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  #51  
Old 02-13-2018, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
Scared?
I'm not scared. I'm a lot older than you are. I'll never see it
I absolutely agree we should continue to try to discover things.
I'm just not sure every discovery is a positive thing for everybody.
Kind of depends on how that discovery gets used.

Question -
Do you cherish time with your daughter? (I know you do)
Do you think the fact that you only will have a certain amount of time with her heightens that/makes you appreciate it more?
Yes. I have to admit that I don't often think of how limited my time on Earth is. I could keel over right now while typinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnhhhhhe;o....


Just kidding. But in all honesty, I could be concerned about my mortality more but I'm not. Some days I have my head down with the ball tucked and I'm just trying to make yardage. Some days I feel particularly philosophical and I try to revel in every little experience. That can be exhausting and I actually get bored of it. I don't beat myself up anymore because I'm not doing anything "meaningful". One can obsess over regrets or simply observe how they come into consciousness and then pass.

I enjoy the good times with my daughter as much as anything else I enjoy. I have a peculiar attachment to her that is unique and profound and it creates very distinct experiences that I find mysterious and powerful. I know that they could end at any time.

We put our dog down in Jan. People ask me if we are gonna get another one and I say "I don't want to emotionally invest that deeply in something that will only be around for such a short time". She was 11. Right now it doesn't seem like it was worth it. I wish that my dog and my family and all my friends could live forever. See the appeal?
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:02 PM
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The Manhattan Project was mentioned.

It would be interesting to ask (if one stood next to Oppenheimer)

"What do you mean when you say 'I have become Shiva, destroyer of worlds.'?"

Everyone knows he did not "do it" on his own...but he obviously saw his part. And whether things unfolded (yet) in whatever he may have seen (if anything) ahead, his statement is not unlike what is called an ecstatic utterance, the plain revelation to him, and then through him to a truth.

He helped pop that can wide open, and in the moment of perfect sight of those worms (no longer of imagination) in their wiggling, he identified himself with the many armed destroyer. (Too deep an image?)

The struggle of man to put the Genii back in the bottle, to unring that bell seems endless. But, it has an appointed end.

For some "I can fix this" must give way to "My God, what have I done?"!

That seeing can only be borne in the Savior's light.



The existential dilemma that you're trying to describe here can be resolved without the need of un-provable claims. The seeing born from the Savior's light (whatever the heck that means) is a fiction until you can demonstrate otherwise.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
We put our dog down in Jan. People ask me if we are gonna get another one and I say "I don't want to emotionally invest that deeply in something that will only be around for such a short time". She was 11. Right now it doesn't seem like it was worth it. I wish that my dog and my family and all my friends could live forever. See the appeal?
Sorry about your dog.
Ours is getting older, and this comes to mind a lot:

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/725...-thing-to-love

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Old 02-13-2018, 01:34 PM
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Sorry about your dog.
Ours is getting older, and this comes to mind a lot:

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/725...-thing-to-love

*
Mortality creates a particular situation. The absence of it would cause a different one. It might be fun to make a list of the good and bad that might come from the absence of mortality.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:38 PM
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Back to consciousness for a second.

We know what consciousness feels like when it manifests in material, but if one claims that consciousness is immaterial, then what does that consciousness feel like and how would one know?
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:01 PM
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Yes. I have to admit that I don't often think of how limited my time on Earth is. I could keel over right now while typinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnhhhhhe;o....


Just kidding. But in all honesty, I could be concerned about my mortality more but I'm not. Some days I have my head down with the ball tucked and I'm just trying to make yardage. Some days I feel particularly philosophical and I try to revel in every little experience. That can be exhausting and I actually get bored of it. I don't beat myself up anymore because I'm not doing anything "meaningful". One can obsess over regrets or simply observe how they come into consciousness and then pass.

I enjoy the good times with my daughter as much as anything else I enjoy. I have a peculiar attachment to her that is unique and profound and it creates very distinct experiences that I find mysterious and powerful. I know that they could end at any time.

