; Jordan Peterson - Georgia Outdoor News Forum
 


GON Magazine | GON Classifieds

Go Back   Georgia Outdoor News Forum > Spiritual Help and Religion Discussions > Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-12-2018, 11:10 PM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default Jordan Peterson

I like this guy's clear thinking most of the time. Watch how hard he struggles with the basic foundation of his Christian faith because he's a scientist. I admire this guy.

__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-12-2018, 11:55 PM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

By the way, I heard another guy on a podcast say something about engaging with opposite ideas to challenge one's own and that the collision of the ideas can sometimes yield the truth. I admire all you believers for coming down here and challenging your beliefs.

I don't think there's a way that any of the atheists or agnostics here could go in the Spiritual Discussions and Study forum to challenge our beliefs. Could you imagine what would happen if I went in there and tried to discuss scientifically how Jesus walked on water? It's not the place for open debate.
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21

Last edited by ambush80; 04-16-2018 at 12:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-13-2018, 05:46 AM
Israel's Avatar
Israel Israel is online now
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Guyton, Ga
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

I am well aware that you brought JBP to the table. Or that I, at least, was made aware of him by you. I've watched dozens of clips since then, most often enjoying them, and do appreciate your introduction.

It's almost a bit like gossiping were I to pick him apart, but since I believe this was made (that clip) with his assent to publication, I believe he's kind of assented also to criticism of a sort.
I am just at the beginning of it, but by :59 I see a faltering. "I can't answer that". With subsequent "It depends upon what you mean by Jesus"...

Never mind. There's already too much on the table less than two minutes in. But thanks.

This is what some guy was moved to write in the AM yesterday regarding the resurrection prior to seeing your post this morning.

https://israelx7wordpresscom.wordpress.com/
__________________
I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out." Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Divide"

Last edited by Israel; 04-14-2018 at 11:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-13-2018, 09:41 AM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel View Post
I am well aware that you brought JBP to the table. Or that I, at least, was made aware of him by you. I've watched dozens of clips since then, most often enjoying them, and do appreciate your introduction.

It's almost a bit like gossiping were I to pick him apart, but since I believe this was made (that clip) with his assent to publication, I believe he's kind of assented also to criticism of a sort.
I am just at the beginning of it, but by :59 I see a faltering. "I can't answer that". With subsequent "It depends upon what you mean by Jesus"...

Never mind. There's already too much on the table less than two minutes in. But thanks.

This is what some guy was moved to write in the AM yesterday regarding the resurrection prior to seeing your post this morning.

https://israelx7wordpresscom.wordpress.com/
It's a sign.
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:49 AM
Israel's Avatar
Israel Israel is online now
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Guyton, Ga
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
It's a sign.
Not really meant to be (at least by me). And there's a host of other things said by JBP ripe for discussion. Nevertheless, I do find it interesting...for everything hinges upon the resurrection...but as said...it's not merely an event, but a person.
__________________
I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out." Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Divide"

Last edited by Israel; 04-13-2018 at 11:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-13-2018, 01:23 PM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel View Post
Not really meant to be (at least by me). And there's a host of other things said by JBP ripe for discussion. Nevertheless, I do find it interesting...for everything hinges upon the resurrection...but as said...it's not merely an event, but a person.
Listening to Peterson shows me that a person fully committed to science and logic can make use of ancient mythology in a very meaningful way without having to believe in preposterous things. But he fails miserably when he says that he doesn't know what a person is capable of if they manage to find the right mix of dying and living. He doesn't seem to be implying that it would come from a technological advancement but from a spiritual exercise. If he thinks that this might allow for a resurrection he might as well say that people might be able to fly or shoot laser beams of of their eyes as well.

