Georgias deer herd by the numbers and by those who know

C.Killmaster

Georgia Deer Biologist
Good to know he knows the numbers. Now that we are all in agreement that there are a lot fewer deer, could you you or Jbowers help me understand why the belief is that a process which worked to reduce the deer herd will stop working without a change in the process?

You mention public input a lot. I have noticed on this forum there is a lot of input either way. How is the input measured, and who decides which public input is the accurate input?

You have already asked that question, please refer back to Post # 88. Please take the time to read my responses if you expect me to take the time to answer your questions.

Regarding public input, please refer to page 3 in the deer management plan that I already provided a link to.
 

Sterlo58

Senior Member
I am giving away my age by posting this but I remember when I started deer hunting it was a rare sight to see deer. Just the sight of a doe ( which you could not shoot for much of the season ) got your heart pumping. We just didn't have many in most parts of the state. Younger hunters don't realize how good they have it. The numbers may not be at their peak but that is not a bad thing. Quality of deer is way up as far as body size and antler size. I just don't buy into the theory that hunters are limiting out and decimating the herd. Yes...hunting and predation are keeping the numbers down but that is not a bad thing. On our club, we control the herd and on average shoot 2 deer per member. We have plenty of deer but not so many as to over browse. If we see the need in the future we will shoot more.

Too many young spoiled hunters out there who expect to see 10 - 15 deer a sitting every trip. Ain't gunna happen. Enjoy what are still the golden years of deer hunting. :cool:
 

JB0704

The Original JB
You have already asked that question, please refer back to Post # 88. Please take the time to read my responses if you expect me to take the time to answer your questions.

I did read your response, here is the applicable statement:

Statewide, the population has been stable for 3 years resulting from self-restraint and active management from hunters. If that changes and the population trends from stable to decreasing, regulations will be adjusted accordingly. The population estimates that you see are always minimum estimates, true population size is always higher.

From what I can tell, your response indicated that the process will remain, and the current plan is to trust hunters to show restraint. If I am reading that correctly, that means you believe that hunters will change the process on their own, and "do the right thing." If that is correct, then I guess you did answer it. However, my belief is that past behavior is a heavy indicator of future behavior. I was hoping there was a scientific response which did not rely on the good will of others.

If that is the case, hunters can be trusted to do the right thing, why have seasons at all? Let's just write a nice letter in the regs indicating that the fall is the best time to kill deer.

Regarding public input, please refer to page 3 in the deer management plan that I already provided a link to.

I read that as well. It seems to rely on input recieved in 2004 and 2005, and Georgia was seperated into 4 geographic regions. I wonder if today's conditions mirror those?
 

mtr3333

Banned
I am giving away my age by posting this but I remember when I started deer hunting it was a rare sight to see deer. Just the sight of a doe ( which you could not shoot for much of the season ) got your heart pumping. We just didn't have many in most parts of the state. Younger hunters don't realize how good they have it. The numbers may not be at their peak but that is not a bad thing. Quality of deer is way up as far as body size and antler size. I just don't buy into the theory that hunters are limiting out and decimating the herd. Yes...hunting and predation are keeping the numbers down but that is not a bad thing. On our club, we control the herd and on average shoot 2 deer per member. We have plenty of deer but not so many as to over browse. If we see the need in the future we will shoot more.

Too many young spoiled hunters out there who expect to see 10 - 15 deer a sitting every trip. Ain't gunna happen. Enjoy what are still the golden years of deer hunting. :cool:
That is not good for the deer either. It is a long story.
 

JB0704

The Original JB
Too many young spoiled hunters out there who expect to see 10 - 15 deer a sitting every trip.

Just one man's "public input" here. Last year, I saw 2 bucks for every doe, trail cams verified this ratio. I guess I am spoiled into thinking that is a bit "off."
 

Nicodemus

The Recluse
Staff member
Just one man's "public input" here. Last year, I saw 2 bucks for every doe, trail cams verified this ratio. I guess I am spoiled into thinking that is a bit "off."



My opinion echoes the opinion of Sterlo. Sounds like you had a good year, so why are you fussin`?
 

