Bulldogs

This is a quote from a previous thread. " Now, Bulldog is a very generic term, it literaly means dog who works with bulls."

Also, ( I am not a bulldog historian nor had much to do with them since I was a child) The recipe for making a treedog/coondog when I was a kid was 1/4 bird, 1/4 bull and half hound. In the 1950s till today, my uncle, and now my cousin owns about 500 acres of "higher ground" and about three thousand acres of swamp you cannot walk across. No way. You can swim and skid along but you cannot walk. They plant greens patches in Fall and the herd comes out in winter to graze. The stock yard man brings his catahoulas and catch dogs and my uncle had a couple of bulldogs and they would get after them and make them get in a pen. Then they would make them load in a trailer. His bulldogs were brown brindle with white markings. They did not catch an ear, they caught a nose on a bull. How did they know a bull from a cow?

I had a small fox pen across from my house to train running pups in on fox. Then somebody turned acouple of wild pigs in it and wanted to start hog dog pups. They chased the around like foxes and caught most out but left two in. I carried a three legged dog that would twig on deer and look at me and then go around and jump the deer back at me. And I had a 20 lb fiest that would not tree a lick. So we went walking in the hog pen and the three legged dog started twigging and looking at me and the fiest came running. Sure enough, a pig jumped out from beneath a top and they caught it in 50 yards . Neither had ever seen a pig, but both had an ear and held on. Now you tell me how a dog just knows where to grab and what to do automatically?????

Scrapy said:

This is a quote from a previous thread. " Now, Bulldog is a very generic term, it literaly means dog who works with bulls."

Also, ( I am not a bulldog historian nor had much to do with them since I was a child) The recipe for making a treedog/coondog when I was a kid was 1/4 bird, 1/4 bull and half hound. In the 1950s till today, my uncle, and now my cousin owns about 500 acres of "higher ground" and about three thousand acres of swamp you cannot walk across. No way. You can swim and skid along but you cannot walk. They plant greens patches in Fall and the herd comes out in winter to graze. The stock yard man brings his catahoulas and catch dogs and my uncle had a couple of bulldogs and they would get after them and make them get in a pen. Then they would make them load in a trailer. His bulldogs were brown brindle with white markings. They did not catch an ear, they caught a nose on a bull. How did they know a bull from a cow?

I had a small fox pen across from my house to train running pups in on fox. Then somebody turned acouple of wild pigs in it and wanted to start hog dog pups. They chased the around like foxes and caught most out but left two in. I carried a three legged dog that would twig on deer and look at me and then go around and jump the deer back at me. And I had a 20 lb fiest that would not tree a lick. So we went walking in the hog pen and the three legged dog started twigging and looking at me and the fiest came running. Sure enough, a pig jumped out from beneath a top and they caught it in 50 yards . Neither had ever seen a pig, but both had an ear and held on. Now you tell me how a dog just knows where to grab and what to do automatically?????

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I also am not an authority, but you have lot of the best kind of knowledge since you speak of what you have seen.

One thing that reduced the amount of the old bulldog and also WE stock is that they were cross-breed with other dogs to make superior hybrids. The first generation cross is quite good, but further crosses of the first generation cross are not that predictable. Everyone from pit dog fighters to cattlemen had their favorite crosses.

After reading this whole thread, I now feel like an idiot for hijacking it.
I didn't realize the true content of it. I thought that it was just a plain old show your Bulldog thread. Sorry about that and thanks for a very interesting and informative thread.

Crispy said:

After reading this whole thread, I now feel like an idiot for hijacking it.
I didn't realize the true content of it. I thought that it was just a plain old show your Bulldog thread. Sorry about that and thanks for a very interesting and informative thread.

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Since the OP was looking into the WE, the American Bulldog is a part of that story and needs to be mentioned. This is an old thread and the OP has not yet offered any more information or questions.
Then you have the Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog which has a bit of controversy about it and is a part of the WE story. There are very strong differences of opinion about its origin. But the real important question for a dog owner is how good was the kennel that produced their particular bulldog and whether it was in the beginning a chance cross between a WE and a Catahoula or not is maybe not so important.
Here is one version of the Alapaha story: Mars Hill Kennels > A Brief History of the Alapaha Blue-Blood Bulldog see: http://www.oldsouthernbulldogs.com/news/a-brief-history-of-the-alapaha-blue-blood-bulldog/
Lana did suffer serious burns from a house fire.

