Christians and their government

Ronnie T

Ol' Retired Mod
I so much appreciate everyone's comments to this subject. I continue to question exactly how I should allow those verse to impact my life today as an American. But I think about it a lot.

I believe these verses that talk about our relationship to the local government are directly connected to chapter 12, and are a continuation of what Paul said in verse 1 and 2 of that chapter.....

to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world

I once read, "If we could make America into the very best nation in the world, the most pleasant place to live, the place where wealth would be most common, it would be the perfect place to die and go to hel l from."

I don't know if those words are way off-base or not.

Please continue to share your thoughts............................
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
I just woke up from sleep and the first thing I recalled to mind was that Paul was a Roman and a Jew. He was very intimate with the practices, the influences, the real history and life of romans; and he was very familiar with the the practice of Yahweh and/or Elohim and His habit of using internal and external leadership and governance along with foreign kings and rulers to bless and correct them ( his people) and shape His chosen.

In many ways Paul ministry to the gentiles was God's ministing to Paul's own people. It was not a ministry of opposition but one of faith and grace or love. God used Paul's voice to call out of the gentiles those He had given to Jesus. And like it was with Paul on the road to Demascus, and as it had been and continued with the Jews He honed and purified in exile, He raised us for Paul a(gentiles) anew. From our blindness and death, for Paul the roman apostle He (God)called us home and He continues to shape us for our governments internal and foriegn.

In many ways to be a roman was to belong to a political unit, perhaps even a people, that was a melting pot of peoples and individual with various or different ethnic, cultural and shared in commom beliefs. In other words Rome was a creation not unlike America or all of the present day Western World..
 
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Ronnie T

Ol' Retired Mod
Should I go to war for my nation, knowing that God would never want me to go to war for the church?

When the time come to "lock and load" whose instrument am I, my nation, or my God?
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
I just woke up from sleep and the first thing I recalled to mind was that Paul was a Roman and a Jew. He was very intimate with the practices, the influences, the real history and life of romans; and he was very familiar with the the practice of Yahweh and/or Elohim and His habit of using internal and external leadership and governance along with foreign kings and rulers to bless and correct them ( his people) and shape His chosen.

In many ways Paul ministry to the gentiles was God's ministing to Paul's own people. It was not a ministry of opposition but one of faith and grace or love. God used Paul's voice to call out of the gentiles those He had given to Jesus. And like it was with Paul on the road to Demascus, and as it had been and continued with the Jews He honed and purified in exile, He raised us for Paul a(gentiles) anew. From our blindness and death, for Paul the roman apostle He (God)called us home and He continues to shape us for our governments internal and foriegn.

In many ways to be a roman was to belong to a political unit, perhaps even a people, that was a melting pot of peoples and individual with various or different ethnic, cultural and shared in commom beliefs. In other words Rome was a creation not unlike America or all of the present day Western World..

This is the first time I've ever heard Paul referred to as a Roman, I will read up and investigate more , but I have always read he was from a long line of Jews.

As to the Gentiles we have been in Gods plan all along, God gave Israel the oppurtunity to be a great nation that other nations would envy, and other nations would want to worship the God of Israel, but the Jews were very bigoted...example would be Jonah...God wanted him to preach to the Gentiles and for a little while he thought he would rather be dead than to deliver a message to those dogs of ninevah.
God gave them every oppurtunity, and they failed, even denying his own son.Peter and Paul preached the Gospel to the Jew first...giving them one more chance to repent before God sent the Romans in to destroy Israel.
Now Gods chosen are not divided by Abrahams blood but, by the blood of Christ, no matter your race you can become His chosen, "whosoever will".And it is our job as his chosen to shine his light to make others envious of the joy in our life to bring them to Him.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Should I go to war for my nation, knowing that God would never want me to go to war for the church?

When the time come to "lock and load" whose instrument am I, my nation, or my God?

Always God's. But be careful. The intrument one is about to be is not one so that your kind can have freedom and liberty alone, but also it is to be given as a prize to your enemy.

To be an instrument of the state only is to invite war crime and often peace making( Pax Romanus and Shovel in the Face until you stop) instead of an intrument for peace keeping. The state when it comes to war has no morals--its conscience is driven by security and self-preservation.

Now I know this. Many soldiers are soldiers because they need a job--the rest is a devil they sleep with. Mouthed ideals of states and even spiritual ideals are often clap trap to putting butter on the soldier pancake.

Special forces are thought to kill, kill uprigth, kill unside down and sideways, and to kill a thousand times and a thousand other ways. The goal is to kill and what ever serves to keep up moral in the face of this reality serves the purpose of killing and survival in order to kill again.

