Converting the dying

WaltL1

Senior Member
Here is my take.
We are part of a reality that we can not measure, define nor map. To state with any level of certainty that we know how or when or why it came to be is the absolute height of arrogance.
The only thing we know is that we don't know and probably never will.
That leaves us only with what we believe. Your belief is no more rational nor relevant than mine, it is not superior, does not demonstrate any heightened awareness and could be simply a collection of chemicals in our own brain.
Now, I do believe what I believe, with a passion. I do not believe that your different belief becomes superior or inferior based on the differences in our passion. And those differences in passion do not become reason.
Here's the kicker, I am comfortable with you believing whatever you want. But when you tell me you Know, I ain't buying it, not even on double coupon tuesdays blue light special.
I pray to Jesus for peace on Earth and Goodwill to men.
I'm with you in spirit but just a comment -
I think there is a place between here -
The only thing we know is that we don't know and probably never will.
and here -
That leaves us only with what we believe.
- It acknowledges the "we don't know".
- ** It accounts for "what we do know".
- And that is the basis for what we do/don't believe
And in broad terms, is where we as A/As sit and argue/debate from. And it does, in reality, impact this due to the definition of "rational" -
Your belief is no more rational

I pray to Jesus for peace on Earth and Goodwill to men.
Can't argue with that :bounce:
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
It has always bothered me that Christians accuse God of something so brutal, that he would commit something he created to eternal agony. Eternally, not just one life span but suffer forever and ever. And where would be his cut off line for age? Babies, teen.... We have determined that our judicial system considers 18 of age as an adult thus suffering the full wrath of the law. How about God? Does he throw an 8 year old in he11 because they did not accept him at bible school and then got killed that year in a car accident? Do you say no? Well what age then to you think God has determined to do this horrible thing? Since he created man, is he then not responsible for for our lack of trust/belief in him. Would it not be his fault because he has not convinced all? And just think about it, how many souls are in agony now, suffering in he11 right now? How many of your family members are there now, in agony. Shameful that Christianity loves this concept. It should make you sick to your stomach. Mankind should be trying to find a way to overcome this god. Would our country not work to destroy a metorite that was headed toward earth? Or a ruthless leader? Disgusting that Christianity has accused God of such a thing. And to present a belief as if believe or else this. This concept and many others in the bible are accepted because everyone wants to take a book and believe every word.... although it's been tampered with. This concept of he11 is built around 2 basic wrongs. The story of the rich man and Lazurus is a parable that has assisted in the wrong interpretations of many other verses. All the NT verses that have the same topic where translated as a fire that consumes, not burns forever..... except those regarding the fallen angels. There is a real he11 for them because something has to be done with them because they are eternal beings. We are not eternal beings unless born again of the spirit as was Jesus. Christians actually love the concept of he11. They lose no sleep over the socalled reality of it. They have no remorse that their God would do such a thing. And yet, even though proving the he11 concept as wrong takes very little bible study, looking at the words used, very little research, being the easiest false bible concept to prove wrong...... funny how not one of them will say to themselves, I will check into this to see if this has any merit. They will not research it, they might throw out 1 verses as if theology builds from one verses. They will move on as if they almost would hate to discover that they are wrong. Do they enjoy this concept that much.... or are they guided to dismiss it? I say it would be most important to check into it because of the magnitude of accusing a just God of something so unjust
 

ambush80

Senior Member
I'm with you in spirit but just a comment -
I think there is a place between here -

and here -

- It acknowledges the "we don't know".
- ** It accounts for "what we do know".
- And that is the basis for what we do/don't believe
And in broad terms, is where we as A/As sit and argue/debate from. And it does, in reality, impact this due to the definition of "rational" -




Can't argue with that :bounce:

Once you assume God then everything is attributable to Him and impossible to disprove that He did it. That guy that used to come on here named Lowjack said his congregation rebuked a hurricane once. I wasn't there but I imagine they were in the path of a hurricane, they prayed and the hurricane turned. To them it was enough proof that their rebuke worked. How did they know it was God or even their God? Strangely, as is often brought up here, God never regrows a lost limb that's prayed for. What's that prove to a believer?