Rising from the dead, yes. Laser beams from the eyes, no. Why?
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:33 PM
Israel's Avatar
Israel Israel is online now
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Guyton, Ga
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
Listening to Peterson shows me that a person fully committed to science and logic can make use of ancient mythology in a very meaningful way without having to believe in preposterous things. But he fails miserably when he says that he doesn't know what a person is capable of if they manage to find the right mix of dying and living. He doesn't seem to be implying that it would come from a technological advancement but from a spiritual exercise. If he thinks that this might allow for a resurrection he might as well say that people might be able to fly or shoot laser beams of of their eyes as well.

Rising from the dead, yes. Laser beams from the eyes, no. Why?
He's struggling.
__________________
I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out." Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Divide"

Last edited by Israel; 04-15-2018 at 05:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-15-2018, 07:32 AM
Israel's Avatar
Israel Israel is online now
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Guyton, Ga
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

I've watched the vid a few more times and still retain a sympathy for JBP's trying to wend his way through. He has the problem a lot of really smart people have whose smartness has, to a great extent, informed their apparently successful status.
And let's face it, he has made a living being smart, and now from what I understand is seen (by some) as cashing in on that with his popularity. He's really sought after.

And that's fine. What others may say as to his cashing in means nothing to me per se, but I think both of us (as thus far we are the only two in discussion) are neither unaware, and perhaps, not willing to easily dismiss matters of conditioning and their consequences. It's hard to kill a goose laying golden eggs.

Well, maybe...only maybe.

Wealth (or that form of success), popularity, being sought for opinion (that often goes hand and hand with the previous) seem sweet consequences. How that may condition us toward and against certain other things, may not be easily discerned.

Who really wants to be seen ignorant...and therefore ignorable?

How this may all factor in I am not willing to commit to any condemnation of his position expressed in his words. And, I don't think he is unaware of it completely. I am more inclined to believe there's a lot more going on "inside him" than he can adequately express in word. It looks like he makes that pretty plain.
He's struggling.

It's interesting though, isn't it? To watch conflict. I don't think you're a guy who much goes for MMA and cage matches, but we may all have our indulgence in it. Conflict. What will win? What will show itself superior, that guy with the longer reach and quick feet...that idea...that character in a movie? So many seeming arenas for its display. And hook to hook us.

Everyone it seems "likes a good fight". Likewise, I don't think we much care for rigged ones, unfair ones (as they may appear to us)...where the heavyweight steps in to the ring with the feather weight (unless the feather weight may have a trick up his sleeve...in which case that becomes very, very sweet!).

If I could speak to JBP it would be this.
You have said truth is important, and to such an extent that you have highly recommended exercise in it. "Speak your truth", and let the chips fall where they may. Don't lie. Stop lying. Lying creates a dissonance in ones being. Let your truth out there (so to speak) for buffeting, for conflict, for contradiction...and BEAR it! Find out what happens when you speak (as best you can find words) in accord with what is true to you of your being. Stop...lying. (I don't think I have miss-characterized his expression) One can even do this around an Easter dinner table.

Besides which, I heartily endorse it. Find out who you are...when you stop lying.

The final arena of this should, and will, always lead to ones self. We speak "into the world" to discover we are speaking to, and for, ourself. ("I try to explain what I think about that" he says...standing for six hours giving biblical lectures) And I am persuaded that in "trying to explain" he's working things out in himself.

For "to ourself" is where we discover the most precious of lies is told. Sure, we may try to grease the world's wheels with whatever characterization of our self seems to appear most beneficial...but when we discover how many wheels within wheels are within us, we discover something quite apart. That grease is not as easily admitted to or (perhaps) even seen at the first.

So, I would ask him. "Is some wheel being greased to say you are a christian, but not convinced the life in Jesus Christ has overcome death (in the resurrection of his body) by His manifest presence to you...as being alive? How can one "be a christian" unconvinced Jesus Christ...is alive? (and that life being of such a sort as to you is both wondrous...and inexplicable) This is not even beginning to touch what Jesus said...about Himself. And what He would accomplish...and how.

Smart men encounter a problem when confronting what their smartness cannot explain. They will either submit their smartness is not as great (And O! how that wheel loves to be greased!) as they tell themselves, nor represent themselves to the world.