Prayer and Fatherland are more than not the allies of a bayonet in your enemies chest or injury by friendly fire. The adrenelin to cave in your enemies face, to throw him alive out of a flying helicopter without a parachure is often the child of hate and egomania disguised as patriotism.

So perhaps this is why some nations try to keep to small armies in peace time and citizen souldiers in times of conflict.

Though the sacrafice is highly paid in citizen armies who make the peace, they are less likely to be slaves of the state compared to professional armies who should only be used to keep the peace.

So when it comes time to "lock and load" it is perhaps worth while to judge that the enemy is not bound up for our injustice and we are asked by the state to point our barrel behind his head.

God's fight for freedom and liberty is not a fight to accumulate the trophy of slaves.

Police officers ( often a bad word when applied to soldiering) are peace officers and it is that spirit that would make me "lock and load".


At the time of the American Revolution the british authorities were cold blooded instuments of the state. Their ranks were filled mostly by biggotted and selfrightious christians who prayed to Jesus and made their soldiers read King James each morning ---just before they again bombarded Washington's make shift defenses.
 
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StriperAddict

Senior Member
Bro Ronnie, thou compellest me to wax political.... LOL!

Should I go to war for my nation, knowing that God would never want me to go to war for the church?

When the time come to "lock and load" whose instrument am I, my nation, or my God?

Right out of High School I nearly made it into the service in '76, but back then the U.S. was out of Nam and there wasn't a call to arms, so to speak, and no longer a draft. So the requirements were pretty strict, and my teenage asthma cancelled the deal.

Even though this was 3 years before my conversion to Christ, I've often thought what would have been the outcome had I made it into service and a war was really going on at the time. And let's just say that somehow the truth still got to me and I believed in Jesus. I have to be honest and say I was dissapointed when I could not be accepted, and today I still have some regret that I couldn't serve my country.

And even with the possibility of having to fire a weapon, my conscience is clear concerning my duty to God, and my country. Sure, it will be one of the toughest things to do, but when our home is invaded, we have a right to defend our nation, like our right to defend our property.
I don't find in scripture anywhere that the word rebukes a man for either entering the draft or enlisting voluntarily.
In fact, Jesus Christ commended the *Centurian ( Luke 7:1-10 ) for... his deeds? his military service? No, but for his faith.
After Christ's words there isn't any indication that the Lord said he resign his position, however I'm sure the man's new-found life directed him to change from within. We would be careful not to presume that outcome (something law/religion would try and do). As the circumstances of his earthly call change and servicemen/leaders are pressured into evil and unrighteous acts (and this is true for whatever station/career we find ourselves in), he must needs deal with that with his Lord and with his leaders.
But just imagine for a minute what a testimony this Centurion had about the healing of his slave. This man's affections for a subordinate no doubt spoke volumes to the entire leigon under his command! (In fact, for the Centurion to even speak to Christ was considered an act of sedition, punishable by death. But now I am getting off topic).

So to answer your post Ronnie, I believe a "soilder in the Lord's army" (as in a Christian prayerfully wrestling against the forces of spiritual darkness) can indeed be a soilder serving in his country. It is still a noble vocation no matter the spiritual side of the fence one is on.
As to all the military leaders and all in active service... my prayers go out for wisdom and protection. Consider: 1Tim2:1-2
1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers,
petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may
lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.


1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.



For further consideration:
1 Corinthians 7:24
Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.

1 Corinthians 10:33
just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.

Romans 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.


*Centurian: A professional officer of the Roman army, and a commander of 60 to 80 men despite the commonly assumed 100.
 
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hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
Should I go to war for my nation, knowing that God would never want me to go to war for the church?

When the time come to "lock and load" whose instrument am I, my nation, or my God?

Do you know the movie "Sargeant York". It's not that easy to find but well worth the effort. It speaks directly to this question. I would say it's my favorite movie. It's generally consider, perhaps correctly, pro-war but mostly I see a story of a man who is true to his faith. From what I have read, about the movie and the man, he never wavered from that stance throughout his life. If you chose to make the effort to see it, be prepared to work at your watching, the details are important.
 

