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Old 01-16-2018, 09:10 PM
Banjo Picker Banjo Picker is offline
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Default Jesus Christ Is Not the Father or the Holy Gost

Many are mislead in making Jesus the only person in the Godhead and more than what the Bible says He is and they rob the father and the Holy spirit of their own separate personalities and make them less than what the Bible says they are, thus depriving them of their rightful and separate places in the unity of God. It is highly important to know whether there are three persons in the Godhead, so as to give each His rightful place and proper love and worship, and to understand the Bible, so as not to be led astray into many false doctrines that naturally come if we permit ourselves to contort Scripture to suit ourselves, or to conform to some human church creed. The following points prove that Jesus Christ is not the Father or the Holy Ghost:

1. The Father was in Heaven all the time that Jesus was on Earth; so the Father could not have been incarnated in Jesus (Matt. 5:16, 45, 48; 6:1, 9; 7:21; 16:17; 18:10; 23:9).

2. Jesus said He would confess men "BEFORE MY FATHER" and "BEFORE THE ANGELS" and this He could not do if He were not separate person from the Father and the angels (Matt. 10:32-23; Luke 12:8, 9; Rev. 3:2-5). Such language would permit Him to be the angel as much as it would permit Him to be the Father. The word "before" means in the presence of, or face to face with, and requires both the Father and the angels to be distinct persons from Jesus. This word could never be used if only one person were involved, any more than it could be in 1,767 similar expressions in Scripture (Matt. 14:6; 17:2; 1 Tim. 5:19, 20; 6:13; Rev. 4:5, 6; 5:8; 7:9, 11, 15; 8:2 ).

3. Jesus always prayed to the father and addressed Him as a separate person from Himself (Matt. 11:25; 26:39, 42-46; Luke 10:21; 22:42; 23:34; John 11:41; 12:28; 17:1-25). In no place do we read of the Father praying to any one, but the Son constantly prays to someone else outside of Himself.

4. The Father was OUTSIDE the body of Jesus protecting Him, so could not be incarnated in Jesus, or be all of God INSIDE of Jesus as some teach (Matt. 2:12-23; 3:16, 17; 17:5; Luke 22:39-46; John 12:27-30).

5. All the Old Testament prophets quoted in the New Testament prove that the Father is a separate person from the Son, for it was the Father who spoke "by the prophets" and "through the spirit" CONCERNING the Son (Heb. 1:1-3; Acts 3:21; Rom. 1:1-4; 1 Pet. 1:1-16; 2 Pet. 1:21) note THE SPEAKER and the person SPOKEN OF in Matt. 2:15, 23; 4:6; 12:17-21; 22:41; 27:9-11; Luke 4:16-21; 24:27, 44-46; John 18:9; Acts 2:22-34; 3:13-24; 4:25-31; 7:2-50; 8:32-37; 10:34-43; 13:23-41; Heb. 2: 3-9; 5:5-10). Human language means nothing in the Bible if two and three persons are not understood in such statements as these passages.

6. Both Jesus and Satan refer to the Father as a separate person from the Son. "HE [one person] shall give HIS angels charge CONCERNING THEE" (Jesus, the Son of the Father, another person Matt. 4:6).

7. Jesus constantly referred to the Father as a separate person from Himself and as being separated bodily from Him as far as the Heavens is above the Earth (Matt. 7:21; 10:32, 33; 11:27; 15:13; 16:17, 27; 18:10-35; 20:23; Mark 12:32; John 5).

8. The New Testament writers called the Father, "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," but such could never be if He were the Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:3, 17; 3:14; 1 Pet. 1:3; Matt. 27:46; John 20:17).

9. The phrases "the Son of the Father" (2 John 3), his Father" (Matt. 16:27; Rev. 1:6; 14:1), "my Father" (used 57 times, Matt. 7:21; John 15:1; Rev. 2:27; 3:5) "my God" (John 20:17; Rev. 3:12), and other like statements made by Jesus of His Father and by others of God being the Father of Jesus could not be true if Jesus were the Father and the only person called God. If Jesus spoke of God the Father as being His Father and His God, then He either lied or told the truth. Such language demands of us to believe in another person who is the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Not once did Jesus or any Bible writer use such terms as Jesus, the father , the Father Jesus, spirit Jesus, Father Jesus, one person in the Godhead, Jesus only, and other unscriptural terms used by some people.

