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  #26  
Old 01-28-2018, 11:04 AM
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When we read about Cain and Abel, God was talking directly to them. We do know that God talked directly to a lot of individuals in the days or yore.
It appeared to be more physical back then between God and Cain, God and Seth, etc.
Getting back to the OP, I wonder how the world forgot God? Whole groups of people not knowing God. Did they once know God but wandered away? Was there ever a time when everyone worshiped God? Maybe Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, and Seth all were believers. Eventually though the world developed non-believers.

Then one wonders why a lineage would be righteous and another evil. The line of descendants from Seth to Noah is often called righteous, in comparison to Cain's descendants who are called evil. Perhaps not all of them were if the flood was worldly since only eight made it.

Just trying to figure out who was believers and who was not from the garden to the flood. Even then God elected Noah's sons and their wives. Interesting again how election follows genealogy.
There are whole families of righteous individuals and whole families of evil individuals.

Relate this to Cain. Was his whole lineage evil? Was Seth's whole lineage righteous?
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Old 01-28-2018, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
When we read about Cain and Abel, God was talking directly to them. We do know that God talked directly to a lot of individuals in the days or yore.
It appeared to be more physical back then between God and Cain, God and Seth, etc.
Getting back to the OP, I wonder how the world forgot God? Whole groups of people not knowing God. Did they once know God but wandered away? Was there ever a time when everyone worshiped God? Maybe Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, and Seth all were believers. Eventually though the world developed non-believers.

Then one wonders why a lineage would be righteous and another evil. The line of descendants from Seth to Noah is often called righteous, in comparison to Cain's descendants who are called evil. Perhaps not all of them were if the flood was worldly since only eight made it.

Just trying to figure out who was believers and who was not from the garden to the flood. Even then God elected Noah's sons and their wives. Interesting again how election follows genealogy.
There are whole families of righteous individuals and whole families of evil individuals.

Relate this to Cain. Was his whole lineage evil? Was Seth's whole lineage righteous?
LOL, I just finished reading the book of Enoch looking for supporting info. 60 chapters. Most people don't realize that our bible is based on Enoch. Somewhere about half way, chp 30 something was very little about Abel accusing Cain. The fallen angels, he1l, the flood, the Son of man, it all comes from Enoch. It was deminished as an inspired book because it's not trinitarian
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  #28  
Old 01-28-2018, 11:29 AM
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Cain kills the righteous son. The good seed. God replaces the good seed with Seth. Seth is made in the image of his Father, Adam.
Seth had a son named Enosh.

Genesis 4:26
To Seth also a son was born, and he called his name Enosh. At that time people began to call upon the name of the Lord.

Was that really when people started to worship God? In those early times it seems a bit confusing as to how or who was saved. Who was elected for good and who was elected for evil. Who would become a descendant of Cain and who got to be in Seth's lineage.
Back to the OP. Who were the people of Nod? Even if from Adam, did they have salvation? Were any of them of the Elect?

Again we have this re-occurring theme in scripture. It starts with brothers. One is righteous and the other is evil. One is chosen and one is not. One brings forth a whole lineage of evil while another brings forth a chosen generation.
Did God forsake Nod or did Nod forsake God? How does a whole nation wander to a foreign land and loose all they once knew about God? Think about this in pre-modern times. What happened to Dad's telling sons the story?

So back then sons represented future geneologies, one evil and one chosen. Eventually we learn in scripture that it never was about chosen nations. It has always been about chosen individuals. Well that or at some point in "time" it changed from nations to individuals.

Yet later in scripture we read where everyone in the house is saved. Maybe salvation does follow the whole household like it did with Noah's family. Election does seem to follow whole families and genealogy.

I'm trying to vision indiviual salvation in a religion of nations as related to Cain and Seth.
God's religion? Was it given to the whole world with Adam? Did some wander from it? Was it just for Adam and his lineage? Seth and his lineage? Noah and his lineage? Abraham and his lineage?

Was it for the whole world but some wandered so it was given to the Jews to bring the whole world back?
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  #29  
Old 01-28-2018, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by gemcgrew View Post
Cain(natural religion, works) - "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Abel(everlasting life, Grace) - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

The dividing line of the human race.
That's the way I see it. Cain tried the "works" path to salvation.
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Old 01-28-2018, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by gemcgrew View Post
Cain(natural religion, works) - "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Abel(everlasting life, Grace) - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

The dividing line of the human race.
Quote:
Where no oxen are, the crib is clean: but much increase is by the strength of the ox. (No works, No ox. No ox no works- no increase.)