On Tuesday morning, April 28, 1992, Ms. Lane was in her home, when it caught fire. As a result of that fire, Ms. Lane’s Foundation sire, "Lana’s Marcelle Lane", ARF Reg. No.: ABBB12M, died, and, Ms. Lane was badly burned [3rd degree burns over 30% of her body]. From that day forward, Ms. Lane was under a doctor’s care, for she suffered a great deal from her burns and disfigurement. To help relieve her pain, her doctor prescribed pain pills, as well as other prescription drugs, that affected her memory and attitude towards others. As a result of her memory loss,......

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I have been told by one breeder that the fire was not an accident and that someone that she had mistreated set the fire. Lana was quite controversial, but the line of dogs that she bred still remains today. Crossing catahoulas into bulldogs has been done before and obviously a lot people like the result. And like I said the Alapaha blue blood bulldog is also part of the WE story.

the afore-mentioned bulldog that Ms. Lane saved, to the best of our research, contains canine genes coming from the early "Colonial American Bulldog" [which is the original "American Bulldog" or "Old English White", that was brought to America by the 17th century colonists], and other "Old World Canine Genes", that make up today’s "American Pit Bull" and "Catahoula Leopard". However, it’s the dominate "Colonial American Bulldog" gene that makes this dog so great; but, needless-to-say, it is the recessive gene colors of the "American Pit Bull" and "Catahoula Leopard" that add to the dog’s beauty. You can see these recessive colors appear in her "Blue Merle" & "Silver Dollar" Alapahas".

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Heather Wilkins says about the same as the above ancestry of the Alapaha.
Marker R. Nicholas Sr., was Lana's Trainer and has a several lines of Bulldog. If you want another view on southern bulldogs and WE see this link: http://975918329886551044.weebly.com/about-us.html

Of course do not fail to read Heather's website at: http://oweps.weebly.com/the-carr-white-english.html
While I do not like to type that much I thought another view was needed to this thread and this may be more than most really want to know about the WE.

Cur'n Plott Man said:

Curr n Plott man,
400lbs? Golly that's a lot bigger than even the early descriptions of Tibetan Mastiffs being big as pony's with 14 inch long muzzles. Where did you hear or read that? Id love to see it just to have another referrence point.

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I have a ALL BREEDS book that my wife picked up at a Pet World that has this description in it

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.[/QUOTE]
Many books and also much internet material is full of misinformation.
When possible personal experience, reliable documents, or that of people that are reliable is the best source especially when talking about american dogs derived from "Mastiff types sources". Some things will likely never be proven to the satisfaction of scientific scrutiny. For instance I can not tell the origins of or even define what a pitbull is. Plenty is written on it and a lot of it is contradictory. What I can say is we know when properly bred they make some of the best dogs a man could have for everything from hog hunting to be a personal playmate and protector of a child. Companion for children is shown by by the dog (Actually dogs) on the "Little Rascals" which was a pit bull. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_the_Pup

was an American Staffordshire Terrier character in Hal Roach's Our Gang comedies (later known as The Little Rascals) during the 1930s. Otherwise known as "Pete, the Dog With the Ring Around His Eye", or simply "Petey"

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Great research, I feel the same. Good write up!

I sure hate to revive such an old thread but I'm hoping Rage will see this and comment. Rage the two pictures you posted to this thread, can you tell me those dogs names please sir? I believe I have a female out of your family's old line of white English. Again sorry to revive such an old thread.

Happily the white english is still around here. I grew up with them, never seen one with short legs. almost all the farms had them. very intelligent and good hog dogs. They are getting harder to find. they originally came up from st augustine. very intelligent and very protective of children. Ive seen a few that would run around 100 pounds or so.

Yes sir they sure are! Very different temperament from most American bulldogs and pits. There seems to be more of them still around in Georgia than here in Al. I got my girl from Ga. pretty positive that my girl comes from the line of dogs Rage's family raised. Which is why I was hoping he would see my post and comment. I'd like to talk to him.

My Alanos are used for catching hogs with my Plotts. All my Alanos are from Spain from the best hunting stock. These dogs trace back to the 3rd century when they were brought by the Alani tribe. These dogs have been documented with my family since at least the 1300's. They were also brought with ancestors from my family to Cuba, Florida, and Louisiana on military expeditions and to settle in the 1600's. My family brought Alanos not Mastifs. In the 1980's a group of Alano aficionados brought back the breed to decent numbers by rounding up the best old blood stock that was still being used in the northern mountains to catch and hold the wild cattle. I have a great historical article written more than a century ago from English Bulldog experts that the English Bull dog orginated from their importation of Alanos. There is also a great research book recently published in Spain that has all the old breeds as they describe the history of the Alano and all the breeds that came from them.