10. Jesus in Parables illustrates His relationship to the Father as that of a Son and as a separate person from the Father (Matt. 21:33-46; Luke 20:9-18; John 15:1-10). To believe in only one person as being both the Father and Son in these passages is to make Jesus a plain liar. If He said He was "the vine" and the Father was "the husbandman" (John 15) and if God the Father is compared to "a certain householder" and the Son is compared "his son" and "heir" then this relationship is the truth and nothing but the truth, thus distinguishing two persons known as "the Father" and "the Son" (Matt. 21:33-46; Luke 20:9-18).

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Old 01-16-2018, 10:01 PM
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Amen. I like all the book, chapter, verse support for your post.
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:07 PM
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Just out of curiosity whats your thoughts on Melchizedek?
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Old 01-16-2018, 10:54 PM
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When we get to the future home of the Saints, will we see God and Jesus there or just Jesus?
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
When we get to the future home of the Saints, will we see God and Jesus there or just Jesus?
In heaven, the HS is never mentioned. Hmmmm? So wonder why the 3rd coequal person of the Godhead ceases to exist?
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Old 01-17-2018, 08:01 AM
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When Jesus died on the cross, wasn't he "dead" for some period (at least the entire day of Saturday, the Sabbath). So, during those three days, did the Trinity cease to exist? Unlike the preincarnate Jesus who was in Heaven with the Father, or occasionally coming to Earth as "The angel of the Lord" (not "an angel" but THE angel), this weekend of 14 Nisan, in the year we now call 32 A.D. or whatever, the Trinity was reduced to ... what, a duality? A duo?
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by GunnSmokeer View Post
When Jesus died on the cross, wasn't he "dead" for some period (at least the entire day of Saturday, the Sabbath). So, during those three days, did the Trinity cease to exist? Unlike the preincarnate Jesus who was in Heaven with the Father, or occasionally coming to Earth as "The angel of the Lord" (not "an angel" but THE angel), this weekend of 14 Nisan, in the year we now call 32 A.D. or whatever, the Trinity was reduced to ... what, a duality? A duo?
Very interesting thought was provoked by your comment regarding when the end will come. Anybody see it?. EDIT, I just googled some info. What I thought I saw does not work
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by GunnSmokeer View Post
When Jesus died on the cross, wasn't he "dead" for some period (at least the entire day of Saturday, the Sabbath). So, during those three days, did the Trinity cease to exist? Unlike the preincarnate Jesus who was in Heaven with the Father, or occasionally coming to Earth as "The angel of the Lord" (not "an angel" but THE angel), this weekend of 14 Nisan, in the year we now call 32 A.D. or whatever, the Trinity was reduced to ... what, a duality? A duo?
I think the Trinity belief is that the man persona of Jesus died and the Son 1/3 of the Godhead went to witness to the dead.
There is some belief that the 1/3 pre-exisiting part of the Godhead known as Son, incarnate as a man. Once he did this he became subject to the always existing part of the Godhead know as Father. So maybe after his incarnation or coming to the earth he lost his equality with the other 2/3's of the Godhead. He will be given authority to judge and to reign. Eventually he will hand over this authority to the Father and once again become subject to the Father and sit at the right side of his Father's throne.

Regardless of what equality he had before his incarnation, it looks like he lost it after the incarnation. So maybe at the incarnation it became a duality of the Father and his Spirit.
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:38 AM
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In heaven, the HS is never mentioned. Hmmmm? So wonder why the 3rd coequal person of the Godhead ceases to exist?
Who do you think we will see in or at wherever we go? Even some Trinitarians believe we will only see God through Jesus.
That when Jesus went back to Heaven, he once again unified spiritually with the Godhead. So the Trinity perhaps becomes the Oneness it once was.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:05 PM
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Back to the OP;

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Is Paul saying the head of the man persona of Christ is God? He's not even saying that Christ "is" God.
Did Christ assume this after his incarnation? Was he equal before the incarnation but not after? What about when Christ went back to Heaven? Why does he sit at the hand of God? Is the head of Christ "still" God?

1 Corinthians 15:24
he hands over the kingdom to God the Father

Notice this verse does actually say "God the Father" meaning Jesus could be "God the Son."

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

This verse makes it appear Christ is not God. "God himself" is not under Christ. It doesn't say God the Father is not under God the Son. Paul uses the word God to always mean "the Father" as if Christ was subject to God.
Did Christ's incarnation remove his equality with the Trinity? Did it remove his Oneness of being God?

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Old 01-17-2018, 12:22 PM
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Was there an eternal submission or a temporary submission?