There are way to use ones ability to reason that seem better suited and more in line with the natural world.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
It has always bothered me that Christians accuse God of something so brutal, that he would commit something he created to eternal agony. Eternally, not just one life span but suffer forever and ever. And where would be his cut off line for age? Babies, teen.... We have determined that our judicial system considers 18 of age as an adult thus suffering the full wrath of the law. How about God? Does he throw an 8 year old in he11 because they did not accept him at bible school and then got killed that year in a car accident? Do you say no? Well what age then to you think God has determined to do this horrible thing? Since he created man, is he then not responsible for for our lack of trust/belief in him. Would it not be his fault because he has not convinced all? And just think about it, how many souls are in agony now, suffering in he11 right now? How many of your family members are there now, in agony. Shameful that Christianity loves this concept. It should make you sick to your stomach. Mankind should be trying to find a way to overcome this god. Would our country not work to destroy a metorite that was headed toward earth? Or a ruthless leader? Disgusting that Christianity has accused God of such a thing. And to present a belief as if believe or else this. This concept and many others in the bible are accepted because everyone wants to take a book and believe every word.... although it's been tampered with. This concept of he11 is built around 2 basic wrongs. The story of the rich man and Lazurus is a parable that has assisted in the wrong interpretations of many other verses. All the NT verses that have the same topic where translated as a fire that consumes, not burns forever..... except those regarding the fallen angels. There is a real he11 for them because something has to be done with them because they are eternal beings. We are not eternal beings unless born again of the spirit as was Jesus. Christians actually love the concept of he11. They lose no sleep over the socalled reality of it. They have no remorse that their God would do such a thing. And yet, even though proving the he11 concept as wrong takes very little bible study, looking at the words used, very little research, being the easiest false bible concept to prove wrong...... funny how not one of them will say to themselves, I will check into this to see if this has any merit. They will not research it, they might throw out 1 verses as if theology builds from one verses. They will move on as if they almost would hate to discover that they are wrong. Do they enjoy this concept that much.... or are they guided to dismiss it? I say it would be most important to check into it because of the magnitude of accusing a just God of something so unjust
And we thought it was just us who found the concept somewhat troubling :bounce:
But yes, the whole "burn in he11" concept, while certainly a foundation in modern Christian belief, can certainly be strongly debated against as to "accurate Bible interpretation"/historical accuracy.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
Shameful that Christianity loves this concept. Disgusting that Christianity has accused God of such a thing. Christians actually love the concept of he11. They lose no sleep over the socalled reality of it. They have no remorse that their God would do such. Do they enjoy this concept that much.... or are they guided to dismiss it?
Im just going to assume that you don’t fully understand Christianity and leave it at that, based on the number of Christians that I know that do no such thing.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
If there is equal evidence (or lack of evidence) in the existence of gods which you reject then why should anyone give more credence to your god?
But at this point, based on your answer to my question below, you’re not able to positively disprove God or any god with evidence?
Just a question - are you two absolutely 100% positive that God doesn’t exist?
.

Not 100% but pretty close to it.
 

WaltL1

Senior Member
Originally Posted by 1gr8bldr
Shameful that Christianity loves this concept. Disgusting that Christianity has accused God of such a thing. Christians actually love the concept of he11. They lose no sleep over the socalled reality of it. They have no remorse that their God would do such. Do they enjoy this concept that much.... or are they guided to dismiss it?
Im just going to assume that you don’t fully understand Christianity and leave it at that, based on the number of Christians that I know that do no such thing.
Throwing my opinion out there :D -
I kind of think you are both right.
Do they enjoy this concept that much.... or are they guided to dismiss it?
I think neither. I think they are so psychologically comfortable that they aren't going there that its really not a place to fear, its really not a threat etc. so therefore much easier to accept without over thinking it.
based on the number of Christians that I know that do no such thing
And I would agree. The average Christian doesn't run around doing the fire and brimstone burn in he11 thing. SEE ABOVE as to why they dont.
 