Ronnie T

Ol' Retired Mod
I saw Sergeant York a long long time ago.
I'm not sure I remember it at all.
You must be much older than me. :huh:
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
That movie is one i've always heard alot about but i've never seen it. I just watched a couple of scenes of it on you tube. In one they were at Camp Gordon here in Augusta. Looks like their are lots of Christian connections in the film. I'll have to watch the whole thing.
I'm reminded of how being a Christian and doing the work of our government can co-exist. I've heard my Dad say Jimmy Carter didn't make a good president because he was too good a Christian. I imagine he had some personal battles between his beliefs and government. I've also heard Christians don't do good in business because they are too honest to tell someone it was just a loose wire instead of selling them a new part.
 

hummerpoo

Gone but not forgotten
I saw Sergeant York a long long time ago.
I'm not sure I remember it at all.
You must be much older than me. :huh:

It came out in 1941 and I am younger than the movie. I made a tape of it from the TV about 15 years ago which is worn out.

Just watched it again, for the first time in about a year, because thinking of it rekindled a desire to get a DVD and while looking for one I got to reading people's reviews. Some stated that Sargeant York had decided to fight for his country, which is not the way I remembered it. I don't think, as protrayed in the movie, he did. Although the acting is not what we are accustomed to today (which is partially attributable to the restrictions York himself put on the production) it's still my all time favorite.

Just one aspect is the theology that is protrayed.
 

Ronnie T

Ol' Retired Mod
I'll have to search and watch the movie.
Thanks.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
I'll have to search and watch the movie.
Thanks.

U tube has most of it. York a consciencious objector like most citizens everywhere, had issued to him a 1903 Springfield number 218102, and he followed orders to the degree we all would have to.
 
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StriperAddict

Senior Member
I've also heard Christians don't do good in business because they are too honest to tell someone it was just a loose wire instead of selling them a new part.

I can understand the selfish motivation, but it's a sad state of affairs when a Christian cannot believe God will bless honest business practices.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
I can understand the selfish motivation, but it's a sad state of affairs when a Christian cannot believe God will bless honest business practices.
There was a discussion on one of the forums about a Texas business man who wasn't doing too good and finally started giving most of his profits to do Church mission work. His profits and life improved after that. He also started a technical school. He invented and made logging and heavy equipment.
 

Israel

BANNED
Conscience is something over which no other man has dominion.
What we do with its conformation to the Lord to the extent to which we have received, is in our hands alone.
 

StriperAddict

Senior Member
There was a discussion on one of the forums about a Texas business man who wasn't doing too good and finally started giving most of his profits to do Church mission work. His profits and life improved after that. He also started a technical school. He invented and made logging and heavy equipment.

There's a book out there by a Christian businessman with a similar story. Its called "God owns my Business", by Stanley Tam. Another book about his experiences: Stanley Tam's Incredible Adventures with God
 
No, I haven't come to grips with the passages in the OP. Folks have mentioned some instances recorded in the bible where "lawlessness" was modeled as a kind of circumstantial righteousness. I agree with Israel: our response to government boils down to exercise of our free will, informed by
conscience. I think Gary Cooper played the role of Alvin York. I've frequently thought of the movie scenes depicting York's personal struggle. Ultimately, Jesus' own words in response to pharisees' questions -- to the effect, Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's -- helped York resolve to enter WWI as a combatant. The movie depicts his struggle, his meditation, his earnest pressing into the Holy Spirit, and his epiphany. Given Sgt. York's actual record of accomplishment in that war, one could reasonably conclude that the Lord truly blessed him and preserved him. Some may say he was just born with a horseshoe to have survived, no, excelled, in the combat he faced. My take away: Scripture, the Word, will meet us where we're at, regardless of the fleshly legal
equations that exist. American law in York's time authorized conscription and conscientious objection. When York was drafted, he broke no law declaring himself a noncombatant. His struggle was over national patriotism in wartime versus the commandment that thou shall not kill. I greatly respect York, his service, his testimony and that movie. Same generally for our government and military. But I can't guarantee that Jesus's tax response would impel me to submit to the government in every instance outside of
that specific context. Same for Paul's writing to the Romans.
 
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mtnwoman

Senior Member
There was a discussion on one of the forums about a Texas business man who wasn't doing too good and finally started giving most of his profits to do Church mission work. His profits and life improved after that. He also started a technical school. He invented and made logging and heavy equipment.

Well God does say to test Him...very few times does He say prove me if I will not prove to you.....
Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
 

mtnwoman

Senior Member
Conscience is something over which no other man has dominion.
What we do with its conformation to the Lord to the extent to which we have received, is in our hands alone.

Amen!....free will....free will that I try to surrender every day. I have free will to surrender my free will...I like that. God help my unbelief!!
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
The businessman I was trying to think of was R.G. Letourneau.
This is what he said: Some people think I'm all mixed up---that you can't serve the Lord and business, too, but that's just the point. God needs businessmen as partners as well as preachers.
 
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