Ephesians 1:3-5
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:21 PM
matt79brown matt79brown is offline
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Hebrews 1 seems to show some interaction between God the Son and God the father. John 1 lends credit to that. There seems to be a connection between Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58 also. Somewhere I read that Jesus was name above all names, head over all things concerning the church, Alpha and the Omega.... Paul also says something about The Lord when He was in the flesh but says "thus we know Him no longer". John in his revelation ''fell as one dead'' after seeing the Lord in His glory. Right now He is at the right hand of God making intercession for me. Further along we'll know all about it I suppose.
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
Who do you think we will see in or at wherever we go? Even some Trinitarians believe we will only see God through Jesus.
That when Jesus went back to Heaven, he once again unified spiritually with the Godhead. So the Trinity perhaps becomes the Oneness it once was.
I think we will see them how we may have visioned the garden of Eden if Adam had not have sinned. God and also Jesus as the second Adam
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
I think the Trinity belief is that the man persona of Jesus died and the Son 1/3 of the Godhead went to witness to the dead.
There is some belief that the 1/3 pre-exisiting part of the Godhead known as Son, incarnate as a man. Once he did this he became subject to the always existing part of the Godhead know as Father. So maybe after his incarnation or coming to the earth he lost his equality with the other 2/3's of the Godhead. He will be given authority to judge and to reign. Eventually he will hand over this authority to the Father and once again become subject to the Father and sit at the right side of his Father's throne.

Regardless of what equality he had before his incarnation, it looks like he lost it after the incarnation. So maybe at the incarnation it became a duality of the Father and his Spirit.
Ever wondered why the bible is completely void of any context similar to your post. No explanation what so ever. As if they understood it so clearly that it needed no explanation??? And yet, 2000 years later we still are confused with it????
Not so much as a hint of clarification needed. Hmmm, smart people back then
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:09 PM
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Ever wondered why the bible is completely void of any context similar to your post. No explanation what so ever. As if they understood it so clearly that it needed no explanation??? And yet, 2000 years later we still are confused with it????
Not so much as a hint of clarification needed. Hmmm, smart people back then
Even Paul who who was enlightened.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."
He must have thought "the" God was the Father of Jesus.
He calls the Father "God."

"the head of Christ is God."
"it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ."
Again Paul refers to God himself as the one who put everything under Christ.
To Paul Christ was a separate entity from God.
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Old 01-17-2018, 06:19 PM
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Default Jesus Christ Is Not The Father or the Holy Ghost

1. Jesus taught men to go directly to the father in all prayer and not pray to Him at all: "YE SHALL ASK ME NOTHING. . . . . Ask the Father IN MY NAME, he will give it you" (John 14:12-15; 15:16; 16:23-28). What could be clearer than that Jesus is not the Father? If men are commanded to "ASK ME NOTHING" but to "ASK THE FATHER" instead, then He is not the Father. It is one of the most unreasonable doctrines under the sun to teach that Jesus and His Father are one and the same person and that the body of Jesus is the son and inner man of Jesus is the Father. It is ridiculous to ask men to pray to one part of a person in the name of another part of the same person, or to call two parts of one person by different names---one part called the Father, or inner part, and another part called the Son, or the body part, one part to be the authority to go to the other part in prayer, or more ridiculous still, as some people do, to ignore the Father part and pray only to the Son, or body part. If language of Jesus does not refer to two persons, then we have to conclude that He did not know how to use the human language.

2. On certain occasions Jesus thanked the Father, "looking up to Heaven," where the Father dwelled (not looking inside of Himself to a Father that dwelled within (John 11:41; Matt. 26:25-27; Mark 8:6; 14:23). Was Jesus giving thanks to Himself and teaching us by example self-praise and self-worship, or was there a real Father OUTSIDE of Him who dwelled in Heaven as a separate person?

3. Many statements were made concerning the Father that could not have been true of Jesus: The Father was in Heaven while Jesus was on Earth (Matt. 5:1, 48); The Father knew things that Jesus did not know (Matt. 10:29-31; Mark 13:32; Acts 1:7; Rev. 1:1); The Father was "good." But Jesus did not claim any such quality in Himself (Matt. 19:17); the Father was on a throne and Jesus was not (Matt. 23:22); Jesus is coming in the glory of the Father and not in His own glory (Matt. 16:27); Jesus prayed to the Father and never to Himself (Matt. 26:39-42; John 17); Jesus prophesied that He would be exalted at the right hand of the Father (Matt. 26:64), and later the apostles said He was there (Acts 2:33-36; Eph. 1:20; Col. 3:1; Heb. 1:3; 8:1; 12:2; Rom. 8:34). Stephen actually saw Jesus with His own eyes on God's right hand (Acts 7:56-59). Jesus committed His spirit to God the Father at death, proving He died, but the Father did not die (Luke 23:46) . Others saw Jesus as a separate person from the Father (Dan. 7:9-14; Rev. 5:1-7).