Interesting historical article 1901.
1901 I am happy to take an opportunity of exhibiting the
interest I take in Bulldog subjects by bringing to your
readers' notice a most valuable discovery made by my
old friend Mr. John Proctor, of Antwerp. He and I have for many years had the honor to appear in the character of English judges at the Paris Dog Show. No feature in this delightful exhibition has more in- terest for us as Britons than the classes which remind us of our national breed, the Bulldog. It is my belief that the Bulldog is but one member of the important family of the Molussus, which is recognizable by the truncated muzzle. I do not claim any originality for
this opinion, but I do admire myself for having the courage to brave the wrath of the home fancy by say- ing so. We have no generic name for this family, but
in France they are called Dogues, whence we get our own word dog, but we have corrupted the meaning of it. The heads of the group are the Spanish Bulldog, the dogue de Bordeaux, and the little toy oddities of Paris, bred and reared by Lutetian bootmakers, and lastly, the English Bulldog. It is clear to me as an unprejudiced eynologist, and entirely unaffected by what previous authorities have said on the subject, that the original home of the breed was Spain, where the dog was "made" for a special mission. The fair name of Spain always was, and still is, associated with sport in which the bull plays the leading role. The Spaniard fashioned a dog to suit this sport, with a firm strong body, stoutlegs, a short neck of powerful muscle, a big head with a wide mouth and prominent upturned underjaw, so that the dog could still breathe while re- taining his grip, and the weight would tire out the bull which was unable to fling off the dog. From Spain dogs of this kind migrated to France; it is only a short excursion to Bordeaux, where the services of the dog were in demand as fighting dogs and for dog and donkey contests. Then they traveled up to Paris which has always had an eye for the artistic, so they bantamized the breed to the modern Toy Bulldog. From France the breed came over to England, and with several other imported varieties, took their place among what modern writers describe as the indigenous breeds of Great Britain. This is a theory carefully thought out to suit those who maintain that the Bull- dog is a British product. Personally, I believe that the only breeds indigenous to the British Isles are the Irish and Scottish Terriers. In English history there Is no mention of the Bull- dog before the reign of Queen Elizabeth, and I find it quite easy to assume that at a period when the rela- tions between England and Spain were exceedingly strained, and Britannia's sea-dogs were plundering the Spanish coast and worrying their galleons, that among the loot were these doughty dogs. Certain it is that the sport of these animals would take the Virgin Queen's masculine fancy. It is unfortunate that though due credit has been accorded to the gallant knight who about the same time imported the potato, it is still unknown to England whether it was a Drake or a Frobisher, or which enterprising captain it was, who placed his country under a far greater obligation by bringing over from the enemy the animal which
has become our national dog. To approach a little closer the main object of this communication. When the late Mr. Frank Adcock many years ago stirred the Bulldog fancy to its depths by the introduction of the Spanish Bulldogs Toro and others, the English fancy turned upon him, and when he courageously put his dogs on the show bench he was told they were "inventions,
" no pure breed at all, but the result of a freakish experiment with Mastiffs, Bulldogs and perhaps other varieties. The unbelief and prejudice were so strong, and the literary onslaughts so violent, that nobody for years after attached any value to Mr. Adcock's claims, which were simply that his importations were—Bull- dogs. A long time after I had the good fortune to en- counter, in the Paris show, a magnificent class of dogs called the Dogues de Bordeaux; smaller than a Mastiff but more bulky, brown-red in color, mostly Dudleys, with Bulldog skulls, but the heads larger and more wrinkled; and to my mind these animals were plainly the Spanish Bulldog, or its first cousin. I boomed the variety in the Stock-Keeper, wh ose readers had never seen nor heard of them before, and the enterprising Messrs. Sam Woodiwiss and H. E. Brooke subsequently
imported a few fine specimens and showed them here. Our English fanciers just dropped short of heaving a brick at them, but those who had eyes to see, and were willing to see, recognized that they were in the pres- ence of the ancestors of the English Bulldog. We English are unwilling to be taught anything about
animals, and when I imported Toy Bulldogs from Paris my countrymen glanced askance at them until I found the dwarfs an English ancestor or two. As a matter of fact, I think the French Toys owe little or nothing to English descent, but I propitiated my critics. A French friend assured me that these dogs were called Boule-dogs from the round shape of the head, and that their owners did not know the word "bull" nor its meaning. Well, to return. I am quite
satisfied that the Bulldog owes its origin to Spain. Mr. Adcock 's importations date only some ten or fifteen years back, but if I can show that the Bulldog existed
in Spain in the early part of the seventeenth century it will, I suppose, support my contentions. When Mr. Proctor and I were in Paris last year my friend had the good fortune to obtain a most valuable piece of evidence on this point. He found an old bronze plaque. Everybody must admit that this is the head of a cropped
Bulldog—Spanish, Bordeaux or English is immaterial;; It is a Bulldog. The description above the head reads: Dogue De Burgos, Espagne. Burgos is the principal town of the province of Old Castile, in Spain, and was noted for the breeding of dogs used in the arena. The date is 1625, and the name of the artist "Cazalla." The appearance of tlie plaque indicates its age. and everything points to the probability of its being genuine. Anyhow, I give all the particulars, so that whoever cares to may make inquiries. Mr. Proctor purchased the medallion in Paris from Mons. A. Provandier, a well known breeder of Toy Bulldogs, who relates that he bought it one Sunday in the Paris Dog Market from a trainer of dogs who visited the market. This man stated that he had it from a bric-a-brac dealer in the Paris Gingerbread Fair, at which time there are always two or three thousand dealers in art ironwork and all sorts of such things, standing by their booths on the roadside. Mr". Proctor took his find to a connoisseur, who pronounced it authentic, and it was then that I decided, with the cwner's kind consent, to publish it in England for the benefit of the English Bulldog fancy, who cannot fail to recognize its historic value and to' acknowledge the light it throws upon a question which so violently agitated the kennel world when Mr. Adcock brought it forward. I am indeed happy in this wise to be able to hand down Mr. Proctor's name and my own to an appreciative Bulldog posterity.—George B. Krehl. honorary member of the Bulldog Club, In Stork-Keeper.