The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death. ( Cain was a man of prayer.)


A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident. ( Cain was not exactly confident.)


The king's favour is toward a wise servant: but his wrath is against him that causeth shame. ( God's curse was not on Cain, but on the individual that would kill Cain.)

I can only conclude that Cain was a man of faith. His mama brought him up right--but her flesh got the better of him.

A sound heart is the life of the flesh: but envy the rottenness of the bones.

In the fear of the Lord is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.( We are all spiritual refugees...?

That I may too well understand Cain I cannot judge as to spiritual condition. Just as I may too well understand Peter. (But that both statements are up for examination as a gross presumption may well prove the better course for any light on spiritual condition)

I know what it is to burn with envy (or at least think I do).
I do not have any doubt though, as to knowing the tarnish of such shameless boasting.

But I cannot dismiss Peter as like myself too much, (or vice versa) for now I appreciate his being made so conformable as to (in my faith) rejoice in the will of God, notwithstanding the centuries he has been assigned a place that surely includes "the story of Peter's denial". (At least among the natural hands clutching the Bible)

What I mean is; I am fully persuaded he never even considers this "why did that part have to remain included?" I am again, persuaded, his joy is "whatever it takes Lord...for men to see!". Yes, Peter helps me. Or at least someone like me. I can't but thank God that such men are given to see grace.

O Abel! O John! (John who stayed close to the Lord in His trial, even entering the High Priest's house while Peter stood in contradiction outside the gate) How can I not love these, also? Men in devotion who inspire me to seek the Lord...better men than I know of myself...who remain lights as testimony of what fire may be placed in the bosoms of brothers, by our Chiefest of Brother.

Yes Cain saw grace. Or, at least (I believe) a seeing rightly shows it was shown him. (whether he himself apprehended and continued, I do not know).

So too did Ahab! I marvel at how easily our God is touched by repentance! That has become very important to apprehend...for a man like me...whose former conversation often testifies even and up until this moment of such tortuous motives as I know I dare not trust in even what I might consider my deepest sincerity.

Only one things shines. One single thing. The rest...even of what might be considered of greatest utility to "a man like me" is dross here. I may be like all men, I may not be like any. It doesn't matter at all in the light of the only One who is like no other.

The One who came to be like us in the very midst of all that seeks to distinguish itself.


Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

I know a man who has feared getting lost in the mix. But I see a man who willingly entered into that of total faith that the One who sent Him will never lose sight of what remains true in His presence.

And so, He is.
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  #31  
Old 01-28-2018, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 1gr8bldr View Post
LOL, I just finished reading the book of Enoch looking for supporting info. 60 chapters. Most people don't realize that our bible is based on Enoch. Somewhere about half way, chp 30 something was very little about Abel accusing Cain. The fallen angels, he1l, the flood, the Son of man, it all comes from Enoch. It was deminished as an inspired book because it's not trinitarian
Enoch knew God. I wonder if Enoch walked with the Trinity. When God talked to Cain, was Cain aware of the Trinity?
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  #32  
Old 01-28-2018, 12:50 PM
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That's the way I see it. Cain tried the "works" path to salvation.
Are we, this thread, reading way more into it than the text gives. Did cain have any notion of salvation? All these post are carrying assumptions from times way beyond Cain. As I see it, Cain was not even punished for killing his brother. Poor Abel, does he feel like he was insignificant? And this after having given the good sacrifice? So good is punished and bad is rewarded????? There is no indication of works or grace.
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  #33  
Old 01-28-2018, 12:56 PM
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Enoch knew God. I wonder if Enoch walked with the Trinity. When God talked to Cain, was Cain aware of the Trinity?
LOL, not in his so called writing of Enoch. No trinity there within. However, it is in 3rd person in the opening line. meaning the writer, not Enoch, his views are not trinitarian. Kind of like one of the books about Polycarp. Polycarp's writings were not trinitarian though someone wrote a book in 3rd person about Polycarp forcing words into his mouth, claiming that in the midst of an arena where a thousand people were screaming, that he heard Polycarp cry out to a godhead of his biased opinion. Thus not at all reflective of Polycarps own beliefs. But rather an attempt to shape doctrine
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Old 01-28-2018, 01:09 PM
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If I were going to try to read into this text, the best I could justify is that in hindsight, as an example to us, [because if directed properly, Cain would have bought an acceptable sacrifice. It was apparently the first one] of blood sacrifice of the firstborn, is a sacrifice. Where as fruit was more like a payment. The bible goes on to call first fruits as worthy as a sacrifice to the temple. ?????
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  #35  
Old 01-28-2018, 01:11 PM
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Are we, this thread, reading way more into it than the text gives. Did cain have any notion of salvation? All these post are carrying assumptions from times way beyond Cain. As I see it, Cain was not even punished for killing his brother. Poor Abel, does he feel like he was insignificant? And this after having given the good sacrifice? So good is punished and bad is rewarded?????
That's what was in my head in my last few posts. Can we read about Cain, Abel, and Seth and apply salvation as it pertains to us? Does scripture allow us to do this? Is there enough in Genesis to do this?
If not Cain or Seth, then who? Who was the first to receive salvation by believing in Jesus which is the only way?
The Trinity could answer that. If you believed in God, then you believe in the Son. Did it work that way for Cain and Seth? Genesis doesn't tell us it does.
Take the world 200 years ago. Maybe a South Pacific island. Did they know God by his creation? Did they know the Son by knowing God? Is that how the Trinity works?

