Converting the dying

Spineyman

Spineyman

Senior Member
atlashunter said:
I understand the concern that a loved one might get sent to the hot place if they haven't crossed the right T's and dotted the right I's in this life. If someone really believes that then of course they would want to help. What I can't wrap my mind around is why the believer can't step back from that situation and ask the question "Does my loved one really deserve to be cast in an eternal fire?". Never seems to cross their mind that anyone who might do that to their loved one is unworthy of their love and admiration.
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Here is the crux of the matter. God is so Holy that He cannot look on sin. He clearly stated the wages of sin is death. That is not only physical death but also spiritual death as well. Which means separation form God. The only way back to a right relationship with your Creator, the Only True God is through the mediation of His Son whom He sent to be sin so that we may know life. So in answering you the answer is yes we all deserve to die, but God has in His Mercy provided a way out, and there is only one way. That is through the Blood of Jesus Christ.
 
Israel

Israel

BANNED
NCHillbilly said:
A thing being what it is does not make it incapable of being compared to other things that are what they are?

Humans and liver flukes have their similarities, but they are also different.
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We are what we are. Better than some critters on this floating ball, worse than others.
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Did I misinterpret the comparison of "better/worse"? If so...and you only meant distinction of kind, then I stand corrected. Might you see how a better/worse stance includes a judgment beyond mere distinction of kind?
 
atlashunter

atlashunter

Senior Member
Spineyman said:
Here is the crux of the matter. God is so Holy that He cannot look on sin. He clearly stated the wages of sin is death. That is not only physical death but also spiritual death as well. Which means separation form God. The only way back to a right relationship with your Creator, the Only True God is through the mediation of His Son whom He sent to be sin so that we may know life. So in answering you the answer is yes we all deserve to die, but God has in His Mercy provided a way out, and there is only one way. That is through the Blood of Jesus Christ.
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A god so holy he cannot look on sin yet knowingly created all the conditions for it to be. A god that declares people evil and then intentionally waits for them to become more evil so that he can destroy them. A god that hardens the hearts of men so that he has the pretense to kill the first born of an entire nation. Sorry but your claims simply don't add up.
 
Israel

Israel

BANNED
atlashunter said:
Oh look! Your deity happens to be among the discarded. Along with a great many other gods. Yahweh could be more yet falls short. To be expected I suppose considering his maker.
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You do know I was speaking of the comparison men make among themselves? Neither did the original context imply an inclusion of any but man. But you have seen fit to turn it to your purpose, which is of course, something you are capable of doing.

I think you're swinging about as high as your arms can reach, being as specific it seems as you can, in mention of "name"...not simply finding fault in god as concept, but that very one. Of course you must. Above all He must appear as offense to you. Precisely because He is...above all...and there's a thing that just cannot bear being found to be not god over all.
 
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atlashunter

atlashunter

Senior Member
Israel said:
You do know I was speaking of the comparison men make among themselves? Neither did the original context imply any inclusion of any but man. But you have seen fit to turn it to your purpose, which is of course, something you are capable of doing.

I think you're swinging about as high as your arms can reach, being as specific it seems as you can, in mention of "name"...not simply finding fault in god as concept, but that very one. Of course you must. Above all He must appear as offense to you. Precisely because He is...above all...and there's a thing that just cannot bear being found to be not god over all.
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He happens to be the most popular one in our culture and yeah the suck is pretty strong with him. The suck is stronger for the Muslim version of this god if that makes you feel any better. It's easier to find fault in particular gods when inconsistent and dubious claims are made for those gods than would apply to a generic god concept.
 
B

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Israel said:
What the Hebrews learned they learned through many painful lessons...if any learned at all. I am convinced some did. One may not like what they read, may not agree, may not believe...but I do find one thing, what is called the OT is replete with stories of a people "telling on themselves" through the prophets.

Who can read and miss the warnings? Who can read and miss the recorded missteps contained? Who can read and miss (as others have said) the "warts and all" revelations? Stories of a people chosen, who in that state took it to themselves to think themselves now "hot stuff", moved by a headiness that led them astray time after time, yet thinking themselves immune to the righteousness of the God they proclaimed. And finding themselves, time after time as they themselves the ones rebuked for disobedience and pride, landing in serious hot water. Captivities, humiliating defeats, dread judgments for things not hidden, but written; adulteries, murders, deceits, presumptions and craven lusts in greed for power. Not hidden, not spun as some history of a people so noble and exemplary in their manner and pursuits as to make the world blush in shame. Plainly...very much in some ways, in almost all ways, as the world at large.