JB0704

The Original JB
My opinion echoes the opinion of Sterlo. Sounds like you had a good year, so why are you fussin`?

Nic, I am not trying to be disrespectful to you, Elfii, C.Killmaster, JBowers, or any of the others on here. If I come across as that, it is not intentional. You all seem like good folks to me.

But, who sets the bar for what a good year is? Just becuase it was once terrible, do we now accept "bad."

My only point is that there are less deer. The trend is steady, and I am concerned we will all end up wondering why we aren't seeing any does. The does are what continues the population.
 

Nicodemus

The Recluse
Staff member
Nic, I am not trying to be disrespectful to you, Elfii, C.Killmaster, JBowers, or any of the others on here. If I come across as that, it is not intentional. You all seem like good folks to me.

But, who sets the bar for what a good year is? Just becuase it was once terrible, do we now accept "bad."

My only point is that there are less deer. The trend is steady, and I am concerned we will all end up wondering why we aren't seeing any does. The does are what continues the population.



Each individual sets the bar for himself on what is a good year. I hunt several different properties and places down here in sw Georgia. Some of these places you wouldn`t believe unless you saw them because there are so many deer. One or two others, not so many deer. I hunt each place accordin` to the population of the area and regulate myself accordingly.

Last season is the first year that I haven`t killed at least one deer in the 46 or 47 years that there has been a deer season where I hunt. I simply didn`t see anything at the time I felt like shootin`, but my wife did take a fine buck for herself. Even if she hadn`t, I still consider this past season a success. Why? Because I saw deer, I got in the woods and swamp, and I had fun.

As has been stated, we are in the Golden Age of deer huntin` in Georgia. Rather than cast doubt at how the folks are managin` the deer herd, cut them some slack and let them do their job. lookin` back over 50 years, and even further that I can see, they have done very well.
 

JB0704

The Original JB
Each individual sets the bar for himself on what is a good year. I hunt several different properties and places down here in sw Georgia. Some of these places you wouldn`t believe unless you saw them because there are so many deer. One or two others, not so many deer. I hunt each place accordin` to the population of the area and regulate myself accordingly..

And I believe you, and I also believe there are many others like you who regulate themselves. This board is full of good folks who have the best interest of the deer herd in mind. We just disagree on what that involves.


As has been stated, we are in the Golden Age of deer huntin` in Georgia. Rather than cast doubt at how the folks are managin` the deer herd, cut them some slack and let them do their job. lookin` back over 50 years, and even further that I can see, they have done very well.

I tried to be very clear ealier in this thread that I was not questioning anybody's intentions or education. I believe the folks at WRD have good intentions and know TONS more than I do about this stuff. I guess the best way to put it is that I do not trust hunters to "do the right thing" as much as they do. This could be because I was raised in a hunting environment where game law violations were common, deer were shot just because they were deer, and folks were not embarassed to admit to killing over their limit (of bucks and does back then). I knew several road hunters, and one fella who would shoot them under a street light. So, for me at least, it is difficult to accept the goodness of men as the primary regulator of our deer herd.

My hunting experience began in the late 80's. So my perspective is based on that time frame. In those 20+ years, I would say the last 5+ have been the worst from a numbers perspective. That's all. Just my input.

Thanks for your perspective. I do appreciate getting insight from those who have been around a lot longer than me, whether I agree or not.
 

RipperIII

Senior Member
Last season is the first year that I haven`t killed at least one deer ....

As has been stated, we are in the Golden Age of deer huntin` in Georgia. Rather than cast doubt at how the folks are managin` the deer herd, cut them some slack and let them do their job. lookin` back over 50 years, and even further that I can see, they have done very well.

Take this for what it's worth,...this was my 4th deer season, I saw more bucks than does by over a 2-1 ratio...not complaining, saw at least 3 different shooter bucks but circumstances prevented me from taking a shot.

The thought did cross my mind as to the apparent lack of doe sightings,...don't know if I should be concerned or not.

We hunt 1240 acres in Butts co.
We Normally take 1-2 bucks, and about 6 doe each year.
We took 3 bucks and 4 doe this year.

Personally, I did not take a single deer here in Ga.