PopPop

Gone But Not Forgotten
I'm with you in spirit but just a comment -
I think there is a place between here -

and here -

- It acknowledges the "we don't know".
- ** It accounts for "what we do know".
- And that is the basis for what we do/don't believe
And in broad terms, is where we as A/As sit and argue/debate from. And it does, in reality, impact this due to the definition of "rational" -



Can't argue with that :bounce:

A is indeed A, yet we live in a world where we can personally redefine A in the most absurd ways. Then there is the A that is redefined in service of an Agenda, by a consensus of people, unhappy with the original meaning of A. Knowledge has historically been proven to be a fluid state, wisdom comes from that recognition.
I personally don't struggle with A/A's having been one myself. It is only the A/A that is absolutely certain that he/ she is correct, to the point of questioning the intellect of believers, never recognizing that their own position is based on belief.
Intelligent design has been my life's work, I see it in the works of man and I see it the works of Life and this planet that supports it. I observe evolution and see intelligent design, not random mutations. It fascinates me, it humbles me. And I have seen the evolutions of A/A s. some of the finest Preachers I have ever known were reasoned, rational Atheist. I expect, if I live long enough, to see Hal running one of those big TV churches. Lol.
 

PopPop

Gone But Not Forgotten
Once you assume God then everything is attributable to Him and impossible to disprove that He did it. That guy that used to come on here named Lowjack said his congregation rebuked a hurricane once. I wasn't there but I imagine they were in the path of a hurricane, they prayed and the hurricane turned. To them it was enough proof that their rebuke worked. How did they know it was God or even their God? Strangely, as is often brought up here, God never regrows a lost limb that's prayed for. What's that prove to a believer?

There are way to use ones ability to reason that seem better suited and more in line with the natural world.

If you are praying for potatoes, you'd better have a hoe.
 

1gr8bldr

Senior Member
Im just going to assume that you don’t fully understand Christianity and leave it at that, based on the number of Christians that I know that do no such thing.
I have spent 15 years trying to deprogram myself from the teachings I was brought up on. I have read the NT over 1000 times, Even learned to read greek in an effort to see the biased translation errors. I have taken one topic...many times and read through the entire bible several times with one mindset, to see what it says about the subject. I knew the bible so well that I began to see what is in there but more important, what was not. So, I say this to verify that I have studied this topic to extreme degree so that I am confident in my conclusion. Have you or do you just accept traditional teachings? I am not looking for an answer, or to change anyone's mind, but confident no one will say, You spurred me to investigate this. And as you, I'll leave it at that. And to clarify, I'm here because I enjoy discussion. I hope I don't come off as a debater.
 

Spotlite

Resident Homesteader
Throwing my opinion out there :D -
I kind of think you are both right.

I think neither. I think they are so psychologically comfortable that they aren't going there that its really not a place to fear, its really not a threat etc. so therefore much easier to accept without over thinking it.

And I would agree. The average Christian doesn't run around doing the fire and brimstone burn in he11 thing. SEE ABOVE as to why they dont.
I could agree here.
I have spent 15 years trying to deprogram myself from the teachings I was brought up on. I have read the NT over 1000 times, Even learned to read greek in an effort to see the biased translation errors. I have taken one topic...many times and read through the entire bible several times with one mindset, to see what it says about the subject. I knew the bible so well that I began to see what is in there but more important, what was not. So, I say this to verify that I have studied this topic to extreme degree so that I am confident in my conclusion. Have you or do you just accept traditional teachings? I am not looking for an answer, or to change anyone's mind, but confident no one will say, You spurred me to investigate this. And as you, I'll leave it at that. And to clarify, I'm here because I enjoy discussion. I hope I don't come off as a debater.
And you’re not coming off in an argumentative way. No worries there. I like to discussion over debate myself.
 

Israel

BANNED
Might there be some acceptance that, regardless of whatever we may perceive of this "thing" in its dreadful descriptions, it is at least as much a thing to be avoided in some measure commensurate with the price paid to deliver men from it?

I am very much persuaded the opposite of this is true as stated, at least as regards our Lord's intent of what men should know of it:

I think they are so psychologically comfortable that they aren't going there that its really not a place to fear, its really not a threat etc. so therefore much easier to accept without over thinking it.

Not that the above statement may not be true to some extent of some. But rather that the Lord will measure to us any revelation as needed that would disabuse us of any notion that "some are just going to miss the big picnic". No, there is a something to which man may go, unbearable in the extreme...that both Jesus, and now His disciples, do not wish upon any. As surely as the Heaven of Christ is all of joy unspeakable, and where grief and regret cannot be found, there is something apart that is all not of that, where no joy is ever present.