We can all start small. So small as described by Jesus (and can be seen, in Jesus)

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

And finding that grace to shuck off all the lies we embrace to make ourselves "look big"...as we grow...we find ourselves...even smaller, still. Yes, God has a deep and abiding affection for his little ones. How small will a man allow to see this?

I tell you...it's worth every bit of losing what appears "large" to gain Who truly is. Yet willing...to be made...so very small. For our benefit.
__________________
I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out." Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Divide"
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-15-2018, 11:25 AM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel View Post
I've watched the vid a few more times and still retain a sympathy for JBP's trying to wend his way through. He has the problem a lot of really smart people have whose smartness has, to a great extent, informed their apparently successful status.
And let's face it, he has made a living being smart, and now from what I understand is seen (by some) as cashing in on that with his popularity. He's really sought after.

And that's fine. What others may say as to his cashing in means nothing to me per se, but I think both of us (as thus far we are the only two in discussion) are neither unaware, and perhaps, not willing to easily dismiss matters of conditioning and their consequences. It's hard to kill a goose laying golden eggs.

Well, maybe...only maybe.

Wealth (or that form of success), popularity, being sought for opinion (that often goes hand and hand with the previous) seem sweet consequences. How that may condition us toward and against certain other things, may not be easily discerned.

Who really wants to be seen ignorant...and therefore ignorable?

How this may all factor in I am not willing to commit to any condemnation of his position expressed in his words. And, I don't think he is unaware of it completely. I am more inclined to believe there's a lot more going on "inside him" than he can adequately express in word. It looks like he makes that pretty plain.
He's struggling.

It's interesting though, isn't it? To watch conflict. I don't think you're a guy who much goes for MMA and cage matches, but we may all have our indulgence in it. Conflict. What will win? What will show itself superior, that guy with the longer reach and quick feet...that idea...that character in a movie? So many seeming arenas for its display. And hook to hook us.

Everyone it seems "likes a good fight". Likewise, I don't think we much care for rigged ones, unfair ones (as they may appear to us)...where the heavyweight steps in to the ring with the feather weight (unless the feather weight may have a trick up his sleeve...in which case that becomes very, very sweet!).

If I could speak to JBP it would be this.
You have said truth is important, and to such an extent that you have highly recommended exercise in it. "Speak your truth", and let the chips fall where they may. Don't lie. Stop lying. Lying creates a dissonance in ones being. Let your truth out there (so to speak) for buffeting, for conflict, for contradiction...and BEAR it! Find out what happens when you speak (as best you can find words) in accord with what is true to you of your being. Stop...lying. (I don't think I have miss-characterized his expression) One can even do this around an Easter dinner table.

Besides which, I heartily endorse it. Find out who you are...when you stop lying.

The final arena of this should, and will, always lead to ones self. We speak "into the world" to discover we are speaking to, and for, ourself. ("I try to explain what I think about that" he says...standing for six hours giving biblical lectures) And I am persuaded that in "trying to explain" he's working things out in himself.

For "to ourself" is where we discover the most precious of lies is told. Sure, we may try to grease the world's wheels with whatever characterization of our self seems to appear most beneficial...but when we discover how many wheels within wheels are within us, we discover something quite apart. That grease is not as easily admitted to or (perhaps) even seen at the first.

So, I would ask him. "Is some wheel being greased to say you are a christian, but not convinced the life in Jesus Christ has overcome death (in the resurrection of his body) by His manifest presence to you...as being alive? How can one "be a christian" unconvinced Jesus Christ...is alive? (and that life being of such a sort as to you is both wondrous...and inexplicable) This is not even beginning to touch what Jesus said...about Himself. And what He would accomplish...and how.

Smart men encounter a problem when confronting what their smartness cannot explain. They will either submit their smartness is not as great (And O! how that wheel loves to be greased!) as they tell themselves, nor represent themselves to the world.