I saw some great action, but not near the numbers.
 

HucK Finn

Senior Member
Take this for what it's worth,...this was my 4th deer season, I saw more bucks than does by over a 2-1 ratio...not complaining, saw at least 3 different shooter bucks but circumstances prevented me from taking a shot.

The thought did cross my mind as to the apparent lack of doe sightings,...don't know if I should be concerned or not.

We hunt 1240 acres in Butts co.
We Normally take 1-2 bucks, and about 6 doe each year.
We took 3 bucks and 4 doe this year.

Personally, I did not take a single deer here in Ga.

I saw some great action, but not near the numbers.

With ratios like that, we would we better off to allow people to kill more bucks than does. I like to let em grow so I never thought I would be saying this, but Id rather see the doe tags lowered and the "any-sized" buck tags increased.
We all know this but; you take several bucks out of a heard and other buck will pick up the slack, a doe lost is a fawn lost...
 

Nicodemus

The Recluse
Staff member
And I believe you, and I also believe there are many others like you who regulate themselves. This board is full of good folks who have the best interest of the deer herd in mind. We just disagree on what that involves.




I tried to be very clear ealier in this thread that I was not questioning anybody's intentions or education. I believe the folks at WRD have good intentions and know TONS more than I do about this stuff. I guess the best way to put it is that I do not trust hunters to "do the right thing" as much as they do. This could be because I was raised in a hunting environment where game law violations were common, deer were shot just because they were deer, and folks were not embarassed to admit to killing over their limit (of bucks and does back then). I knew several road hunters, and one fella who would shoot them under a street light. So, for me at least, it is difficult to accept the goodness of men as the primary regulator of our deer herd.

My hunting experience began in the late 80's. So my perspective is based on that time frame. In those 20+ years, I would say the last 5+ have been the worst from a numbers perspective. That's all. Just my input.

Thanks for your perspective. I do appreciate getting insight from those who have been around a lot longer than me, whether I agree or not.



Back when we had a 2 week season and the limit was 1 buck only, there were some who broke the law. When the limit was changed to 1 buck and on designated doe days you could kill 1 doe, people broke the law. When it went to 2 bucks and also 1 doe on doe days, people broke the law. When it went to 2 bucks and 3 does on doe days, people still broke the law. You get my point?

It doesn`t matter what you do, or how you set up a taggin` system, or if there are 5 million deer in this state, or there are only 5, people are still gonna be people, and some are gonna do as the see fit and the only way to stop that is to either assign each one his own personal warden to watch his every move, or put him in the electric chair when he is caught. Outlaws will be outlaws. No need to give yourself ulcers worryin` about things beyond your control. It won`t help a bit.
 

RipperIII

Senior Member
With ratios like that, we would we better off to allow people to kill more bucks than does. I like to let em grow so I never thought I would be saying this, but Id rather see the doe tags lowered and the "any-sized" buck tags increased.
We all know this but; you take several bucks out of a heard and other buck will pick up the slack, a doe lost is a fawn lost...


I didn't mean to imply that this was an accurate ratio, but this was my observation.
 

HucK Finn

Senior Member
I didn't mean to imply that this was an accurate ratio, but this was my observation.

Ripper, I agree with your ratio. I have noticed the same thing as well as other that I talk to.
 

C.Killmaster

Georgia Deer Biologist
I would love some assistance with this. Where can I get some additional info on this?

In the front of the hunting regulations there's a list of phone numbers for regional game management offices. Find the appropriate office for the county your hunting property is located in and call and ask to speak with the biologist for that county. Just tell them you would like deer management assistance and would like to set up an appointment for a site visit to your hunting land. The biologist can set you up on a data collection program so they have the information they need to help you determine harvest goals each year. If you do your part and collect the data, they can give you a great deal of information about what's going on with your property and give you specific harvest recommendations every year based on what you would like to accomplish.
 

NG ALUM

Banned
And I believe you, and I also believe there are many others like you who regulate themselves. This board is full of good folks who have the best interest of the deer herd in mind. We just disagree on what that involves.




