Been a while

Israel

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To say there is no plan one might have to be equipped to identify how plan appears. Can one say plan is a real thing, but absent? From where is this reality of plan then that one says "There is none"?
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
To say there is no plan one might have to be equipped to identify how plan appears. Can one say plan is a real thing, but absent? From where is this reality of plan then that one says "There is none"?
Or
Ask the people who constantly claim there is a plan to back up their claim.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
2000+ precisely fulfilled prophecies.

You say that but do not discuss what the prophecies are and how they got fulfilled.
When brought up previously, you ignore the prophecies that absolutely in no way shape or form have been fulfilled. And are blind to the Jewish history where other figures actually fulfilled more prophecies than Jesus, yet still fell short of meeting the credentials for a Messiah.

When shown that the writers of the NT had the advantage of knowing the OT and writing the NT character to try to fulfill those prophecies(yet still failing even with that advantage), you ignore it and continue on.
 

welderguy

Senior Member
You say that but do not discuss what the prophecies are and how they got fulfilled.
When brought up previously, you ignore the prophecies that absolutely in no way shape or form have been fulfilled. And are blind to the Jewish history where other figures actually fulfilled more prophecies than Jesus, yet still fell short of meeting the credentials for a Messiah.

When shown that the writers of the NT had the advantage of knowing the OT and writing the NT character to try to fulfill those prophecies(yet still failing even with that advantage), you ignore it and continue on.

Secular history and archaeology also support many of those fulfilled prophecies.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Secular history and archaeology also support many of those fulfilled prophecies.

Welder you can constantly say these things but until you back them up they are useless and meaningless.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
THE CRITERIA TO BE FULFILLED BY THE JEWISH MESSIAH

In an accurate translation of the Jewish Scriptures, the word "Moshiach" is never translated as "Messiah," but as "anointed."1Nevertheless, Judaism has always maintained a fundamental belief in a Messianic figure. Since the concept of a Messiah is one that was given by G-d to the Jews, Jewish tradition is best qualified to describe and recognize the expected Messiah. This tradition has its foundation in numerous biblical references, many of which are cited below. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being (with no connotation of deity or divinity) who will bring about certain changes in the world and who must fulfill certain specific criteria before being acknowledged as the Messiah.

These specific criteria are as follows:

1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17)

2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah(Genesis 49:10) and a direct male descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)

3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)

4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)

5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)

6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)

All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in the book of Ezekiel chapter 37:24-28:

"And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, andCensoredkeep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuaryin their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, he cannot be the Messiah.”
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10,Censored2 Chronicles 7:18)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)Censored

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-15:5)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt resuming many of the suspended mitzvot (Ezekiel 40)

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without study (Jeremiah 31:33)[3]

He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3,Amos 9:13-15,Ezekiel 36:29-30,Isaiah 11:6-9)
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Welder, wait....let me guess...
"Jesus is going to do all of the things that he hasnt done...."

So are all the rest of the guys in their 2nd, 3rd 4th etc etc comings.
 

welderguy

Senior Member
Welder you can constantly say these things but until you back them up they are useless and meaningless.

Do an honest study on it with an open mind to receive true knowledge.
I don't have time to do it for you. You wouldn't listen to me anyhow, you never have before.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Do an honest study on it with an open mind to receive true knowledge.
I don't have time to do it for you. You wouldn't listen to me anyhow, you never have before.

I have.
The study leads me to believe that Jesus did not fulfull what was required based off of the evidence that I presented to you above.

When I offer you the chance to take your claim and dazzle me with evidence that backs up your claim you bow out.
Typical
 

welderguy

Senior Member
I have.
The study leads me to believe that Jesus did not fulfull what was required based off of the evidence that I presented to you above.

When I offer you the chance to take your claim and dazzle me with evidence that backs up your claim you bow out.
Typical

I can't help you. Sorry.:(
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
I can't help you. Sorry.:(

Are you able to stop the unverifiable claims?
Why constantly post things that you know you do not posess the knowledge and more importantly facts to back them up?
Help would be providing those things and why you cannot help.
 

welderguy

Senior Member
Are you able to stop the unverifiable claims?
Why constantly post things that you know you do not posess the knowledge and more importantly facts to back them up?
Help would be providing those things and why you cannot help.

Just do this one thing for me,ok.

Tell me how it was foretold the exact time that Cyrus was born, his name, the exact time he would begin to rule, what he would accomplish during his reign, and the exact time he would decree to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem.

Secular history alone supports all this as precisely fulfilled.

Do you know the odds of all of it coming true exactly as prophecied?
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Just do this one thing for me,ok.

Tell me how it was foretold the exact time that Cyrus was born, his name, the exact time he would begin to rule, what he would accomplish during his reign, and the exact time he would decree to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem.

Secular history alone supports all this as precisely fulfilled.

Do you know the odds of all of it coming true exactly as prophecied?

Show me where this written/foretold.
Show me where secular history supports it.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
A story comes to mind when fulfilled prophesy is written afterwards.
“While traveling through a forest, a person noticed a circle marked on a tree with an arrow shot perfectly into the center. A few yards away he noticed several more targets, each with arrows in the center. Later, he met the talented archer and he asked him, "How did you become such an expert that you always get your arrows into the center of the bull's-eye?" "It's not difficult," responded the archer, "First I shoot the arrow and then I draw the circle."
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
And lets not forget that Isaiah was written by at least two different writers.
 

welderguy

Senior Member
Let me help you, I see you're struggling a little.
Isaiah (740 BC-681BC)
Cyrus the great, born in 590BC.

Isaiah prophecied of Cyrus BEFORE he was born.
 

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Let me help you, I see you're struggling a little.
Isaiah (740 BC-681BC)
Cyrus the great, born in 590BC.

Isaiah prophecied of Cyrus BEFORE he was born.

Yes I was struggling a little, this cleared it up.

"Modern scholarship considers the Book of Isaiah to be an anthology, the two principal compositions of which are the Book of Isaiah proper (chapters 1-39, with some exceptions), containing the words of the prophet Isaiah himself, dating from the time of the First Temple, around 700 BCE, and Second Isaiah (Deutero-Isaiah, chapters 40-66), comprising the words of an anonymous prophet, who lived some one hundred and fifty years later, around the time of the Babylonian exile and the restoration of the Temple in the Persian Period. By the time our Isaiah Scroll was copied (the last third of the second century BCE), the book was already regarded as a single composition.

If so, no miracles or prophecies are required to explain the mention of Cyrus in the Book of Isaiah: Chapter 45, where his name is mentioned, was originally written during the time of Cyrus's rule."
 
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