Any commercial plumbers in the house?

MonroeTaco · Feb 24, 2010

I'm trying to find any regs or codes on what temperature the water heater should be set to for a commercial kitchen. I've always been told 140-160, but I have a health inspector telling me that it's too hot for our "low-temp" dishmachine, even though the manufacturer (ECOLAB) says a minimum of 140 supply to the machine. Anybody know? Kinda need some literature by tomorrow if anyone can help. Thanks.

Twenty five ought six · Feb 24, 2010

I'm not a plumber but I know a little about the health codes for commercial restaurants, and 140 is the minimum.

You are running into a usual situation of the health inspector relying on his "understanding" of the regs. The truth is that in a lot of smaller counties, the so called health inspectors spend a lot more time inspecting septic tank installations than kitchens.

What's worked for me is the reverse of you wanting to have literature --make the health inspector show it to you in the regs. If he can't point it out chapter and verse, it doesn't exist. Trust me, I've been through it line by line, and it's all right there, or it's not.

Frankly don't understand how water can be "too hot" for a dishwasher. Have never heard of such a thing, not having water hot enough is a common complaint-- a lot of establishments have to put booster heaters on the DW.

MonroeTaco · Feb 25, 2010

Thats exactly what I told her. She claims that because it's a "low temp" machine, it uses chemical to sanitize during rinse, and not hot water, and claims the hot water (which is being boosted to 160 during rinse by the machine) is diluting the chemical, which by the PH test strips it is not. The manufacturer clearly states on the machine that it requires 140 supply and the rinse is to be NO LESS THAN 120. I explained the issue with the water heater temp settings along with the risk of Legionella in the system, but she refuses to be wrong, thats why I'm trying to locate some type of regs to prove my case. Love inspectors.

leo · Feb 25, 2010

MonroeTaco said:
Thats exactly what I told her. She claims that because it's a "low temp" machine, it uses chemical to sanitize during rinse, and not hot water, and claims the hot water (which is being boosted to 160 during rinse by the machine) is diluting the chemical, which by the PH test strips it is not. The manufacturer clearly states on the machine that it requires 140 supply and the rinse is to be NO LESS THAN 120. I explained the issue with the water heater temp settings along with the risk of Legionella in the system, but she refuses to be wong, thats why I'm trying to locate some type of regs to prove my case. Love inspetors.

J .... Maybe contacting the Mfg of the dish machine to get their Specs and their opinion of the inspectors claims (in writing if possible) might convince the inspector ...

Where is bud when you need him :whip:

MonroeTaco · Feb 25, 2010

leo said:
J .... Maybe contacting the Mfg of the dish machine to get their Specs and their opinion of the inspectors claims (in writing if possible) might convince the inspector ...

Where is bud when you need him

Wish Bud was here right now. I even had 2 reps from ECOLAB there trying to explain to her, but she pulled out the "book" (Medicare Survey)that says a low temp machine should have wash water at 120. Thats the only "code" we can find, so I was forced to turn down my water heater to 120. :banginghe

Doc_5729 · Feb 25, 2010

MonroeTaco said:
Thats exactly what I told her. She claims that because it's a "low temp" machine, it uses chemical to sanitize during rinse, and not hot water, and claims the hot water (which is being boosted to 160 during rinse by the machine) is diluting the chemical, which by the PH test strips it is not. The manufacturer clearly states on the machine that it requires 140 supply and the rinse is to be NO LESS THAN 120. I explained the issue with the water heater temp settings along with the risk of Legionella in the system, but she refuses to be wong, thats why I'm trying to locate some type of regs to prove my case. Love inspetors.

In the inspections world the manufacturers requirements over ride and supercede code in the case of a conflict between the code and a manufactures installation/operation requirements.

The reason is, the equipment has an engineering design certification and is underwritten by Underwriters Laboratories (UL) or some other certified testing agency.

The Inspector DOES NOT have the authority or qualifications to over rule either of those certification's.

The "Labeling" is clearly printed and in place for that reason. The manufacturers installation/operation manual will also back it up.

Furthermore, the equipment also has built in control systems which limit the water temperature on the rinse cycle. Much like a clothes washer.

The test strips show the equipment IS operating and functioning properly.

