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Old 02-25-2018, 07:34 AM
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The Destitution of Service By Oswald Chambers

…though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved. —2 Corinthians 12:15

Natural human love expects something in return. But Paul is saying, “It doesn’t really matter to me whether you love me or not. I am willing to be completely destitute anyway; willing to be poverty-stricken, not just for your sakes, but also that I may be able to get you to God.” “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor…” (2 Corinthians 8:9). And Paul’s idea of service was the same as our Lord’s. He did not care how high the cost was to himself— he would gladly pay it. It was a joyful thing to Paul.

The institutional church’s idea of a servant of God is not at all like Jesus Christ’s idea. His idea is that we serve Him by being the servants of others. Jesus Christ actually “out-socialized” the socialists. He said that in His kingdom the greatest one would be the servant of all (see Matthew 23:11). The real test of a saint is not one’s willingness to preach the gospel, but one’s willingness to do something like washing the disciples’ feet— that is, being willing to do those things that seem unimportant in human estimation but count as everything to God. It was Paul’s delight to spend his life for God’s interests in other people, and he did not care what it cost. But before we will serve, we stop to ponder our personal and financial concerns— “What if God wants me to go over there? And what about my salary? What is the climate like there? Who will take care of me? A person must consider all these things.” All that is an indication that we have reservations about serving God. But the apostle Paul had no conditions or reservations. Paul focused his life on Jesus Christ’s idea of a New Testament saint; that is, not one who merely proclaims the gospel, but one who becomes broken bread and poured-out wine in the hands of Jesus Christ for the sake of others.
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Old 02-25-2018, 11:16 AM
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The Destitution of Service By Oswald Chambers

…though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved. —2 Corinthians 12:15

Natural human love expects something in return. But Paul is saying, “It doesn’t really matter to me whether you love me or not. I am willing to be completely destitute anyway; willing to be poverty-stricken, not just for your sakes, but also that I may be able to get you to God.” “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor…” (2 Corinthians 8:9). And Paul’s idea of service was the same as our Lord’s. He did not care how high the cost was to himself— he would gladly pay it. It was a joyful thing to Paul.

The institutional church’s idea of a servant of God is not at all like Jesus Christ’s idea. His idea is that we serve Him by being the servants of others. Jesus Christ actually “out-socialized” the socialists. He said that in His kingdom the greatest one would be the servant of all (see Matthew 23:11). The real test of a saint is not one’s willingness to preach the gospel, but one’s willingness to do something like washing the disciples’ feet— that is, being willing to do those things that seem unimportant in human estimation but count as everything to God. It was Paul’s delight to spend his life for God’s interests in other people, and he did not care what it cost. But before we will serve, we stop to ponder our personal and financial concerns— “What if God wants me to go over there? And what about my salary? What is the climate like there? Who will take care of me? A person must consider all these things.” All that is an indication that we have reservations about serving God. But the apostle Paul had no conditions or reservations. Paul focused his life on Jesus Christ’s idea of a New Testament saint; that is, not one who merely proclaims the gospel, but one who becomes broken bread and poured-out wine in the hands of Jesus Christ for the sake of others.
You know brother how much I love you. Can I tell then of my truth and discomfort that I cannot stay silent on what an individual might make of another's meaning his place in Christ (Paul's in this case) out of the context of scripture (using scripture's chapter and verse to do so) which amounts to the author's ideas on service.

Is it natural of the world (unnatural) to love with beneficial expectations? There is no beneficial expectations or a consolation to those born again to Christ's kingdom?


2 Corintians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

..................


Quote: "The institutional church’s idea of a servant of God is not at all like Jesus Christ’s idea."

Really? Where in scripture does it say this? What does scripture say of Jesus' idea on the institution?

John 21:18

The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.

I have no idea what or where is the institutional church the author indicates is or is pointing to?

Quote {All that* is an indication that we have reservations about serving God} Say what? Serving God!? Is this both sides of the mouth speak?


*That! Paul never set himself up to be a burden to anyone! He had this one great reservation.
.........................


Now on broken bread and wine. Broken bread and wine are foods.

Ezekiel 34:10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.

This cannot be what food is meant by bread and wine since Christianity supplanted the old Jewish Cult. Or Can the individual become bread and wine? as in this:

Quote ("but one who becomes broken bread and poured-out wine in the hands of Jesus Christ for the sake of others.")
???

Did Paul make himself out to be broken bread and poured out wine in the hands of Christ as Christ was broken bread and poured out wine? Did Paul feed his life of suffering as food such as God feeds his people today through Christ's suffering on the cross? The comparison seems out of proportions. Paul's life can be viewed as an example. An example of what?

The saints are salt and as a chuck of salt Paul ( and not the bread and wine which is God's food) was a pretty good one.
................

12"But I will leave among you A humble and lowly people, And they will take refuge in the name of the LORD. 13"The remnant of Israel will do no wrong And tell no lies, Nor will a deceitful tongue Be found in their mouths; For they will feed and lie down With no one to make them tremble."


