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  #376  
Old 07-16-2017, 12:15 PM
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I believe we can get things backward. We think what we see in the natural is the real, and the true. In that manner what we hear of visions become something less than the real. They can , in our mind then, take on a sort of imaginary property, as though they are something less, or, at the very least, less than true substance. The rock we hold in our hand may be to us the true, the substantial...but we know this is not the end of the matter.

Faith delivers us to something else.

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The above would be all of confusion were it not true. How can such a statement be made? Indeed, apart from faith it is all nonsense to a man. "Not look at what is seen?" But "we look at what is unseen"?

Visions "of God" are always a view into what is the real, and true. Here, the temporal, which at best may serve as a pointer, a hint(if you will) at what is not seen, even in their beholding, must give way for the true.

One man may say "this is rock, this is nothing more than what I attribute to it in being" (and we may see man has been very busy in forming all sorts of attributes of definition, mass, size, compositions...has "come up" with a myriad of words for description...thinking in descriptions he has captured all the essence of rock's being) We are oh so easily given to declare the end of a thing in our definitions. Words we make up to describe the "what is", and then by implication even those words take on an immutability of finality...to us. Potassium, silicate minerals, or traces of selenium, chromium... This is all of what is...of rock! This is all there is to know "of rock!"

Faith, of course, sees quite differently.
I think I get what you mean here. The transfiguration is more real from an in Christ perspective than the talk back from my wife which I love dearly. LOL.... And sometimes her talk back can get real real in a New York minute. To see in Christ is not just a refection of the sun's radiation on objects which are picked up by the eye and processed by the brain. To see in Christ is to experience eternal life or life active as it is meant to be. It is to experience the will of God and many other things... in God. The old bromide" I was blind but now I see" does not speak of eye function, but of a transformation of the whole soul vis a vis its assessments of realities often never suspected previous.
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  #377  
Old 07-16-2017, 12:19 PM
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I think I get what you mean here. The transfiguration is more real from an in Christ perspective than the talk back from my wife which I love dearly. LOL.... And that talk back can get real real in a New York minute.
Amen!

Yes!
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  #378  
Old 07-18-2017, 05:45 AM
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I think I get what you mean here. The transfiguration is more real from an in Christ perspective than the talk back from my wife which I love dearly. LOL.... And sometimes her talk back can get real real in a New York minute. To see in Christ is not just a refection of the sun's radiation on objects which are picked up by the eye and processed by the brain. To see in Christ is to experience eternal life or life active as it is meant to be. It is to experience the will of God and many other things... in God. The old bromide" I was blind but now I see" does not speak of eye function, but of a transformation of the whole soul vis a vis its assessments of realities often never suspected previous.
Yes! And then, in and from that place...to be found sent into the world.
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  #379  
Old 07-18-2017, 08:44 AM
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Yes! And then, in and from that place...to be found sent into the world.
The derail topics of this tread still haunt me--the subject of the Transfiguration especially.

What haunt's me especially is that of a reported or believed vision of Christ before his ascension.

To my mind if the Transfiguration is a vision then it is a Christophany highly unusual.

The traditional definition of a Christophany is that it is a non-physical and therefore supernatural manifestation of Jesus.

The context of the transfiguration is that a physically present Jesus transforms into a non-physical presence to mingle with two non-physically present individuals, these are Moses and Elijah.

So this is what I see:

Jesus physically present.
Jesus' friends physically present.

Jesus non-physically present.
Elijah non-physically present.
Moses non physically present.

What I find haunting is that the Transfiguration is were two spiritual realities meet and mingle. Why is this event important that the Gospel writers would include it in their gospels? It is a theophany-christophany both "mount to mouth" or physically present and yet of an unusual and striking visual nature more common to spiritual visions of the holy...

For me the transfiguration scene is so real that the description of the disciples at the event seems to be the vision!

So some find it a vision and some a miracle, I read. It is highly uncommon as a christophany where Christ is transformed as if non-physical while He is yet physical or not with his glorified body, ( that is prior the ascension.)

Hobbs indicates that it is a vision of Christ coming.

I read today that Thomas Aquinas said that it showed the perfection of life in heaven.

I read in Wiki that the Transfiguration is said by some to be a pivot point of the gospels-- where heaven and earth meet, it is where " human nature and God meet" :


"In Christian teachings, the Transfiguration is a pivotal moment, and the setting on the mountain is presented as the point where human nature meets God: the meeting place of the temporal and the eternal, with Jesus himself as the connecting point, acting as the bridge between heaven and earth.[10] Moreover, Christians consider the Transfiguration to fulfill an Old Testament messianic prophecy that Elijah would return again after his ascension (Malachi 4:5-6).

Gardner (2015, p. 218) states... ( source Wiki)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus
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Last edited by gordon 2; 07-18-2017 at 01:18 PM.
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  #380  
Old 07-18-2017, 10:50 AM
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I'm not sure what to make of it as if it was physical or spiritual. Perhaps Jesus' first return to the spiritual realm or first return to God the Father.

Some say that the presence of Moses and Elijah represented the "Law and the Prophets", as God saying about Jesus, "listen to him."

Like the old going away and the new coming in. Just one of those mysteries man has always pondered.


Jesus physically present.
Jesus' friends physically present.

Jesus non-physically present.
Elijah non-physically present.
Moses non physically present.

This reads like Jesus and his friends were physically watching three spirits gather together. Which is believable but places physical Jesus watching spiritual Jesus as a separate entity.
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  #381  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:03 AM
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But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what God said to you: ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Of course Jesus Christ could be found in communication with all living.
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  #382  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:43 AM
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Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God. For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven.
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  #383  
Old 07-20-2017, 08:57 AM
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Jesus replied, “Your mistake is that you don’t know the Scriptures, and you don’t know the power of God. For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven.
Yet does this say they will not be married? Why would any marry or be given in marriage when the dead rise? Are the blessings which is and goes forth from the spiritual union of the two sexes and into one flesh not determined this side of the resurrection. When Peter is raised, will he be raised without his mate? ---- which bases was never pejoratively carnal but a gift from God?
"
Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD."

Can I suggest that at the resurrection it will be plainly settled beforehand from the first riser of the great event that the one who lived with many had but one mate or none at all. Like angels in this respect, man will be of fully formed integrity. The judgement will not be on it, but on the love of God in the life? Maybe...?
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Last edited by gordon 2; 07-20-2017 at 09:35 AM.
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  #384  
Old 07-20-2017, 03:49 PM
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Yet does this say they will not be married? Why would any marry or be given in marriage when the dead rise? Are the blessings which is and goes forth from the spiritual union of the two sexes and into one flesh not determined this side of the resurrection. When Peter is raised, will he be raised without his mate? ---- which bases was never pejoratively carnal but a gift from God?
"
Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD."

Can I suggest that at the resurrection it will be plainly settled beforehand from the first riser of the great event that the one who lived with many had but one mate or none at all. Like angels in this respect, man will be of fully formed integrity. The judgement will not be on it, but on the love of God in the life? Maybe...?
I don't think it's so much about marriage or not, but an example of a spiritual kingdom. The sadducee were unable to think spiritually because they were so fixated on their present physical life.

I don't know for sure though, it's just how it appears to me.
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Last edited by hobbs27; 07-20-2017 at 08:05 PM.
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