If I could figure out how to post a picture I will post the article.

This is all very interesting!! I have long believed the the old southern brindle bulldog came over here through Cuba with the Spanish conquistadors!
However it will take some more research on my part before I'm sold on the idea of the original bulldog of England actually coming from Spain Everything I've ever read about the origins of the original bulldog says it was descended from smaller white Alaina's and the bulldogs of France wee descended from the much larger mastif. This is good stuff though! Thank you for posting it!

I have seen Fla curs catch better than what some of these guys claim are white English. A catch dog that don't hold well is a disaster waiting to happen.

I agree. I don't have the evidence but I believe some Florida curs have Spanish Alanos as ancestors. I know my family has been in Florida St. Augustine & Pensacola since they were Spanish possessions. They had Alanos in Florida.

grouper throat said:

I have seen Fla curs catch better than what some of these guys claim are white English. A catch dog that don't hold well is a disaster waiting to happen.

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Grouper throat you sound like you don't believe there is such a thing as a White English. However what you say about them catching hog is for the most part true. Consider this before you turn your nose up at them, THEY WERE NEVER BRED TO BE A CATCH DOG. Fact of the matter is very few people or families ever had a any type of real breeding program. These were bred to be farm and utility dogs. That means they can catch, some better than others. Now if someone back in the day had took a notion to get the ones that excelled at catching and holding hogs and bred them like hog hunters do today, then you would have a generous amount of hog catching White English. Everyone knows the dogs that catch the best are the ones that have been bred for that

I have a pair of bulldogs that are about 18 months old and want to give them to someone that has room for them. Grandchildren wanted these and played with them last year and have lost interest in the dogs and I have no where to keep them. I between Ellaville and Americus.

rage said:

the white english dogs had been in my family over 50yrs..my grandpapa had them on his farm and my daddy still got the same bloodline.they are very laid back and loves kids but they are very good guard dogs of their yard.they are very smart..back 20 yrs ago that is all we caught with was a big male around 75lb..they are good size but still can get around..if i have time i will take some pics over the weekend and post them of some of ours..aint never heard of many of them being register..