We can all start small. So small as described by Jesus (and can be seen, in Jesus)

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

And finding that grace to shuck off all the lies we embrace to make ourselves "look big"...as we grow...we find ourselves...even smaller, still. Yes, God has a deep and abiding affection for his little ones. How small will a man allow to see this?

I tell you...it's worth every bit of losing what appears "large" to gain Who truly is. Yet willing...to be made...so very small. For our benefit.
He's struggling and he should. If one asserts the truth of a human resurrection from the dead one should struggle as mightily with that as the notion of a man flying or shooting laser beams from his eyes.

How precious is the lie that someone is at the helm, that he cares for me, that he has super powers and that he will let me live forever? How big would all that attention make someone feel? Big enough and important enough to fly a plane into a building or vote for a particular candidate with the faith of one who has received revelation? They're just humble servants after all.

He should struggle with a claim like "a rock fell up". What kind of people wouldn't struggle with such a claim? People of faith? The more I hear the story about "hitting my knees and in humility I found the strength" the more I think that the strength comes from the new found willingness to accept the irrational. "With God behind us, who can defeat us".
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21

Last edited by ambush80; 04-15-2018 at 12:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-15-2018, 11:34 AM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

When Peterson breaks through his issue he will become just another preacher. He's practicing now with his Biblical lectures. The only thing he's lacking is the hubris to say "God told me this and now I'm telling you". His lack of that particular hubris comes from his scientific training and it's demand for rationality.
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-15-2018, 11:42 AM
Israel's Avatar
Israel Israel is online now
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Guyton, Ga
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
He's struggling and he should. If one asserts the truth of a human resurrection from the dead one should struggle as mightily with that as the notion of a man flying or shooting laser beams from his eyes.

How precious is the lie that someone is at the helm, that he cares for me, that he has super powers and that he will let me live forever? How big would all that attention make someone feel. Big enough and important enough to fly a plane into a building or vote for a particular candidate with the faith of one who has received revelation? They're just humble servants after all.

He should struggle with the claim like "a rock fell up". What kind of people wouldn't struggle with such a claim? People of faith? The more I hear the story about "hitting my knees and in humility I found the strength" the more I think that the strength comes from the new found willingness to accept the irrational. "With God behind us, who can defeat us".
It's convenient to make all of one. Pilots and voters and Jesus Christ. Some plainly do not see nor hear His singularity. Or...find it safer to themselves...to deny it.
__________________
I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out." Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Divide"
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-15-2018, 12:28 PM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel View Post
It's convenient to make all of one. Pilots and voters and Jesus Christ. Some plainly do not see nor hear His singularity. Or...find it safer to themselves...to deny it.
Obviously not all Muslims fly planes into buildings and not all Christians vote against stem cell research but allowing oneself to believe in resurrection opens the door to many other fantastic beliefs. His singularity is the key that opens the door to Wonderland and He11.

Again, resurrection, yes. Laser beams from the eyes, no. Why?
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-15-2018, 12:41 PM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Why does the resurrection have to be literal but not all the other miracles? Why are some easier to let go of then the others? Is it the promise of everlasting life? Would thinking Jesus' resurrection as symbolic be like seeing Xerxes bleed?
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-15-2018, 12:44 PM
Israel's Avatar
Israel Israel is online now
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Guyton, Ga
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

God purposed man to know eternal life and forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ. Laser beams are not addressed. (That I know of)

But the Lord has made clear in so many ways...be careful in what regard you esteem one another; "see" one another...a jaundiced eye, full of malice...or in hope for one another. Wishing evil upon another, comes with its own stripes. And if, or when they are revealed as necessary...it is far better to submit to them...than lose one's soul.
__________________
I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out." Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Divide"
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-15-2018, 12:49 PM
Israel's Avatar
Israel Israel is online now
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Guyton, Ga
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
Why does the resurrection have to be literal but not all the other miracles? Why are some easier to let go of then the others? Is it the promise of everlasting life? Would thinking Jesus' resurrection as symbolic be like seeing Xerxes bleed?
It doesn't "have to be" anything but what it is.
And it's crucial. In the deepest root meaning of that word.

