges upon that right there.
I cannot go to men to square it (for some will say, undoubtedly, I deny the scripture)...but in God alone, and from God alone comes this question...surely to me, if not to any other...in Spirit

"Do you see any fault in that man, any sin, worthy of death...anywhere?"

The entrance into all agreement is not an answer any may give for any other...each man answers for himself. And may not even say, is forbidden to say, what one considers is the "right" answer.

But as surely as I believe I have heard this question...from One alone, I really do not doubt each man hears it. And each man answers from a place where he cannot lie.

Duet 21"23 It deals with properly burying the dead quickly to prohibit diseases from infecting the people. It is for the preservation of Israel .

Jhn 19:31

The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

He took our shame and our punishment. He became sin.

But He completed the Law and the requirements.

Spineyman · Dec 21, 2017

marketgunner said:
Duet 21"23 It deals with properly burying the dead quickly to prohibit diseases from infecting the people. It is for the preservation of Israel .

Jhn 19:31

The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

He took our shame and our punishment. He became sin.

But He completed the Law and the requirements.

And not one bone was broken as per the prophecy.

"My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?"

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