But the story/stories, almost compellingly honest to a self admitted embarrassment (and as such I believe merit consideration on that basis alone) also have the rebukes and chastenings plainly contained. Warnings. Warnings issued from prophets in a call to justice, against dealing falsely, against a people so swollen in pride at their "own chosenness" as to disregard the commands of the very One whom they claim "made them special" by His choosing. One can disagree with the claims, disagree with the instructions given, disagree with the commands...but I would find it hard to disagree that these things are found...a people preserving a history replete with all their own earned humiliations. In that, by itself, something speaks.

Paul has said (that apostle) these things happened that a people may be warned. Admonished. Be instructed. Learn. That God is not a talisman to be carried, not a rabbit's foot for possession, but Himself, possessor. The claim of "knowing Him" or "having Him" is not to the end of a prideful boast of immunity, nor to a capriciousness of will as though "this God" who made the ear is deaf, who made the eye, is blind. It is both, and always, the blessing of knowing, with the stern warning of not departing from Him who has given the knowing. Too stern? Unnecessarily harsh? Not if one learns. If one learns of a proclivity to be swollen in pride, a thing never far from any, never too distant a temptation as to be "now" easily disregarded.
One can go through those pages for a plain instruction in result.

Jesus appeared after a long silence. "The" people now under the boot of the most formidable, entrenched, and far reaching worldly power the world had ever seen. It is said it was in the "fullness of time" He appeared, in this protracted silence toward the "people of God" in now misery of occupation, misery of of what probably seemed to them the most willful, and capricious exercise of such power over them, that perhaps they were "ripe" for a hearing...finally, through that suffering ready to acknowledge, "God is the Lord", and there is no escaping His righteous judgment...for any...even "His own".

Yes, I see a growth. A growth in mankind, and a mankind chosen. Daddy is "the Dad" (with whatever attendant understanding of because) as in "Because I am the Dad".
Finally understood in some measure, by at least some, now made ready to hear more. His unquestionable authority is not needing to be explained, (as never it was)...but a people called, and even made for excursions against it...have shown the result. It is a full grown son sent as though saying to those "who would/could hear"..."now that that matter is is finally understood, there is no God but God...hear all of His will for man"

I see what may appear obvious objection. "Why those people for example?" "Why that grouping for exposition" "Why that kind of plan...at all?" And I likewise understand that for any who cannot "see themselves" in that group, of "those kind of people" who could take a truth and depart so far from it as to shame themselves, this probably means little or nothing. But for some of us we identify, we see how we have made of our lives an occupation of strong and brutal forces, in likewise measure now enlightened to the truth..."we can blame no one...but ourselves"...we have deceived ourselves in our own pride. Yes, some of us are born to cry out for deliverance from those things we have "rightly earned".


And to this end, and for us, Jesus Christ appears...in the fullness of time. Our fight against authority, The Authority, is both revealed as it is, our own rebelliousness...and the great gift given to help us lay down our arms against Him. By lifting them empty, to Him.

We do not wonder why men do not see their judgment coming...for we surely did not. We ourselves were all so "very special to ourselves" in likewise manner thinking that all we saw "happening to others" was surely not for us. But such things were all so precisely arranged for us, that we might even think so, and there discover our own pride...and then, when its dreadful bonds revealed in terrible consequences too great to bear, we might cry out. And crying out is as great a gift given that those who have, have learned not to despise it.
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The OT (and NT) are full of stories of events that have been proven to have never happened at all.
They are full of events that cannot be proved to have ever happened.
Whats left is not much to have faith in.
 
B

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Spotlite said:
But most of the time the non believer says that he doesn’t have to disprove God, the believer has to prove him. Is there evidence that disproves God?


Just a question - are you two absolutely 100% positive that God doesn’t exist?

This is not an argumentative question, just curious if you’re absolutely positive or if you found evidence, you’d believe.
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The same evidence that You use to disprove any and all other gods is good enough for me.