And there is much of stumbling about it, for it is more than an event, more than a "fact".

"I am the resurrection and the life..."


Jesus is the resurrection out from the dead.
__________________
I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out." Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Divide"
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-15-2018, 12:59 PM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel View Post
God purposed man to know eternal life and forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ. Laser beams are not addressed. (That I know of)

But the Lord has made clear in so many ways...be careful in what regard you esteem one another; "see" one another...a jaundiced eye, full of malice...or in hope for one another. Wishing evil upon another, comes with its own stripes. And if, or when they are revealed as necessary...it is far better to submit to them...than lose one's soul.
But if the Bible said Jesus shot laser beams out of his eyes you would believe it. Doesn't that make you cringe just a little bit?
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21

Last edited by ambush80; 04-15-2018 at 01:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-15-2018, 01:02 PM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel View Post
It doesn't "have to be" anything but what it is.
And it's crucial. In the deepest root meaning of that word.

And there is much of stumbling about it, for it is more than an event, more than a "fact".

"I am the resurrection and the life..."


Jesus is the resurrection out from the dead.
Depends on what the definition of "is" is?

I think that's where Peterson is. What is the resurrection and the resurrected? Real? Myth? Archetype? Only one of those propositions seems ridiculous.
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-15-2018, 03:41 PM
Israel's Avatar
Israel Israel is online now
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Guyton, Ga
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
Depends on what the definition of "is" is?

I think that's where Peterson is. What is the resurrection and the resurrected? Real? Myth? Archetype? Only one of those propositions seems ridiculous.
Depends on what the definition of "real" is. If the real is what is true, then anything coming out from what is not of the real...is not true.

This is what he approaches (I perceive) when he says those things about truth and greater truths than mere facts.

But yes, I believe the resurrection of the body is sufficient to all these, real, true, and fact. And that Jesus Himself is that..."out from the dead".

Of course some men may say "but how can you believe this?" To say it has much to do with an epiphany, a touch, an enlightenment, a revelation has (in the past, and at least to a certain moment) appeared as useless...to you.

And from what he says, JBP may occupy (at least in this video) a curious place of trying to "factor" in the resurrection by factoring in what he already believes to be true. "The universe is a strange place". Berlinski also noted this. Stuff is often shown to be not at all as it seems.

The reality of being, and consciousness...these things which are certainly perceived, even to the point of being grossly taken for granted...upon closer look suddenly become in some ways (though so easily assumed as foundational) quite mysterious. "How do I know...what I think I know"?

What is the way in which the "out there" comes into me to be made real to me in such a way...as I believe it real?" The a priori here is also worth a closer look. "Why do I even believe I am real (in such a way) that the real can be related to...within me?"
And yes...there is no barring the ready anecdote of the man, coming home early to what he believes is his loving wife, finding a lover escaping out the back window.
Yes, that man may well question..."how do I know (and may I ever know?) what is true?"

I could easily use myself as an example of certain things, but I know how tedious this can become. But...I cannot exclude this...the immediate and in a moment reality that has come, and by testimony come to many who are suddenly exposed to a light that both shows "I am not who I think I am" (and all my knowing is now forfeit) and therefore things are not at all the way I have previously...presumed. My reality detector is shown...defunct, by blinding light. In blinding light. And the light that shows my understandings completely corrupt...is the very light...that saves.

It can never "factor" for that. Men like to move from the know something...to the know...more.
What is needed is found here "Forgive them Father, they don't know..."

and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.

Young's Literal

yes, the resurrection is blinding to what needs blinding to STOP. And no man knows just how much blinding he needs to one way...to see another. But, Jesus is. The way.
__________________
I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out." Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Divide"
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-15-2018, 04:40 PM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel View Post
Depends on what the definition of "real" is. If the real is what is true, then anything coming out from what is not of the real...is not true.