It appears the world was a different place before the flood. Men lived very long lives. Most didn't even have children until they were past a hundred years old and not very many at that. Noah didn't have that many children.
I don't believe Adam had that many when Cain killed Abel nor when Seth was born. Not enough for that many to be kicked out of Eden to form Nod.

Now when we look at who believed, who had faith, who didn't believe when Cain killed Abel. I don't know what the protocol was. Then you've got all these people in Nod. Did they know God? Had they already abandoned God.
Why no mention of why they got kicked out of Eden if in fact they did?

When or if there were only 5 or 6 people in Eden, at some given time, were they all children of God? Then by Noah's time none were righteous other then Noah ans his family.

Then it would all have to start over. The lineage, the genealogy. From Seth to Noah gone. We start from Noah to Abraham. Again it splits with sons. Some righteous and some evil. Some follow God and some don't. It becomes another genealogy thing. At least it's presented in scripture as genealogy.

Until the Jews were blinded to allow salvation to the Gentiles. Well it wasn't like that in Genesis. So what gives? When did salvation based on individual election start instead of being based on genealogy or lineage.

Jacob and Esau comes to mind. Again it goes back to sons. It's always about the sons until the Son came.
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  #36  
Old 01-28-2018, 01:29 PM
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If your digging continues bringing more questions, it's because youre digging in the wrong places.

Cain never had the relationship Adam once had. Adam was a son of God, but he lost that sonship when he sinned and became a servant.
Servants don't receive an inheritance from their father, so the entire generations from Adam were servants by biological lines. But that biological line would produce the last Adam.. The only begotten Son of God.

He would bring all mankind back into Sonship . Faith in Christ makes us Sons of God, enters us into the kingdom, and gives us part in the inheritance that we too have eternal life.
We know this from scripture up until Cain killed Abel? How could they in Eden know the Son? How can anyone know the Son?

I can see where you are going with the biological line. That's the whole thing with sons in the Old Testament. It's all about the lineage of the Son, the last Adam.

Back to Nod? The people in Nod? If they came from Eden, what was their offense to have also been kicked out? For God to have abandon them as well. I'm assuming they were no longer the children of God. Even if there were only 10 people there, and assuming they came from Eden, how did they get there? What made them evil?
If they didn't come from Eden, how could they be children of God? What was their criteria? What did Seth do or change concerning the others in Nod and their salvation?

If Cain never was a son of God. If he didn't have that inheritance, why was he in the Garden to begin with?
Did he loose anything when he killed Abel or did he ever have it? The people of Nod, did they ever have it or could they ever obtain it?
The South Pacific islanders? Did they ever have it or were they able to obtain it?
Gentiles as mentioned in Romans 11? How or when could they obtain it. Did something have to happen for salvation to be presented to them as revealed to Paul.
The mystery continues.
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  #37  
Old 01-28-2018, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 1gr8bldr View Post
If I were going to try to read into this text, the best I could justify is that in hindsight, as an example to us, [because if directed properly, Cain would have bought an acceptable sacrifice. It was apparently the first one] of blood sacrifice of the firstborn, is a sacrifice. Where as fruit was more like a payment. The bible goes on to call first fruits as worthy as a sacrifice to the temple. ?????
Was it an offering or a sacrifice? I'm not sure it was about the blood but it sure is when it comes to the firstborn.
Many believe it had something to do with blood. It would be hindsight and we would have to read scripture after the event to see it as some type of example presented by God about offerings or sacrifices.
There was a firstborn killed. The firstborn was replaced by God.
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Old 01-28-2018, 02:31 PM
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We know this from scripture up until Cain killed Abel? How could they in Eden know the Son? How can anyone know the Son?