I am not 100% sure of much of anything let alone the existence of a being that is beyond my capability to understand. But, I am not going to pick one god out of the tens of thousands of gods JUST to somehow make myself feel good and hope that I picked the right one.
 
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B

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Spotlite said:
So if my disbelief can’t disprove another god, how does yours disprove any of of them?
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My disbelief is based off of lack of evidence. My disbelief is the result of whether it is more likely or not a god exists based off of evidence.
A sunrise is not evidence.
A feeling is not evidence.
A man written book that was done by mostly anonymous authors over thousands of years and its contents decided upon by councils is not evidence.
An unexplained experience is not evidence.

If any of those were evidence of a god that is to be worshiped then there are many gods and they all should be worshiped.

If there exists such a thing that is responsible for creating creation I am convinced that no major or minor religion has gotten their version correct. Especially if such a being wants itself known to its potential followers.
If in fact a god exists I am not capable of understanding it's complexity. If in fact it exists and I am supposed to know of it, it should be capable of contacting me in a way (that only such a being could) that makes it crystal clear and unique to me.

I am open to such contact 24/7.
A god would already know that.
If such a being wants me to know it, it will contact me. If such a being could care less if I know of it, it won't contact me.

Until then I have to go with what I am able to observe and educate myself about.
 
B

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Spotlite said:
So if my disbelief can’t disprove another god, how does yours disprove any of of them?
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And in a sense your disbelief has disproved all of those other gods. You have seen enough evidence, or better yet LACK of evidence, that has you positive that those gods just do not exist and the people who say that those gods exists are mistaken and their evidence is not really evidence that convinces you.
I go one god further.
 
Spotlite

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
bullethead said:
And in a sense your disbelief has disproved all of those other gods. You have seen enough evidence, or better yet LACK of evidence, that has you positive that those gods just do not exist and the people who say that those gods exists are mistaken and their evidence is not really evidence that convinces you.
I go one god further.
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I follow you now.
 
atlashunter

atlashunter

Senior Member
Spotlite said:
So if my disbelief can’t disprove another god, how does yours disprove any of of them?
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If there is equal evidence (or lack of evidence) in the existence of gods which you reject then why should anyone give more credence to your god?
 
Israel

Israel

BANNED
Have you ever had a friend tell you something so painfully deep about yourself that you did not want to believe it, and that at that time appeared to you as a betrayal of sorts, a hurtful rejection from which you did not believe you could recover?

Yet, you know it's true?
 
B

bullethead

Of the hard cast variety
Israel said:
Have you ever had a friend tell you something so painfully deep about yourself that you did not want to believe it, and that at that time appeared to you as a betrayal of sorts, a hurtful rejection from which you did not believe you could recover?

Yet, you know it's true?
Click to expand...

You'll get over it.
We tell you these things because we care.
 
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PopPop

PopPop

Gone But Not Forgotten
Here is my take.
We are part of a reality that we can not measure, define nor map. To state with any level of certainty that we know how or when or why it came to be is the absolute height of arrogance.
The only thing we know is that we don't know and probably never will.
That leaves us only with what we believe. Your belief is no more rational nor relevant than mine, it is not superior, does not demonstrate any heightened awareness and could be simply a collection of chemicals in our own brain.
Now, I do believe what I believe, with a passion. I do not believe that your different belief becomes superior or inferior based on the differences in our passion. And those differences in passion do not become reason.
Here's the kicker, I am comfortable with you believing whatever you want. But when you tell me you Know, I ain't buying it, not even on double coupon tuesdays blue light special.
I pray to Jesus for peace on Earth and Goodwill to men.
 
atlashunter

atlashunter

Senior Member
PopPop said:
Here is my take.
We are part of a reality that we can not measure, define nor map. To state with any level of certainty that we know how or when or why it came to be is the absolute height of arrogance.
The only thing we know is that we don't know and probably never will.
That leaves us only with what we believe. Your belief is no more rational nor relevant than mine, it is not superior, does not demonstrate any heightened awareness and could be simply a collection of chemicals in our own brain.
Now, I do believe what I believe, with a passion. I do not believe that your different belief becomes superior or inferior based on the differences in our passion. And those differences in passion do not become reason.
Here's the kicker, I am comfortable with you believing whatever you want. But when you tell me you Know, I ain't buying it, not even on double coupon tuesdays blue light special.
I pray to Jesus for peace on Earth and Goodwill to men.
Click to expand...

