Jerusalem the capital of Israel?

a gentile could convert to being a jew since the time of Abraham. There was a procedure in place to do this.

as a matter of fact, Ruth did it, the Roman centurian did it, Rahab did it... there are several examples of gentiles converting to be a practicing jew

Remember when I said I read verses pertaining to individuals and other verses pertaining to nations?

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Romans 11:1-2
ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel:

I get's very confusing when we try to separate or combine verses as they pertain to nations, individuals, and/or the Church.

Genesis 25:23
The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger."

Romans 9:11-12
Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

NE GA Pappy said:

to claim that judaism is a made up religion is just crazy. I know you think that every thing ended in 70AD, but the jews continued in the religion that they were taught from Abraham on down.

Can you tell me what about the jewish religion caused it to be "made up" after the Messiah came? Was it a "made up" religion before Messiah came on the scene? What about while he was growing up? The first 30 years he was living here? Was it a "made up" religion during that time?


Yes, I would agree that the path to God has changed since Christ died and rose again, but surely you will agree that up until that time, the jews followed the religion and practices that were ordained by God for them to follow?

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Yes, I can tell you what changed. The old covenant is no more per 70 ad.

It did not completely end at the cross, as Hebrews 8:13 proves

It's all about covenant.

Artfuldodger said:

I must say the remnant elected by grace from national Israel becoming the Church is way more believable than the Church replacing Israel.
It still doesn't answer God's reconciliation with the Israel that God foreknew. It doesn't explain the rest of Romans 11, the trespasses by the hardened Israel that allowed the Gentiles salvation to make the hardened Israel jealous. It doesn't explain the promises to the patriarchs. That the promises are still promises. That after the full number of Gentiles comes in, all Israel will be saved. The rest of them. Those hardened by God. The ones God blinded. The ones that may one day be "elected" or "chosen" by grace and not by works.
I hope everyone realizes this is how salvation is granted. God elects by grace. God also has the ability to harden. If I was one that God foreknew, I could live a life of sin and then be chosen for salvation later. God foreknew Israel.

When I read Romans 9-11, I see promises more than proof.

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I think your answer is in Galatians 4. Abraham had two sons.

hobbs27 said:

I think your answer is in Galatians 4. Abraham had two sons.

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Get rid of the slave woman and her son. Answer or dilemma?

Interesting, you got me a little on that. Here in Galatians, Paul is telling the children of God not to follow Judiasm. I'm a bit confused why the Galatians who worshiped false Gods would want to convert to Judiasm after becoming Christians. Were they ever Jews? Children of God losing their salvation?

Anyway to the point, Paul tells them to get rid of the slave woman and her son. Which more or less could be telling them to get rid of the current physical Jerusalem and follow the new spiritual heavenly Jerusalem. It could appear that Paul is telling them the physical Jerusalem never was heirs as children and to abandon it as an heir. It could be that one needed to not follow the current hardened physical Jerusalem. The one that will be eventually saved in Romans 11. The occupants of that physical city that God foreknew and were heirs to the promises of the Commonwealth of Israel.

But how could an individual follow a heavenly Jerusalem instead of Jesus who came from the physical Jerusalem as well as the heavenly Jerusalem?
Jesus came from both the physical and spiritual Jerusalem.
He was like the two brothers all wrapped up in one.
The slave woman was born according to the flesh but so was Jesus. The Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. Jesus also comes from that Jerusalem as well.

And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery to the law.
But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.
Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. (What throws me for a loop is the word "Now." Where was the foreknowledge used in Romans?)

The kicker;
But what does Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."

Is that the same Jerusalem that in Romans 11 God says;
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

Maybe the slave woman and her son is the Old Covenant that was/is being practiced by the hardened inhabitants of physical Jerusalem. The plea being to abandon their beliefs and ways.

“The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.The heavenly Jerusalem or the Jerusalem from above would have no sin. The heavenly Jerusalem would not need to be made jealous. The heavenly Jerusalem would not need saving. The heavenly Jerusalem had no patriarchs. The occupants of the heavenly Jerusalem does not have natural and unnatural branches. No need of the unnatural branches to be afraid.
No need of a warning of being arrogant towards the natural branches in a Jerusalem from above.

hobbs27 said:

I think your answer is in Galatians 4. Abraham had two sons.

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Galatians 4:28
Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.
or;
And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, just like Isaac.