Paul said this in testimony of his labor: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

And was not ashamed of knowing, or speaking this:
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Refusing grace has consequences to the same end a man may encounter by trying to reverse the truth. What may often be mistaken as the weakest exercise of God's nature, that is mercy and grace, is found to be the thing the very strongest can not stand against to any prevailing.


There is a falling upon the Rock, and a falling of the Rock upon.
 
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WaltL1

Senior Member
Might there be some acceptance that, regardless of whatever we may perceive of this "thing" in its dreadful descriptions, it is at least as much a thing to be avoided in some measure commensurate with the price paid to deliver men from it?

I am very much persuaded the opposite of this is true as stated, at least as regards our Lord's intent of what men should know of it:



Not that the above statement may not be true to some extent of some. But rather that the Lord will measure to us any revelation as needed that would disabuse us of any notion that "some are just going to miss the picnic". No, there is a something to which man may go, unbearable in the extreme...that both Jesus, and now His disciples, do not wish upon any.

Paul said this in testimony of his labor: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

And was not ashamed of knowing, or speaking this:
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Refusing grace has consequences to the same end a man may encounter by trying to reverse the truth. What may often be mistaken as the weakest exercise of God's nature, that is mercy and grace, is found to be the thing the very strongest can not stand against to any prevailing.
I don't know Israel. I'm not convinced :bounce:
I am very much persuaded the opposite of this is true as stated, at least as regards our Lord's intent of what men should know of it:
I'm thinking you are stating how it SHOULD be.
I think I am stating how it IS -
I think they are so psychologically comfortable that they aren't going there that its really not a place to fear, its really not a threat etc. so therefore much easier to accept without over thinking it.
Ponder this -
Which have you heard/read etc from fellow Christians a thousand times? -
1. They, them, you, those people, them over there, those kind of people, that religion...... are going to he11.
2. I am going to he11.

I think the answer to that question shows a certain level of psychological comfort.
 

Israel

BANNED
I don't doubt there are some.

I also know those sentiments/psychological projections/adjustments are both dangerous to indulge and disastrous to hold. To think one can preach a Savior who poured out His life, while casually dismissing some "others" of meriting the very thing that Savior came to save from, well, there's a dissonance there that only God can deliver...from.

Or, God forbid, leave one in.
 
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atlashunter

Senior Member
But at this point, based on your answer to my question below, you’re not able to positively disprove God or any god with evidence?

I can't positively disprove god. Nor can I disprove Poseidon, leprechauns, fairies, purple flying elephants, Valhalla, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't need to disprove them. The burden of proof lies with those making the claim those things actually exist. What I can say is that the observable evidence comports with what we would expect if god did not exist and does not comport with the claims made by the Bible about what we should expect if he does exist. So the weight of probability leans in the extreme toward this god being a myth.
 

PopPop

Gone But Not Forgotten
I can't positively disprove god. Nor can I disprove Poseidon, leprechauns, fairies, purple flying elephants, Valhalla, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't need to disprove them. The burden of proof lies with those making the claim those things actually exist. What I can say is that the observable evidence comports with what we would expect if god did not exist and does not comport with the claims made by the Bible about what we should expect if he does exist. So the weight of probability leans in the extreme toward this god being a myth.

I believe that you believe that.
 

atlashunter

Senior Member
I believe that you believe that.

If John 14:13-14 were true it would be demonstrable. Turns out it is demonstrably false. That is what I would expect if god didn't exist. The ball is in the court of the Christian to make the case for their claims.
 

red neck richie

Senior Member
I can't positively disprove god. Nor can I disprove Poseidon, leprechauns, fairies, purple flying elephants, Valhalla, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't need to disprove them. The burden of proof lies with those making the claim those things actually exist. What I can say is that the observable evidence comports with what we would expect if god did not exist and does not comport with the claims made by the Bible about what we should expect if he does exist. So the weight of probability leans in the extreme toward this god being a myth.
A burden really? Please explain. I find nothing but comfort and peace. I like the discussion and sharing my experiences and hearing yours. I don't feel burdened at all. To prove anything.
 

atlashunter

Senior Member
A burden really? Please explain. I find nothing but comfort and peace. I like the discussion and sharing my experiences and hearing yours. I don't feel burdened at all. To prove anything.

Figure of speech Richie. If you can't demonstrate your god exists then nobody should take your claims of his existence as any more credible than any other mythical claim. Your feelings are irrelevant.
 
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