I can see where you are going with the biological line. That's the whole thing with sons in the Old Testament. It's all about the lineage of the Son, the last Adam.

Back to Nod? The people in Nod? If they came from Eden, what was their offense to have also been kicked out? For God to have abandon them as well. I'm assuming they were no longer the children of God. Even if there were only 10 people there, and assuming they came from Eden, how did they get there? What made them evil?
If they didn't come from Eden, how could they be children of God? What was their criteria? What did Seth do or change concerning the others in Nod and their salvation?

If Cain never was a son of God. If he didn't have that inheritance, why was he in the Garden to begin with?
Did he loose anything when he killed Abel or did he ever have it? The people of Nod, did they ever have it or could they ever obtain it?
The South Pacific islanders? Did they ever have it or were they able to obtain it?
Gentiles as mentioned in Romans 11? How or when could they obtain it. Did something have to happen for salvation to be presented to them as revealed to Paul.
The mystery continues.
I wish sometimes you would write down all your questions and then just enter them in one at a time.. :-).

How did anyone at this time know of the Son? They were told of Him, He would come from the seed of Eve, His heel would be bruised, but He would bruise his head.

How did Job know, his redeemer liveth?

You mentioned something about Cain being in the garden... Was he? I thought Adam and Eve were cast out as a childless couple.
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Old 01-28-2018, 02:45 PM
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I don't think the people of nod came from Eden, but the people God placed in Eden may have come from nod..... There's just no way around the fact that there was other people than just Adam and Eve.
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  #40  
Old 01-28-2018, 02:49 PM
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I wish sometimes you would write down all your questions and then just enter them in one at a time.. :-).

How did anyone at this time know of the Son? They were told of Him, He would come from the seed of Eve, His heel would be bruised, but He would bruise his head.

How did Job know, his redeemer liveth?

You mentioned something about Cain being in the garden... Was he? I thought Adam and Eve were cast out as a childless couple.
My mistake, not the garden but the land of Eden. Did God tell Eve about her seed when he was talking to Satan? I'm just not sure they knew about Jesus at that time. Even if they knew Genesis 3:15.

Regardless the people of Nod had left the Land of Eden or perhaps they never were there. Maybe Cain was the only one from Eden when he got to Nod.

Eventually the world filled up with lands such as Nod. Evil people who did not know God. Maybe they never knew God. Maybe they forgot along the way.

It may have never been God's plan to bring salvation to the world through the first Adam but through the last Adam. The first Adam may have been just for the biological lineage of the last Adam.

There could have been people all over the world who didn't know Jesus as told and passed on from Adam or even Noah.
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Old 01-28-2018, 02:51 PM
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I don't think the people of nod came from Eden, but the people God placed in Eden may have come from nod..... There's just no way around the fact that there was other people than just Adam and Eve.
Agreed, that there must have been others. Because if you were the 4th born on earth, how could you even imagine others out there whom might kill you
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Old 01-28-2018, 03:15 PM
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That I may too well understand Cain I cannot judge as to spiritual condition.
Why not? Scripture is clear on the matter.
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Old 01-29-2018, 05:29 AM
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Why not? Scripture is clear on the matter.
Sorry Brother...statement was obviously less clear than intended.

That I know too well the motions that jealousy and resentments can produce, the unwelcome feelings that arise when one perceives oneself rejected in the presence of those accepted, the little mean spirited thing that wants to advance itself.

As to how this speaks (not of Cain's) but of my spiritual condition, I don't know. I mull these things sometimes when I feel an anger arise, especially toward those whom I believe, and say, I love. How many painful lessons have I inflicted, when I know (and have tasted) the Lord has shown me such grace? How can this be?

I think at times the only response of any grain of truth I could offer in the presence of the Lord as to any why I might be able to give as to the why I seek Him is this "you're the only one who truly knows me and yet would still have me."

It appears His glory deserves so much better, yet that seems more true than anything else I might offer.
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