I'm just wondering how you view who the children of the promise are. Did it change from Old Jerusalem to the New? Was it never physical Israel and always spiritual Israel?
Did these Galatians become children of the promise through Isaac being of the New Jerusalem or did something happen that let the Galatians become children through a "change" or "replacement?"
"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children."
Hagar's son was Ishmael. He corresponds to physical Jerusalem and the Law not the children of the promise/heirs?
You see what I'm saying? Isaac corresponds to the New Jerusalem, salvation by Jesus/grace and heirs to the promise?
I mean this could be viewed as always being more than something that changed or was replaced.

What I'm trying to do is maybe take it one step farther from a change or replacement and see if it has never been physical Israel and has always been spiritual Israel. Can one take Galatians 4 even one step past what you are perceiving and show that the heirs or children of Abraham never were the genealogical offspring of Abraham. Maybe there never was a change or replacement.
"God sent Jesus to buy freedom for us who were slaves to the law, so that he could adopt us as his very own children."
Did that remove physical Israel and put in place a spiritual Israel or was there always a spiritual Israel?

I had asked earlier "what was physical Israel's purpose in God's plan? Why make Christianity this great big Jewish thing if it never was a part of God's plan to begin with? If the promises never were to physical Israel. If the children of God never were a part of physical Israel. If all of Israel never were those who were genealogical descendants of Abraham?

I'm trying to figure out why God chose physical Israel if in actuality he never did. Even if he originally chose Israel as his children and heirs to the promises, he still knew that his Son would be born a Jew under the Law.
He knew of the two children of Abraham. He knew who they represented.
One the Old Jerusalem/Law and the other the New Jerusalem/Grace. He knew this way before he sent his Son to be born in physical Israel.

I just don't see how anyone can remove the Jewish aspects or origins from Christianity and say it never was or it's a false religion. How can that be when Jesus was born a Jew and under the Law?
How can one read Romans 11 and not see a physical Israel regardless of what Galatians 4 says? How can people not read Paul and understand he was telling of a mystery revealed to him?

hobbs27 said:

Yes, I can tell you what changed. The old covenant is no more per 70 ad.

It did not completely end at the cross, as Hebrews 8:13 proves

It's all about covenant.

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so when did Judaism become a "made up" religion????

and no, the old covenant did not end in 70ad, regardless of how many times you say it did.

While we are at it, why don't you tell us when the 'time of the gentiles' ended, since Jesus came back in 70AD and completed all things?

NE GA Pappy said:

so when did Judaism become a "made up" religion????

and no, the old covenant did not end in 70ad, regardless of how many times you say it did.

While we are at it, why don't you tell us when the 'time of the gentiles' ended, since Jesus came back in 70AD and completed all things?

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I ask again. Who is "us'? What is your relationship to it, them?

gordon 2 said:

I ask again. Who is "us'?

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us = me and anyone else who cares to read this thread

does that suit you Gordon?

NE GA Pappy said:

us = me and anyone else who cares to read this thread

does that suit you Gordon?

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What is your authority to speak for anyone else who cares to read this thread?

gordon 2 said:

I ask again. Who is "us'? What is your relationship to it, them?

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Maybe if you ask a different way. Are you asking what is my relationship to Israel or Judiasm?

NE GA Pappy said:

so when did Judaism become a "made up" religion????

and no, the old covenant did not end in 70ad, regardless of how many times you say it did.

While we are at it, why don't you tell us when the 'time of the gentiles' ended, since Jesus came back in 70AD and completed all things?

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I'd like to see Hobbs or anyone for that matter take Judiasm out of Christianity's past.

I wanted to ask Hobbs when the Deliverer came from Zion and removed godlessness from Jacob but I think I know what his answer would be.

gordon 2 said:

What is your authority to speak for anyone else who cares to read this thread?

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I wasnt speaking for anyone else in this thread. If you don't like the way I word my post, then don't read them. Simple huh?

Us might be me and the mouse I have in my pocket. Us might be me and the cow in the pasture. What is it to you anyway?

I wasn't speaking to you anyway

NE GA Pappy said:

so when did Judaism become a "made up" religion????

and no, the old covenant did not end in 70ad, regardless of how many times you say it did.

While we are at it, why don't you tell us when the 'time of the gentiles' ended, since Jesus came back in 70AD and completed all things?