I deposit: Paul's consolation for all the suffering he lived was an intimate walk with God in Christ-- whereby he was comforted by Him. Paul walked with his individual will intact. Where the Spirit told him not to go... he chose not to go. He chose to be a burden to no one. He chose to serve people with the approval of the institutional church especially-- he did not minister on his own. Paul did not offer himself as broken-- but rather his Christ as crucified. And throughout it all Paul leaves us evidence in scripture that he was comforted. Are we?
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Last edited by gordon 2; 02-25-2018 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 02-25-2018, 11:36 AM
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Mr. Chambers is a wonderful teacher — to those who can hear him.
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Old 02-25-2018, 01:57 PM
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Mr. Chambers is a wonderful teacher — to those who can hear him.
I'm not... at this particular time. I'm testing the spirit and all I find now is contradictions within contradictions. Or talk to talk... like phoning someone just to phone. But I've been wrong before... and will no doubt be again... and could be on the gentleman.
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Last edited by gordon 2; 02-25-2018 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 02-26-2018, 06:37 AM
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I'm not... at this particular time. I'm testing the spirit and all I find now is contradictions within contradictions. Or talk to talk... like phoning someone just to phone. But I've been wrong before... and will no doubt be again... and could be on the gentleman.

It's "on me" for posting it. I can't find Oswald Chambers motives to investigate, but I can my own.

And you make some good points. Maybe I do "talk to talk", the Lord knows it isn't the first time I've heard that...and I will consider it further.

I don't know what you mean by

Quote:
This cannot be what food is meant by bread and wine since Christianity supplanted the old Jewish Cult.
Unless it's sort of tongue in cheek or facetious.

If you mean what, and how things devolved from God's certain intercourse with man into a means of man's oppression by other men, that surely bears discussion.

I have considered that particular religious practice of veneration of the dead; in some religions it takes the form of statuettes carried about or placed in some places of worship. Though the exact modes of expression may vary, ancestral worship seems not an uncommon resort.


They answered and said to him, 'Our father is Abraham.'

And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.



I recall an exchange in a temple (though church was the name on it) in Jackson, Tennessee when it was pointed out that the as large as life (if not slightly larger) statues in the hall outside their sanctuary with names like Paul, John written upon them, might not be as pleasing to the Lord they claimed to worship as they thought.

The people were very very upset by this and was spent, I believe, a few days in detention for that particular "interruption" of their festivities.

I am sure those Baptists, in any other circumstance of internal discussion would be loathe to consider themselves involved with any idolatry.

Perhaps you sense that with Oswald's observations of Paul...there is an elevation beyond the acceptable. I am not sure I am not guilty of this at times. And if that unwholesome spirit is in some measure working through me to an agreement of sorts in it by posting, then I appreciate your rebuke. But, then again, familiar with more than this short OP, I have found Oswald Chambers not a bit behind in plainly declaring the Lord Jesus' preeminence in all things pertaining to the Church.

Nobody said, Jesus in particular and always, that this adventure would be easy, though His yoke is found so. Just simple...and necessary. And as you ably pointed out so very, very beneficial.
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I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out...and mos' probbly, neither of us" Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Great Divide"

Last edited by Israel; 02-26-2018 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 02-26-2018, 08:56 AM
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Quote{ though the more abundantly I love you, the less I am loved. —2 Corinthians 12:15
....

But Paul is saying, “It doesn’t really matter to me whether you love me or not. I am willing to be completely destitute anyway; willing to be poverty-stricken, not just for your sakes, but also that I may be able to get you to God.”} end quote


Is this what Paul is saying? Paul does not care whether he is loved or not? It seems to me that the sociopath thinks as this...not Paul. Why would Paul seek to introduce Jesus in the lives of people if not that they increase in love which benefit he also gains?


The more abundantly that we (I) love the more it is evident that by the world we are ( or that I am) unloved. Is not this the natural experience of all saints who willingly cleave with steadiness to the Holy Spirit as they practice their gifts? It has noting to do with willfull sacrifice, but in itself the natural nature of a saint is to even expect the world to honestly claim the saint to be of Beelzebub! because the world judges from the perspectives of Beelzebub! The saint's judgement however is from another source fully! Thus the increase awareness of the poles of love and hate for the saint.


John 16:8-12
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.


Have you ever met "missionaries" who claim a calling to foriegn missions and they set out not knowing kit or kin or not much of anything about a foreign culture and they claim the Holy Spirit is guiding them to? I have. Is this what Paul did?

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

------------
Now on these words of mine.: "This cannot be what food is meant by bread and wine since Christianity supplanted the old Jewish Cult." These were perhaps my grasping for some expression that I am taken aback that broken bread and wine could be other than our Lord as bread and wine. It is just that Christ be our example in many things, but in this being broken bread and wine we are overreaching and seem to me an indication of talking for talking. It is a of a insight that seem loosed of the Holy Spirit to me just as this statement seems a blanket statement without much thought: "The institutional church’s idea of a servant of God is not at all like Jesus Christ’s idea."

But perhaps I'm wrong... it has happened before.
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Last edited by gordon 2; 02-26-2018 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 02-26-2018, 09:28 AM
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I am more inclined to see this as Chamber's view that Paul was making clear he was not at all deterred by what he perceived as their lack of love toward him, precisely because the love he was in all hope of their seeing...so far exceeded measurement as to be more than ample to keep his love for them...quite hot and fervent.

Yes, Paul began to see when he was struck blind.
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