Good speech. Try that one in a church some time.
 
WaltL1

WaltL1

Senior Member
Israel

Israel

BANNED
Thanks for that Walt. It seems a kind thing to be retained somewhere in the thoughts of another, and kinder yet to have it mentioned.

As I have taken what I hope will remain a constant stance in its diffusion throughout my being to a consistency, this helps a great deal. My stance is simple...all that the Lord has done He has done in favor to me, and for me.

He is beyond expecting anything "from" me in the sense that "I might come up with something to offer Him in return". That alone almost sounds heretical, I know...but to touch what you said (and was briefly discussed as to omniscience)...it becomes laughable for me to think (as a man, barely knowing himself before the One who knows me completely) that I might find something he hasn't seen, doesn't know of me, to present. The impetus born of a gratitude may be there to think one might try, and I am coming to see it is that precisely...a gratitude, that the Lord enjoys. Having little to do with what one may have erroneously thought one would find or could fulfill in a "return". To be grateful.

And then I begin to see, perhaps understand...even in more particular what I claimed as stance...that is, all having been done as gift. Gratitude! What a wonderful thing! I can be made to be grateful! The joy of it far outshines the obvious relegations inherent in so being...and those particularly are easily seen as the misadventures pursued by one moved by a sense of lack. (Contentment has within itself much to the avoidance of many griefs)

I am poor in translation. What may yet remain in any form...no matter how small and fading of regret...I see clearly have all been owed to a thing in their nativity...my striving to, in whatever form...be more than I see myself to be. Because I was operating from that place of dissatisfaction...either with estate, in comparisons, and the like. But gratitude! It more than amply reveals places of previous misstep to avoid...it is really O! so very pleasant! To know I am enough, "have" enough, can never make myself more in answer to One who holds all (what do you get for the Being who not only has everything...but is the Everything?) What can one give to add to Him? (Forgive the gender pronoun if need be)

It has taken decades, but I am not ashamed...any light...even if seen seemingly late is never too late. I think fathers begin to get this, how their joy is best fulfilled in their children, their little ones. How much greater to watch the child's wonder when it lands a 4" blue gill than to put one's own name in a record book with a Blue Marlin. That kind of thing. I believe Jesus referenced that when He said "These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full." One rejoicing...in the joy of another.


Yes Walt, thank you. It is good to be thought of, to know, in whatever part...there's a part of you residing in another.

You are often with me, too, in thoughts. And prayer.

Yeah, you help me understand "I have all, and am full".
 
ambush80

ambush80

Senior Member
PopPop said:
Here is my take.
We are part of a reality that we can not measure, define nor map. To state with any level of certainty that we know how or when or why it came to be is the absolute height of arrogance.
The only thing we know is that we don't know and probably never will.
That leaves us only with what we believe. Your belief is no more rational nor relevant than mine, it is not superior, does not demonstrate any heightened awareness and could be simply a collection of chemicals in our own brain.
Now, I do believe what I believe, with a passion. I do not believe that your different belief becomes superior or inferior based on the differences in our passion. And those differences in passion do not become reason.
Here's the kicker, I am comfortable with you believing whatever you want. But when you tell me you Know, I ain't buying it, not even on double coupon tuesdays blue light special.
I pray to Jesus for peace on Earth and Goodwill to men.
Click to expand...

There are different kinds of knowledge. There's the kind that appears to be universal like math. Then there's the kind that's based on math but isn't completely provable like physics, and then there's purely anecdotal knowledge like when someone says "I felt it" or "I heard it" or "I saw it" with no corroboration of witnesses or physical evidence.

"I saw what I saw" will probably only be meaningful to people who trust you very deeply and even then if what you claim to have seen seems extraordinary or supernatural they might not believe you and I think that's fair. I haven't had an extraordinary or supernatural experiences that I'm absolutely convinced were true. Any experiences that I've had that came close to that could be explained by natural causes.
 
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