We put our dog down in Jan. People ask me if we are gonna get another one and I say "I don't want to emotionally invest that deeply in something that will only be around for such a short time". She was 11. Right now it doesn't seem like it was worth it. I wish that my dog and my family and all my friends could live forever. See the appeal?
I absolutely see and completely understand the appeal.
But I cant help but wonder if some of that appeal and wishing stems from the fact that whether consciously or subconsciously you know they cant and wont and that's where this appeal/wish stems from.
And that's part of my point. I suck at explaining things but.....
Things that appeal to us, things that we wish for, things that we want to accomplish etc are what make life go 'round and motivate us, provide us enjoyment etc.
I cant help but wonder if some of that gets lost when you know "they" aren't going anywhere. When you know "Ive got forever to accomplish this", would I enjoy trout fishing with friends as much today if I know I could do that forever.
Even the pain involved with putting your dog down. Isnt that pain a part of "living"? A part of what makes us appreciate life?

An "eliminating death" question from a different angle -
Right at this very moment what keeps us from being in an all out nuke war with NK?
The death toll.
Now eliminate the death toll.
Considering man's inherent desire to war, do you think we would revert to all singing kumbaya or do you think no death toll would be all the reason we need for perpetual nuke wars?
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
I absolutely see and completely understand the appeal.
But I cant help but wonder if some of that appeal and wishing stems from the fact that whether consciously or subconsciously you know they cant and wont and that's where this appeal/wish stems from.
And that's part of my point. I suck at explaining things but.....
Things that appeal to us, things that we wish for, things that we want to accomplish etc are what make life go 'round and motivate us, provide us enjoyment etc.
I cant help but wonder if some of that gets lost when you know "they" aren't going anywhere. When you know "Ive got forever to accomplish this", would I enjoy trout fishing with friends as much today if I know I could do that forever.
Even the pain involved with putting your dog down. Isnt that pain a part of "living"? A part of what makes us appreciate life?

An "eliminating death" question from a different angle -
Right at this very moment what keeps us from being in an all out nuke war with NK?
The death toll.
Now eliminate the death toll.
Considering man's inherent desire to war, do you think we would revert to all singing kumbaya or do you think no death toll would be all the reason we need for perpetual nuke wars?
I understand your point. I make the same arguments to believers about Heaven. I claim that they haven't really thought about the details, they just know that it will be Paradise cuz that's what they're told. At my friend's dad's funeral his pastor brother said "Dad, I know you're up there catching Heaven bass". How big is that bass? How pretty was that day? Is it that same moment forever or much beterer each time than we can possibly imagine. And that goes on forever?

"I wish this moment could last forever". I hear people say that all the time. What if they could hook you up to a machine that replicated that moment in your mind forever and they keep your body alive. In dystopian science fiction like the Matrix the only thing that goes wrong is that some of the people see through THAT reality and struggle against it. Or they realize that it's a facsimile and it doesn't satisfy anymore. You'd have to make a theoretical argument that "something" in your mind rejects the manufactured experience. It's too soon to say that "something in your mind" would react that way or what would cause it. That's why it's fiction.

We don't know what the implications will be of that tech. I know that we'll probably still get a rush out of jumping from a great height since the origin of that sensation is biological. For that experience to no longer affect us, that instinct would have to be altered. I don't know how much fun it would be to bungee off the Eiffel Tower for the 10,000th time. Maybe it never gets old.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:34 PM
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I imagine that some people will choose to die even if the option to live forever exists. If believers agree with that, how do they imagine that impulse translates to life in Heaven?