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Hello do you all still have any of your White English Bulldogs?

barnetmill said:

I know I am resurrecting and an old thread, but I am able to answer some of the OP's questions about white english dogs since I have two of them. Note they were generally not called bulldogs and likely the name White English predates the way the term is now used. Bulldog say about a century and half ago was more commonly used for dogs that fought bulls and also I suppose that would work with cattle. Many cur dogs and many bulldogs and some White English will throw an unruly bovine, usually by grabbing an ear, but will not bait them. The baiting bulldogs, attacked tending to try and pin the bull by his nose, the same way a wolf would do it.
I am in northwest Florida between Pensacola and Milton, FL and in the late 80's and early 90's the elder locals would talk about the White English, most notably its temperament. They were meant to guard livestock, kids, chickens and what have you in your yard or farm. The key thing is that it takes more to trip their attack switch compared to many other guarding breeds and they also turnoff very quickly.
Origins: The name white english goes back to at least 1870's, but by the mid-19th century there were no such dogs in England that still resembled them. Some people think they were named after the extinct shepherds mastiffs that was likely still about in the late 18 th century England. The shepherds mastiffs tended to white as is the great Pyrenees which is a long-haired shepherds mastiff. Dogs were likely ancestral to the WE type were transported to the Americas meaning from Terra de fuego to the US atlantic coast by first the spanish, then French, and the English. There were a lot of different dogs of Mastiff/alaunt/alano/wolf hound types brought here, especially to the "La Florida" area that includes Georgia, Alabama, Florida, and Louisiana. These dogs were bred and selected to make working dogs.
Different localities had their own types of dogs. There were kill dogs like the fila and cuban blood hounds to catch slaves, brindle and red bulldogs (have lower threshold to attack), and the white english type.
One of my dogs does definitely have some old shepherds mastiff in her. Her father was in the 130 lb range and had rear dew claws that are still seen in some alpine mastiffs. Right now my Memphis is a long thin dog that is gaining wt with big shoulders and big head. She is now 75lbs and I expect here to make 85 and perhaps more. One of her litter mates (Missy in California, owner flew in to Memphis, rented a car to get to northern MS) is 60 lbs and Media still retained by Ray Lane the breeder is in the 80 lbs range or bigger now. The point is most lines of these dogs are not really pure and can throw all sizes and a good variation of proportions. Some females can be less than 50 lbs. The muzzles should between 3 and 4 inches and show no sign of "old english bulldog/pug" influence. Coat can be totally white or have some red, red brown, or black patches depending on the locality. Some color is preferred since the all white dogs often throw blue eyes and deafness. Also they have more problems reacting to flea bites and such.
Many of them are not good catch dogs and you will risk your life if you use them to hold a hog while you tie the backlegs. They often let go once the hog stops resisting.
To be a white english it must never growl at its master over anything including food. If it does or snaps at a child it should die. It should have a lot of common sense.

There are very few breeders breeding white english dogs and there are great personality differences amongst those that do.
Many of what WE still exists has been interbred with the newer American Bulldog stock that often has a very different behavior, notably a lot more drive and may display dominance to human members of the family and a lot of dog aggression. The point is as a country dog people have bred these dogs as they see fit and so finding dogs with the original behavior and that are also healthy is a task. White English are not common now in my area and I am not even sure if they exist here anymore.
I went on the net a few years ago once I relocated back to florida and started to look for WE or White English and came across Heather Wilkins and Ray Lanes' postings and they described what I have been told by people about WE 15-20 years earlier.
Eventually Josh W.of Dixie, Georgia sent me a female on hay truck that his father was driving to pensacola that was really not completely suitable behavior wise for his breeding program, but still a very good dog. She is too friendly and to much for a WE. She likes to climb on my lap and barks to demand attention. She came from a cross with a WE dog from Alabama and one of Josh's Georgia WE. The mother of Ginger, Julie was recently bred and sent off to hog hunter near by. Josh says that Julie will catch and has a lot of drive. Julie is also too aggressive for his breeding program (She bit someone at three months of age) while her daughter Ginger was too friendly. Ginger will act aggressively to towards human intruders, especially if Memphis my other dog initiates it. Memphis being a mixture of Georgia Giant and the Carr type dogs is true Old WE in behavior. Her only faults is that she is extremely territorial and possessive of bones and such. She does not like to share, but then what dogs do? She shows no dog aggression, distinguishes between my neighbors and strangers, and is laid back, but ready to react to anything that she does not understand. Alerts to snakes, but does not attack (Neither does Ginger), important if you want your dog to survive in the south. Neither of these dogs can open their mouths to 180 degrees like their grandmother Dixie could do. I saw Dixie at the age of 13 do it and it is hard to believe. Dixie died at almost 14 years of age and IIRC threw her last litter of pups at about 12 years of age. At 13 yrs when I saw her her, breeding did not take.

I am willing to answer any question to the best of my ability. If Memphis continues to do well likely I will breed her when she reaches about 2 yrs of age. I need to talk to Josh, Heather, and Ray about that when the time comes since they are the ones with suitable males for my Memphis.

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Hello I know this is an old email, but do you still have any of your White English Bulldogs around?