Click to expand...

here... this is a Jewish site, explaining how rabbinic Judaism was created after the temple destruction.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/judaism-after-the-temple/

Artfuldodger said:

I'd like to see Hobbs or anyone for that matter take Judiasm out of Christianity's past.

I wanted to ask Hobbs when the Deliverer came from Zion and removed godlessness from Jacob but I think I know what his answer would be.

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Was Job a Jew? Was Abraham a Jew? Was Jacob and Isaac Jew's?.... Nope, they did belong to the church of God, the same church of God we belong to today.

The Messiah was coming in their future. For true believers when he came they accepted Him. The apostates denied Him and denied the gospel, they were the goats that were separated from the sheep. The sheep were the remnant. Today we are believers in the very church of God that the remnant believed in.

We haven't replaced Judaism, we aren't a less significant bunch to Judaism.

Judaism, made up of the house of Judah and the Old covenant law was destroyed... The church of God was rid of that harlot.

hobbs27 said:

Was Job a Jew? Was Abraham a Jew? Was Jacob and Isaac Jew's?.... Nope, they did belong to the church of God, the same church of God we belong to today.

The Messiah was coming in their future. For true believers when he came they accepted Him. The apostates denied Him and denied the gospel, they were the goats that were separated from the sheep. The sheep were the remnant. Today we are believers in the very church of God that the remnant believed in.

We haven't replaced Judaism, we aren't a less significant bunch to Judaism.

Judaism, made up of the house of Judah and the Old covenant law was destroyed... The church of God was rid of that harlot.

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Romans 11:1-2
ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel:

"God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew."

"do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either."

Romans 11:25-27
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

hobbs27 said:

Was Job a Jew? Was Abraham a Jew? Was Jacob and Isaac Jew's?.... Nope, they did belong to the church of God, the same church of God we belong to today.

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What purpose did God use Israel for his plan to one's path to salvation?
Doesn't Jacob represent Israel? Wasn't Abraham the Father of the Hebrews?

How did God use Gentiles for his purpose of leading earthly Jews to salvation?
Paul said; I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery.

hobbs27 said:

Was Job a Jew? Was Abraham a Jew? Was Jacob and Isaac Jew's?.... Nope, they did belong to the church of God, the same church of God we belong to today.

The Messiah was coming in their future. For true believers when he came they accepted Him. The apostates denied Him and denied the gospel, they were the goats that were separated from the sheep. The sheep were the remnant. Today we are believers in the very church of God that the remnant believed in.

We haven't replaced Judaism, we aren't a less significant bunch to Judaism.

Judaism, made up of the house of Judah and the Old covenant law was destroyed... The church of God was rid of that harlot.

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Funny.... Jesus was from the tribe of Judah. You think that he cam and destroyed his own tribe?

Yes, I believe Abraham was the first Jew, and his descendants after him. Issac was circumsized on the eighth day, in accordance to the law. Abraham worshiped under the priest Melchizedek, who scripture says was the priest of the most high God.

Wonder who all the followers were of God at that point? Makes you wonder, doesn't it? It does me.

Hobbs, you once said that the heirs didn't replace Israel but were adopted into it as explained in Romans 11. The tree, the grafting, etc.

Now it sounds like your belief is more in line with the Reformed in that the heirs were never Israel and were always Christians from the beginning. Following that the heirs of the promises were never the genealogical seeds of Abraham.

Have your beliefs changed from that of being grafted into Israel? Do you see it now as national Jerusalem never being heirs to a belief that who God foreknew were only individual believers?
In other words no fulfillment or replacement as it has always been the same from the beginning.

How do you explain the God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew and that Gentiles were without God and excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world?

NE GA Pappy said:

Funny.... Jesus was from the tribe of Judah. You think that he cam and destroyed his own tribe?

Yes, I believe Abraham was the first Jew, and his descendants after him. Issac was circumsized on the eighth day, in accordance to the law. Abraham worshiped under the priest Melchizedek, who scripture says was the priest of the most high God.

Wonder who all the followers were of God at that point? Makes you wonder, doesn't it? It does me.

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His own tribe spit upon Him, cursed Him, had Him beaten, and crucified. Luke 21 says the temple destruction was the days of vengeance. If Christ was to take out vengeance, surely it would have to go out to His own tribe.

Abraham was Father of the Israelites... Jew's were just one nation (tribe) of Israel.