If you're in Heaven, like in the perfect Matrix, is there something in the nature of spooky consciousness that would make you feel that "something's just not right"?
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:55 PM
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Or the Writings use the believer and the non believer.
Man using man.
Spot on
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:01 PM
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Or the Writings use the believer and the non believer.
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Originally Posted by bullethead View Post
Man using man.
Spot on
Does 2+2=4 exist even if there are no beings to think about it? Does "Jesus is Lord" work the same way? What about before anything exists? What's he lording over then? Nothing?
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:05 PM
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I absolutely see and completely understand the appeal.
But I cant help but wonder if some of that appeal and wishing stems from the fact that whether consciously or subconsciously you know they cant and wont and that's where this appeal/wish stems from.
And that's part of my point. I suck at explaining things but.....
Things that appeal to us, things that we wish for, things that we want to accomplish etc are what make life go 'round and motivate us, provide us enjoyment etc.
I cant help but wonder if some of that gets lost when you know "they" aren't going anywhere. When you know "Ive got forever to accomplish this", would I enjoy trout fishing with friends as much today if I know I could do that forever.
Even the pain involved with putting your dog down. Isnt that pain a part of "living"? A part of what makes us appreciate life?

An "eliminating death" question from a different angle -
Right at this very moment what keeps us from being in an all out nuke war with NK?
The death toll.
Now eliminate the death toll.
Considering man's inherent desire to war, do you think we would revert to all singing kumbaya or do you think no death toll would be all the reason we need for perpetual nuke wars?
Immortality would be used as a tool to gain, have and keep power.

Man never uses anything to help all the masses. Things like money, immortality etc etc are used to keep the masses in line.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:06 PM
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Does 2+2=4 exist even if there are no beings to think about it? Does "Jesus is Lord" work the same way? What about before anything exists? What's he lording over then? Nothing?
He's just out there, nowhere, all by himself lording over nothing. But there's not nothing, cuz He's there.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:13 PM
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Immortality would be used as a tool to gain, have and keep power.

Man never uses anything to help all the masses. Things like money, immortality etc etc are used to keep the masses in line.
Oh, you old cynic.

From Inherit the Wind:

"They're simple people, Henry; poor people. They work hard and they need to believe in something, something beautiful. Why do you want to take that away from them? It's all they have."

And from the Neo-Conservative, Intelligent Design proponent Irving Kristol:

"If there is one indisputable fact about the human condition it is that no community can survive if it is persuaded--or even suspects--that its members are leading meaningless lives in a meaningless universe."
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:07 PM
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Man using man.
Spot on
Precisely to an end.
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:09 PM
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He's just out there, nowhere, all by himself lording over nothing. But there's not nothing, cuz He's there.
Everything is always present with omniscience.
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Old 02-14-2018, 07:10 AM
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The existential dilemma that you're trying to describe here can be resolved without the need of un-provable claims. The seeing born from the Savior's light (whatever the heck that means) is a fiction until you can demonstrate otherwise.
"He who is forgiven little, loves little, he who is forgiven much, loves much."

The weeds get so thick at times one can easily be distracted by false light. As though"a" belief in "a" god is somehow of a sufficiency to the soul. But all men have gods, and the what and who of their consistency is made plain in their attentions. And intentions.

The scriptures are plain as to the myriad things a man might serve with his life, in this life, going so far as to readily admit "there be gods many, and lords many".

There is no lack of abundance to which a man might yield himself in worship. But there is one Savior. One who appears to the saving of the soul from that panoply of false gods. There is no salvation in any other. His appearance and salvation are plainly manifest among those which have been convinced (by another) of their need of salvation.

To the soul that satisfies itself (as a man at a smorgasbord might) with his picking and choosing of those things which please (living for pleasure alone) what need of salvation? Oh, there may be some interest expressed as to knowing whether there be "a" God, like another thing he might put on his plate to supplement all else of his choosing, but to such a man, that is merely something else to have, to know.

But Jesus is quite plain. "Clear the plate", there is nothing else needed, for there is in reality, nothing else at all, except the knowing of Himself. And that it is only the knowing of Him, that any can begin to come to the knowing of the God above all gods. And that that God has ordained this, the God of salvation, has made, and wills, to only make Himself known through that appointed One, that elect One, that chosen One. Jesus is unremitting (as I believe you know, and so many bewail) in His exclusivity.

He was, and is prepared, for the receiving of all projection
of all malignant motives a man (any man) might cast his way by that projection. "He wants to make Himself something" "He thinks he is better than us..." "He only seeks glory for Himself" "He blasphemes".