I tried to be very clear ealier in this thread that I was not questioning anybody's intentions or education. I believe the folks at WRD have good intentions and know TONS more than I do about this stuff. I guess the best way to put it is that I do not trust hunters to "do the right thing" as much as they do. This could be because I was raised in a hunting environment where game law violations were common, deer were shot just because they were deer, and folks were not embarassed to admit to killing over their limit (of bucks and does back then). I knew several road hunters, and one fella who would shoot them under a street light. So, for me at least, it is difficult to accept the goodness of men as the primary regulator of our deer herd.

My hunting experience began in the late 80's. So my perspective is based on that time frame. In those 20+ years, I would say the last 5+ have been the worst from a numbers perspective. That's all. Just my input.

Thanks for your perspective. I do appreciate getting insight from those who have been around a lot longer than me, whether I agree or not.

Sorry to chime in so late but one thing I would like to express that I think may help you understand this ...

Statictics is in fact the very best way to manage a deer herd. When using a computer model based off of a properly formed statistical equation it accounts for every variable known to man. i.e. number of poached deer, number of deer lost by predation, number of deer lost to natural causes, number of deer lost to human encroachment, etc..This information is not gathered from each hunter but rather a sample size (x) from hunters in many different regions of the state and the combination of many small sample sizes gives a very accurate look into the larger picture. By taking sample sizes from different areas you are also taking into accout for other variables without realizing it such as human population of those areas, location specific causes. etc.

This in return gives DNR a very accurate reading of the State of Georgia as a whole. They do not try and manage it county by county as that is not applicable for this need.

If you do live in an area with a high concerntration of local location specific causes of population decimation then that is unfortunate for you. However if you travel an hour up the road you may find more deer than you can imagine.

The management of the overall Georgia deer herd is the goal of Georgia's DNR not of your hunting lease. If people around you take the limit each year it could easily lower your local deer herd. However that limit is based on a state wide target size herd. It takes people killing the full limit and lowering local populations, meanwhile otheres are not shooting any leaving dense populations in some areas to get DNR to it's overall goal of (x) population. I'm sorry you hunt an area that maintians a lower population due to the legal limits being fulfilled but it has to happen somewhere.

The statistical equation is as follows when using multiple variables if you would like to play around with it some, if I remember it correctly....

y/z= B +B x +B x^2+B x^3...etc...+n
0 1 2 3
It would be much more detailed than that for such a matter but thats the basic.

Also,
like you I have been hunting since the 80's and have seen a great increase in deer everyyear since then in south GA.
 

NG ALUM

Banned
the 0123 under the equation should be located under the "B" creating a "base" the keyboard won't put them in the right spot...
 

JB0704

The Original JB
Also,
like you I have been hunting since the 80's and have seen a great increase in deer everyyear since then in south GA.

Thanks for the stats info. I think there is a line here between those who have plenty of deer and those who don't. The only thing that is frustrating is the idea that the "have nots" are not good hunters, have not been responsible hunters, or have little perspective. Across this argument is a wide range of experience, ability, and location. Perhaps there is logic to be found in both? Certainly facts can be used in both directions.

As far as the approach the state takes to manage on a state wide level, not a local level, I do believe other states handle it in a much more local way, which seems to work out fine for them as well (that is just based on what I hear, I am sure there are two sides to that as well).

The only thing I can't get beyond is the responsibility given to hunters in this arrangement to "do the right thing," as well as the disregard for the small lease holder who is more vulnerable to irresponsible hunters than the large lease holder, who has a larger plot of land to manage. Here is an example:

I could have a 100 acre lease next to 3 other 100 acre leases with good intentions. 400 acres of well managed land there. But if any of these 4 leases are next to some goober on another 100 acre lease who shoots every deer that walks by, then all 5 leases lose. That is 500 acres, and if I remember the numbers correctly, less than 8 does should be taken to maintain the herd. Lets say the first 4 shoot one doe a piece, and the fifth guy shoots 5 (plenty of folks out there shoot 5 does every year, just using realistic numbers), well, the deer herd is going downhill. It's hard enough for folks to manage their own lease let alone everybody else's.

Aside from those two issues, I agree on all other points.
 
Top