This is what he approaches (I perceive) when he says those things about truth and greater truths than mere facts.

But yes, I believe the resurrection of the body is sufficient to all these, real, true, and fact. And that Jesus Himself is that..."out from the dead".

Of course some men may say "but how can you believe this?" To say it has much to do with an epiphany, a touch, an enlightenment, a revelation has (in the past, and at least to a certain moment) appeared as useless...to you.

And from what he says, JBP may occupy (at least in this video) a curious place of trying to "factor" in the resurrection by factoring in what he already believes to be true. "The universe is a strange place". Berlinski also noted this. Stuff is often shown to be not at all as it seems.

The reality of being, and consciousness...these things which are certainly perceived, even to the point of being grossly taken for granted...upon closer look suddenly become in some ways (though so easily assumed as foundational) quite mysterious. "How do I know...what I think I know"?

What is the way in which the "out there" comes into me to be made real to me in such a way...as I believe it real?" The a priori here is also worth a closer look. "Why do I even believe I am real (in such a way) that the real can be related to...within me?"
And yes...there is no barring the ready anecdote of the man, coming home early to what he believes is his loving wife, finding a lover escaping out the back window.
Yes, that man may well question..."how do I know (and may I ever know?) what is true?"

I could easily use myself as an example of certain things, but I know how tedious this can become. But...I cannot exclude this...the immediate and in a moment reality that has come, and by testimony come to many who are suddenly exposed to a light that both shows "I am not who I think I am" (and all my knowing is now forfeit) and therefore things are not at all the way I have previously...presumed. My reality detector is shown...defunct, by blinding light. In blinding light. And the light that shows my understandings completely corrupt...is the very light...that saves.

It can never "factor" for that. Men like to move from the know something...to the know...more.
What is needed is found here "Forgive them Father, they don't know..."

and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.

Young's Literal

yes, the resurrection is blinding to what needs blinding to STOP. And no man knows just how much blinding he needs to one way...to see another. But, Jesus is. The way.
So, yes to the possibility of laser beams from the eyes.

Enjoy that.
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-15-2018, 06:14 PM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

How do you know that the voice in your head is really Jesus? Did he identify himself as such? Why would you believe him? How do you know it's not some malevolent force deceiving you? How do you know it's not just some run of the mill ghost or maybe a forest nymph?

I would like to ask Peterson if he believes in disembodied spirits. I would ask him if he thinks these spirits can literally affect matter. I would ask him if he thinks that Jesus could fire laser beams out of his eyes if he wanted to.

If I were to approach the situation objectively I would be compelled to ask "What is this spirit being, disembodied, invisible force's motivation?" From my understanding, it apparently wants you to believe that Jesus is Lord and that the Bible is the inerrant recording of his instructions. Is that a fair assessment? Why would this force want you to believe in bizarre and unscientific things? What good does it think will come from you believing such things.

It's equally important to consider what bad does it think will come from believing such things?
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-16-2018, 04:51 PM
Israel's Avatar
Israel Israel is online now
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Guyton, Ga
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
So, yes to the possibility of laser beams from the eyes.

Enjoy that.
I did.

But why be so parochial in thinking?

Why not beam tortoise toenails?

Or picnic baskets full of fried chicken?
Nah, truth trumps lasers and toenails.

But settle for what you will.
__________________
I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out." Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Divide"
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-16-2018, 05:00 PM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel View Post
I did.

But why be so parochial in thinking?

Why not beam tortoise toenails?

Or picnic baskets full of fried chicken?
Nah, truth trumps lasers and toenails.

But settle for what you will.
I like yours too. How about "Can someone who gets the right mix of living and dying vomit cotton candy? I don't know what we're capable of." Could Jesus do it if he wanted? If it said that he did in the Bible would you believe it?
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-16-2018, 06:33 PM
Israel's Avatar
Israel Israel is online now
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Guyton, Ga
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
I like yours too. How about "Can someone who gets the right mix of living and dying vomit cotton candy? I don't know what we're capable of." Could Jesus do it if he wanted? If it said that he did in the Bible would you believe it?