When a man is brought to see (by the convincing of another) the true place where these things are resident (but are shunted off by projection), then he begins to appreciate a need of his soul's salvation. And likewise the provision of a savior, indeed, the Savior of whose innocent blood he is now made aware of his part in spilling. Till then it is "all else" at fault, all else up for vilification, all else held in his eye for reviling, for to himself, and of himself...he is more than OK. (Not like Hitler, at the very least!) Or, that publican there. Or, those benighted gullibles...there.

The soul unaware by the Spirit's light, though, is precisely the need crying out answered by the God of salvation. To despise it, to find fault in it...is just another form of projection against self ignorance. And only invites a deeper working of the Spirit's light toward salvation. The man who blames his brother for "not seeing" is shown to only be the one, blaming himself.

And so it goes. He who is forgiven little, loves little, he who is forgiven much, loves much.


And no man can bear to see the "just how much" he has been all wrong, apart from the mercy shown in the Savior's light.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:56 PM
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"He who is forgiven little, loves little, he who is forgiven much, loves much."

The weeds get so thick at times one can easily be distracted by false light. As though"a" belief in "a" god is somehow of a sufficiency to the soul. But all men have gods, and the what and who of their consistency is made plain in their attentions. And intentions.

The scriptures are plain as to the myriad things a man might serve with his life, in this life, going so far as to readily admit "there be gods many, and lords many".

There is no lack of abundance to which a man might yield himself in worship. But there is one Savior. One who appears to the saving of the soul from that panoply of false gods. There is no salvation in any other. His appearance and salvation are plainly manifest among those which have been convinced (by another) of their need of salvation.

To the soul that satisfies itself (as a man at a smorgasbord might) with his picking and choosing of those things which please (living for pleasure alone) what need of salvation? Oh, there may be some interest expressed as to knowing whether there be "a" God, like another thing he might put on his plate to supplement all else of his choosing, but to such a man, that is merely something else to have, to know.

But Jesus is quite plain. "Clear the plate", there is nothing else needed, for there is in reality, nothing else at all, except the knowing of Himself. And that it is only the knowing of Him, that any can begin to come to the knowing of the God above all gods. And that that God has ordained this, the God of salvation, has made, and wills, to only make Himself known through that appointed One, that elect One, that chosen One. Jesus is unremitting (as I believe you know, and so many bewail) in His exclusivity.

He was, and is prepared, for the receiving of all projection
of all malignant motives a man (any man) might cast his way by that projection. "He wants to make Himself something" "He thinks he is better than us..." "He only seeks glory for Himself" "He blasphemes".

When a man is brought to see (by the convincing of another) the true place where these things are resident (but are shunted off by projection), then he begins to appreciate a need of his soul's salvation. And likewise the provision of a savior, indeed, the Savior of whose innocent blood he is now made aware of his part in spilling. Till then it is "all else" at fault, all else up for vilification, all else held in his eye for reviling, for to himself, and of himself...he is more than OK. (Not like Hitler, at the very least!) Or, that publican there. Or, those benighted gullibles...there.

The soul unaware by the Spirit's light, though, is precisely the need crying out answered by the God of salvation. To despise it, to find fault in it...is just another form of projection against self ignorance. And only invites a deeper working of the Spirit's light toward salvation. The man who blames his brother for "not seeing" is shown to only be the one, blaming himself.

And so it goes. He who is forgiven little, loves little, he who is forgiven much, loves much.


And no man can bear to see the "just how much" he has been all wrong, apart from the mercy shown in the Savior's light.
Ya hear these types of claims about one religion, ya hear em about every other religion.

When someone talks as if the things they say are a matter of fact, it would also be wise for them to also know that only the facts matter. Try to include some next time.
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:34 PM
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Ya hear these types of claims about one religion, ya hear em about every other religion.

