Jew Gentile division?

hummerpoo said:

Eph 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.

That preaching, which revealed the fulfilled/perfected Law, and was sealed/culminated at the cross, was what put an end to those "ordinances" which had (supposedly) made it sinful to walk too far on the Sabbath (and a multitude of fictitious interpretations, many of which created enmity between the Jews and others).

The Law as revealed through Moses creates a degree of separation between God's People and those who are not, but does not create enmity along ethnic lines.

Touching on ethnicity; the context of "Gentile" as used in the new testament must be watched very carefully, as it very often has meaning beyond ethnicity.

G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

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Wouldn't it be safe to say that since Gentiles were without God and hope that they were pagans or heathens? Some Jews were pagans as well, can we call them Gentiles?
Wouldn't all non-believers in Israel back in Paul's time and all non-believers today in the U.S. be considered Pagans if they were without God? Jesus said you are either with me or against me.

hummerpoo said:

Can it not be observed today, as then, that many who claim the Name take it as a mark of pride, while others are genuinely humbled.

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Whose law was it for Jews to eat certain foods and wear certain types of clothing? Did they set them selves apart from the Gentiles with laws or did God?

hobbs27 said:

So, you've been reading Hosea? Concerning the adulteress wife.

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No, Romans 7. Is it in Hosea?

hummerpoo said:

Eph 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.

That preaching, which revealed the fulfilled/perfected Law, and was sealed/culminated at the cross, was what put an end to those "ordinances" which had (supposedly) made it sinful to walk too far on the Sabbath (and a multitude of fictitious interpretations, many of which created enmity between the Jews and others).

The Law as revealed through Moses creates a degree of separation between God's People and those who are not, but does not create enmity along ethnic lines.

Touching on ethnicity; the context of "Gentile" as used in the new testament must be watched very carefully, as it very often has meaning beyond ethnicity.

G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Click to expand...

Please have a stab at how the Jews and Gentiles were separated by man and not God in Romans 11.

Part of God's way as presented in Romans 11 that people don't understand is that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. The Reformed believers know this better than some so it should come easy for them to visualize what Paul is teaching.

Artfuldodger said:

No, Romans 7. Is it in Hosea?

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It would probably help you to read the first four or so Chapters of Hosea and compare to Roman's 7.

hobbs27 said:

It would probably help you to read the first four or so Chapters of Hosea and compare to Roman's 7.

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OK, thanks. Care to answer the OP?
I'm trying to see the fading of the old and the ushering in of the new as it pertains to Romans 2:12-13. Considering that Christ abolished the Law on the Cross in Ephesians 2:15.

Romans 11 makes it appear that it happened over time. Like it wasn't a one day event.

I can see Christ removing the division caused by the Law in a day and yet it taking Paul to explain this to the masses. Even that meeting he had with the other apostles to discuss what to do about it. It wasn't like they all understood the mystery in a day.

Still though how does Romans 2:12-13 line up with this grace delivered by the cross?

Artfuldodger said:

OK, thanks. Care to answer the OP?
I'm trying to see the fading of the old and the ushering in of the new as it pertains to Romans 2:12-13. Considering that Christ abolished the Law on the Cross in Ephesians 2:15.

Romans 11 makes it appear that it happened over time. Like it wasn't a one day event.

I can see Christ removing the division caused by the Law in a day and yet it taking Paul to explain this to the masses. Even that meeting he had with the other apostles to discuss what to do about it. It wasn't like they all understood the mystery in a day.

Still though how does Romans 2:12-13 line up with this grace delivered by the cross?

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Most millenialist put us in the already but not yet. I agree with them that there was a transitional period, but I end the yet at 70 ad.

For forty years.. From the cross to the parousia in 70ad the Israelites wandered in the wilderness between two covenants (Hebrews 8:13).
The epistles are written during this time. I know scripture where Paul says they are made free from the law, and at the same time Paul participates in animal sacrifice. Acts 24:16f

https://www.gotquestions.org/already-not-yet.html

They were free from the law as far as God is concerned, but they were not free from the priesthood yet.
70 ad vindicated the saints.

When I read scripture I too see this back and forth between the Law and Grace. It has in the past placed me on a religious roller coaster.
Paul does it, James does it, Peter does it. You read one passage and it makes it seem like if you don't help the poor, you don't help Jesus and will die an eternal death. Another passage says that if you don't forgive the others, Christ won't forgive you. That one must still do a few things even with grace. Election based on anything other than grace is, well not grace.

One person says that once you are in you are in. Another tells you differently. They both have scripture to back up their beliefs.

I guess the way I see it is Christ died for my inability to quit sinning. He came to the earth to accomplish what I could not do. Now if I could have done it without him, why did I need him in the first place?
I wouldn't. I would have just repented from sin.

It's a pretty basic concept that gets cloudy by reading scripture than the other way around. You would think it would be grace only or grace plus works. Then someone shows up and says yes but one must also have proof provided by the Holy Spirit to prove your salvation"took."
Otherwise you just had a self induced hallelujah moment instead of a conversion.

Artfuldodger said:

Whose law was it for Jews to eat certain foods and wear certain types of clothing? Did they set them selves apart from the Gentiles with laws or did God?

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Artfuldodger said:

Please have a stab at how the Jews and Gentiles were separated by man and not God in Romans 11.

Part of God's way as presented in Romans 11 that people don't understand is that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. The Reformed believers know this better than some so it should come easy for them to visualize what Paul is teaching.

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Rm. 11 acknowledges that those actions of man which resulted in ethnic separation were Providential.

hummerpoo said:

Rm. 11 acknowledges that those actions of man which resulted in ethnic separation were Providential.

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Occurring at a favorable time; opportune, or involving divine intervention?

Romans 15:8
For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed. 9 He also came so that the Gentiles might give glory to God for his mercies to them. That is what the psalmist meant when he wrote: "For this, I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing praises to your name."10 Again, it says, "Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people."11 And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles; let all the peoples extol him."12 And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope."

I see what Isaiah is saying but I see it as a prophesy that came at a future event as told about in Romans 11. What was once a prophesy has come forth in time.

It was God's plan for Christ to come to the Jews to confirm the promises to the patriarchs and in doing so would let the Gentiles give glory to God for his mercy as well.

Romans 11:27-32
27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.

First the promises to the patriarchs, and then the grafting in of the Gentiles.
I don't really understand God's logic in doing it this way. He says in Romans 11 that we won't understand why he did it this way.

33 Oh, how great are God's riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!

He knows we are gonna wonder why he did it this way. This is why verses 33-35 are included.

Artfuldodger said:

Occurring at a favorable time; opportune, or involving divine intervention?

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Yes.

hummerpoo said:

Rm. 11 acknowledges that those actions of man which resulted in ethnic separation were Providential.

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Leviticus 20:26
“You are to be holy to me because I, the Lord, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.”

Providential in the definition that God caused it.

hummerpoo said:

Yes.

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The favorable time caused by the divine intervention for the division started way back with Abraham. It continued until another favorable time caused by divine intervention ended the division started by the first one.

33 Oh, how great are God's riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!

Artfuldodger said:

The favorable time caused by the divine intervention for the division started way back with Abraham. It continued until another favorable time caused by divine intervention ended the division started by the first one.

33 Oh, how great are God's riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!

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To and for the glory of God; Amen.