Since the word may have come forth C12 H22 O11, or it may just as easily have come forth in both language and tones inconceivable, (or even all to me of silence) I have no problem with cotton candy originating through His mouth. I don't think God is ever obligated to call stuff with the assignations we come up with. But, then He is also free to limit himself when, and if, it's to Him, of purpose.
So in that sense, not only do I not mind eating what comes forth from His mouth, I don't know of anything of more benefit to me. When cotton candy is included...that's OK, too.

But that's the thing. It seems that JBP is talking about some arcane spiritual exercise, Jesus never said it was that. We look at mechanisms. We mostly grasp in terms of mechanisms. JBP never once mentions..."hey...perhaps paying attention to God our Father will show us what we don't know". Now, I don't think He's wrong to be amazed to the extent of wanting to know "what's going on inside Jesus".."what's Jesus doing that could allow this?" In fact, I think that (if it is indeed any portion of JBP's wonder) is indeed a good thing.
But to think that Jesus was concerned with some exercise other than paying the strictest attention to His Father, and that it was always His Father doing the works...through Him...well...


But Jesus was quite plain..."of myself, I can do nothing." No working this stuff "up"...no effort of oneself, manages any of it.

It's not that folks weren't "wowed" and wanted to know the secret. "What must we do to do the works of God"...they asked. I can't help but think it was "how do we get our hands on this power".

Jesus told them. And told them the work. And the why of the work. And who is always at work.

To find that...to believe that...to see that...even if brought merely by a craven desire for power (in seeing your own powerlessness displayed by an exceeding power you have never witnessed) well, to pay attention is all there is. Pay attention to the Authority. Look for Him, listen for Him...believe in Him (and into Him)...through His word...because He is the One...sent from God. And find yourself in Jesus Christ...where God dwells with man. A man. That man.

You ask "how do I know its not a malevolent force I have listened to?" Well, to be truthful, because I have. I have fallen for many voices. And the children such wisdom beget...to me were not healthful, at all. I do not need to "figure out" when I am hungry, sick, or in desperation. When those things become painfully clear to me...(and they do still quite frequently) I don't have to "figure out" there's something to me, amiss. As the body speaks...so does the Spirit...for when I am in need, I lack.

To say it used to be "I lack something" (and still does occasionally), all the more it is becoming "I am missing Him" somewhere...somewhere in this hunger, lack, pain, desperation. His appearing is the remedy, His manifestation the cure. But it is no trick...that summons Him, no working up...some form of a deal. I hunger to death...and He shows up. I don't know how to go to that place, nor is it even in my will...to want to. I don't even know I am headed there, as I go. I often think "I have enough for this next step" and move into that completely new moment of all unknowing to find "No. No I don't have what I thought I had for this moment, I must find Him...now"

Who wants to be blessed with hunger? Who can see the blessing in being blind? Who wants to appear so small as needing always to be led?

But...when He appears (because He is the resurrection...and the life) it all makes far more perfect sense...than I can begin to express.

It's never that He wasn't...or isn't there...but that the training of hunger might do its work...to find who is always there, here, everywhere...filling all...even in what appears the darkness of all my not knowing.

Do I "have to believe this", because of the Bible?

A man seeking to find the way home and out of the miasma of darkness is glad for every sign of help.


I hope to be planting corn tomorrow. In that hope lies another, the hope to see first the blade, then the ear, and then the full corn in the ear. And all I need do is to continue in hope. I have tasted its absence, and God forbid it.
__________________
I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out." Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Divide"

Last edited by Israel; 04-16-2018 at 07:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-16-2018, 08:00 PM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel View Post
Since the word may have come forth C12 H22 O11, or it may just as easily have come forth in both language and tones inconceivable, (or even all to me of silence) I have no problem with cotton candy originating through His mouth. I don't think God is ever obligated to call stuff with the assignations we come up with. But, then He is also free to limit himself when, and if, it's to Him, of purpose.
So in that sense, not only do I not mind eating what comes forth from His mouth, I don't know of anything of more benefit to me. When cotton candy is included...that's OK, too.