MonroeTaco · Feb 25, 2010

That's my understanding also, but this woman is very bullheaded, and she's the head inspector. That's why I'm trying to find some type of "official" documentation to show her she is wrong. Otherwise she will not leave it be. The machine is certified through NSF- which is way bigger than a local health inspector.

Doc_5729 · Feb 25, 2010

MonroeTaco said:
That's my understanding also, but this woman is very bullheaded, and she's the head inspector. That's why I'm trying to find some type of "official" documentation to show her she is wrong. Otherwise she will not leave it be. The machine is certified through NSF- which is way bigger than a local health inspector.

Do you have the manual for the dishwasher? And if so, what does it recommend as the temp range for the hot water?

That would be the "official documentation" whether she likes it or not.

Now the other question is, how far do you want to push this?

There's a State representative that has introduced a bill that addresses issues such as this between restaurant owners and inspectors over stepping their bounds.

I'm sure he would be very interested in talking with you right about now.

Seems this gal could use a lesson or two or a refresher course in code enforcement and what she can and can not require.

Twenty five ought six · Feb 25, 2010

Here you go, straight from the 100% official, Georgia State Department Of Human Resources Regulations (head agency for the local health department).

(e) Warewashing Machines, Manufacturers' Operating Instructions.
1. A warewashing machine and its auxiliary components shall be operated in
accordance with the machine's data plate and other manufacturer's instructions.
2. A warewashing machine's conveyor speed or automatic cycle times shall be
maintained accurately, timed in accordance with the manufacturer's specifications

Georgia Rules and Regulations, Dept. of Human Resources: Public Health: Food Service, 290-5-14-.05(6)(e)(1)

BTW in legalese "shall" means that it MUST be done that way -- no leeway for "interpretation."

2. The temperature of the wash solution in spray-type warewashers that use chemicals
to sanitize may not be less than 120ºF (49ºC).

Georgia Rules and Regulations, Dept. of Human Resources: Public Health: Food Service, 290-5-14-.05(6)(j)(2)

There is no maximum temp.

You can print out all 23 pages and have your very own copy.
http://rules.sos.state.ga.us/docs/290/5/14/05.pdf

NOTE -- These are the state regulations, and some local can't change them because she "thinks" she knows something.

Doc_5729 · Feb 25, 2010

Twenty five ought six said:
BTW in legalese "shall" means that it MUST be done that way -- no leeway for "interpretation."

Great post 06.

The FIRST thing inspectors are taught in the PRE-exam certification classes is the word "SHALL" is mandatory. Even she should know that.

MonroeTaco · Feb 25, 2010

Thanks 25-06. Thats exactly what I needed. I'm gonna go knock her out!!!

boneboy96 · Feb 25, 2010

let us know how this turns out...I'm curious!

MonroeTaco · Feb 26, 2010

Well, after showing her the Public Health regs, FDA regs, recommendations from the American Society of Plumbing Engineers and the CDC (legionella prevention), and an email from the NSF; she still claimed she was right, and said she would check with her supervisor. I told her that until she provided documentation that superceded what I had , the water temps would be raised back up to 140 as required by my official documentation and that I would keep it available for when she or her supervisor returns for the next inspection. She did pass us...no deficiencies. :cheers:

Appreciate the help guys.

MonroeTaco · Feb 26, 2010

It just amazes me what you have to do to prove to someone that they are wrong.

Buck75 · Feb 26, 2010

water heater

I think most commercial dw run on 180 degree water
they have a booster heater mounted near the dish washer that is how you get the 180 d water

MonroeTaco · Feb 27, 2010

Buck75 said:
I think most commercial dw run on 180 degree water
they have a booster heater mounted near the dish washer that is how you get the 180 d water

That's for high temp machines that use hot water (180) for sanitizing. We have a low temp machine- it requires NO LESS THAN 120 for the rinse because it uses chlorine bleach to sanitize, yet it requires 140 inlet water temp for the wash cycle.

buckstone0505 · Feb 27, 2010

You need to talk to her supervisers about how this played out, whether she passed it or not.

MonroeTaco · Feb 27, 2010

Oh, I intend to. She even had our Administrator convinced that she was right, therefore the only reason I temporarily turned down the temps as requested by my boss. I think she will start listening to me from now on.

JOETOM · Mar 19, 2010

140 is the min. Water temp for food service kitchens

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