When someone talks as if the things they say are a matter of fact, it would also be wise for them to also know that only the facts matter. Try to include some next time.
Does anyone else see what I see? Anyone?
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:00 PM
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Does anyone else see what I see? Anyone?
Just the same ol' thing.
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:04 PM
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Does anyone else see what I see? Anyone?
Lets discuss it then.
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:32 PM
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https://www.islamicboard.com/compara...e-muslims.html

Same old claims made by believers in here.
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Old 02-15-2018, 06:40 AM
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Ya hear these types of claims about one religion, ya hear em about every other religion.

When someone talks as if the things they say are a matter of fact, it would also be wise for them to also know that only the facts matter. Try to include some next time.
Quote:
All a person has to do to not only become an authority on what 2000 year old dead people think, want, like, dislike, love, hate, feel...but also speak for the person and tell others what the corpse understands...is to read a book.
The beauty is since the dead person didn't write down a single thing, these new self appointed authorities just say whatever the heck they want about any situation while asserting and claiming that those are the words and thoughts and actions of someone and more often something that they not only never knew but can never possibly know.

Actually, it is not much different than what the anonymous authors who wrote the gospels did.

It's wonderful entertainment.

Quote:
And......
Jesus taught to follow the Old Testament.
He wasnt asking for a new religion.
Paul wanted that.
Besides the obvious attribution to Paul of departing from the discipline of Jesus Christ (and His teaching) is the underlying accusation of Paul's motives in that departure.

You say (do I misconstrue?) Paul wanted a new religion.
And you have come to that, how? You have divined his intentions...how? What insight informs you of such a Machiavellian scheme to subvert the Gospel?


Must you not then do the very thing of which you accuse me, that is the knowing of a heart's desire of one you would claim...not present?

But we know this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us...

Fear not. I will no less be called to account for every word of presumption, every attempt to go beyond that which I know for the purpose of impressing, than any other man.


We remain in that, entirely alike.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:14 AM
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Besides the obvious attribution to Paul of departing from the discipline of Jesus Christ (and His teaching) is the underlying accusation of Paul's motives in that departure.

You say (do I misconstrue?) Paul wanted a new religion.
And you have come to that, how? You have divined his intentions...how? What insight informs you of such a Machiavellian scheme to subvert the Gospel?


Must you not then do the very thing of which you accuse me, that is the knowing of a heart's desire of one you would claim...not present?

But we know this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us...

Fear not. I will no less be called to account for every word of presumption, every attempt to go beyond that which I know for the purpose of impressing, than any other man.


We remain in that, entirely alike.
I do not claim to have insight. I use knowledge gotten from study. There is no need for you to lie and claim that I do not offer information to back up my statements. I do and have done that for many years. I constantly offer links that back up my statements. I don't make claims without the ability to back them up. Your style is not mine.

Study your religions history instead of what it has been manipulated to become. You might learn something.

Then take the time to read the thread that I posted about Islam. All you believers and your same claims are on there, you just have different usernames.
NOTHING that you claim as exclusive isnt used around the world to say the same thing about all other gods.

You religious DJs all play the same broken records that repeat the same song while thinking your radio station is the only one on the airwaves. Time to upgrade.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bullethead View Post
I do not claim to have insight. I use knowledge gotten from study. There is no need for you to lie and claim that I do not offer information to back up my statements. I do and have done that for many years. I constantly offer links that back up my statements. I don't make claims without the ability to back them up. Your style is not mine.

Study your religions history instead of what it has been manipulated to become. You might learn something.

Then take the time to read the thread that I posted about Islam. All you believers and your same claims are on there, you just have different usernames.
NOTHING that you claim as exclusive isnt used around the world to say the same thing about all other gods.

You religious DJs all play the same broken records that repeat the same song while thinking your radio station is the only one on the airwaves. Time to upgrade.
Why would I want to read about Islam? Why would I be interested in any religion?
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:29 AM
bullethead bullethead is offline
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Originally Posted by Israel View Post
Why would I want to read about Islam? Why would I be interested in any religion?
Exactly.
Stay in your own world.
Keep making assertive claims and use your source as its own source.
And pretend that what you say is unique.

Or

You can check the link out that I've given and you can see the EXACT same claims there that you make here and see that each of you think it is exclusive to your gods.

Learn or dont. Up to you.
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