But that's the thing. It seems that JBP is talking about some arcane spiritual exercise, Jesus never said it was that. We look at mechanisms. We mostly grasp in terms of mechanisms. JBP never once mentions..."hey...perhaps paying attention to God our Father will show us what we don't know". Now, I don't think He's wrong to be amazed to the extent of wanting to know "what's going on inside Jesus".."what's Jesus doing that could allow this?" In fact, I think that (if it is indeed any portion of JBP's wonder) is indeed a good thing.
But to think that Jesus was concerned with some exercise other than paying the strictest attention to His Father, and that it was always His Father doing the works...through Him...well...


But Jesus was quite plain..."of myself, I can do nothing." No working this stuff "up"...no effort of oneself, manages any of it.

It's not that folks weren't "wowed" and wanted to know the secret. "What must we do to do the works of God"...they asked. I can't help but think it was "how do we get our hands on this power".

Jesus told them. And told them the work. And the why of the work. And who is always at work.

To find that...to believe that...to see that...even if brought merely by a craven desire for power (in seeing your own powerlessness displayed by an exceeding power you have never witnessed) well, to pay attention is all there is. Pay attention to the Authority. Look for Him, listen for Him...believe in Him (and into Him)...through His word...because He is the One...sent from God. And find yourself in Jesus Christ...where God dwells with man. A man. That man.

You ask "how do I know its not a malevolent force I have listened to?" Well, to be truthful, because I have. I have fallen for many voices. And the children such wisdom beget...to me were not healthful, at all. I do not need to "figure out" when I am hungry, sick, or in desperation. When those things become painfully clear to me...(and they do still quite frequently) I don't have to "figure out" there's something to me, amiss. As the body speaks...so does the Spirit...for when I am in need, I lack.

To say it used to be "I lack something" (and still does occasionally), all the more it is becoming "I am missing Him" somewhere...somewhere in this hunger, lack, pain, desperation. His appearing is the remedy, His manifestation the cure. But it is no trick...that summons Him, no working up...some form of a deal. I hunger to death...and He shows up. I don't know how to go to that place, nor is it even in my will...to want to. I don't even know I am headed there, as I go. I often think "I have enough for this next step" and move into that completely new moment of all unknowing to find "No. No I don't have what I thought I had for this moment, I must find Him...now"

Who wants to be blessed with hunger? Who can see the blessing in being blind? Who wants to appear so small as needing always to be led?

But...when He appears (because He is the resurrection...and the life) it all makes far more perfect sense...than I can begin to express.

It's never that He wasn't...or isn't there...but that the training of hunger might do its work...to find who is always there, here, everywhere...filling all...even in what appears the darkness of all my not knowing.

Do I "have to believe this", because of the Bible?

A man seeking to find the way home and out of the miasma of darkness is glad for every sign of help.


I hope to be planting corn tomorrow. In that hope lies another, the hope to see first the blade, then the ear, and then the full corn in the ear. And all I need do is to continue in hope. I have tasted its absence, and God forbid it.

Wow.

When I asked you if Jesus can vomit cotton candy or if it were written in the Bible that he did would you believe it you went into a tailspin. A simple yes or no would suffice and then you could bloviate all you wanted. The question itself seems ridiculous but the problem is that it's not anymore ridiculous than asking if Jesus rose from the dead. That's why Peterson has such trouble answering it.

Now you're struggling, struggling to remain coherent. People don't rise from the dead or vomit cotton candy or shoot laser beams out of their eyes or fly or walk on water.
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-16-2018, 08:11 PM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is offline
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Isreal,

You seem to have an easier time gaining purchase in the discussion upstairs about whether the streets in Heaven are made of actual gold.
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004 Georgia Outdoor News, Inc.Ad Management by RedTyger