4. Jesus claim that He was SENT BY GOD, that HE CAME FROM God, and that He WAS GOING BACK TO God (Matt. 15:24; John 3:16-18, 34; 5:30, 36-37; 6:29-40, 44, 57; 7:16, 28-29; 8:16-18, 29, 42; 9:4; 10:36; 11:42; 12:45, 49; 15:21; 16:5; 17:3,8,21-25; Gal. 4:4; 1 John 4:9). These Scripture would not make sense if only one person was referred to. The sense in which God sent Jesus is the same sense in which Jesus sent His disciples (John 17:18; 20:21) and the same sense in which the Father and the Son sent the Spirit into the world (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15). Being sent does not make the one sent the same person as the one who sends. If so, then the disciples all became Jesus Christ when they were sent by Him. If being sent proves two persons, the sender and the one being sent, then it proves that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are separate persons from each other and from the Father, for both were sent by the Father.

5. Jesus plainly told Peter that His Father in Heaven was not "flesh and blood." and He told the Samaritan woman His Father and His God was "Spirit" (Matt. 16:16, 17; John 4:24; 19:34). Because Jesus was flesh and blood and did not claim to be "spirit" even in His resurrected state, He could not be the Father (Luke 24:39); John 19:34; Rom. 8:3).

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Old 01-17-2018, 06:47 PM
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Jesus, is God wrapped in flesh and came to earth. You can only worship one King
Not three.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:16 PM
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Jesus, is God wrapped in flesh and came to earth. You can only worship one King
Not three.
God in flesh is never called God the Son. Do you believe that this one God incarnate as the Son? In other words God incarnate as the Son, not a pre-existing 1/3 of the Godhead known as Christ who incarnate as himself.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:31 PM
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Jesus, is God wrapped in flesh and came to earth. You can only worship one King
Not three.
Will we see God and Jesus in Heaven or is God now wrapped in the flesh forever?
In 1 Corinthians 15, Jesus turns over the kingdom to God and sits at the right hand of God. How do we look at this considering the Son of God is handing something over to God his Father?
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:25 PM
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Make no mistake :that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who was crucified, whom God raised from the dead, there is no oneness. There is the Trinity. Jesus said in His great commission that all, not some, or part or most or a little but ALL authority has been given unto Me, Go there for and make disciples of all nations. teaching them to obsevre all that I have commanded you, and lo I am with you always, even to the close of the age.

Acts 4:10-12

10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

It also says that he who has the Son has life, he who has not the Son has not life. These words I have written unto you, that you may knowthat you have eternal life! Jesus walked this earth in two natures, both God and man. He died (physical body)
but spirit and soul went down to hades and let captivity captive. He set the prisoners free. Then He rose again and conquered death, the last enemy of those who are His.
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:15 PM
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The Op makes it clear the distiction of God the Son, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit .

But needs to be clear that Jesus was God, not a lessor god, not a created being.

It also needs to mention the unity of the GodHead, one God three distinct personalities that are separable
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Old 01-18-2018, 06:37 PM
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Default Genesis 14:18

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Originally Posted by matt79brown View Post
Just out of curiosity whats your thoughts on Melchizedek?
Gen. 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

Many idle stories and unscriptural interpretations have been given about Melchizedek; But the Bible states very simple facts about him which will give us a clear understanding of the subject, if we will limit ourselves to what is written.
He was king of Salem, which is the name of ancient Jerusalem. v. 18; Ps. 76:2; 122:3; Heb. 7:1, 2).

Bread and wine, these are the emblems of the Lord's Supper, showing that Melchizedek and the patriarchs fully understood the doctrine of atonement (Gal. 3:8; Heb. 4:1, 2; 1 Pet. 1:10-12; Luke 22:14-20; 1 Cor. 11:23-34).

A priest the first of the word and proves that God has had representatives in all ages. Melchizedek was Gentile whose priesthood is eternal in Christ (Ps. 110:4; Heb. 5:10; 6:20; 7:1-28). The Aaronic priesthood was temporary (Heb. 7:11, 12).

Melchizedek----7fold type of Christ (Gen. 14:18) in

1. Genealogy (Heb. 7:3, 6 with Mic. 5:2)
2. Sacrifice (14:18 with Luke 22:14-30)
3. Endless priesthood (Ps. 110 with Heb. 5:10; 6:20; 7:3, 17, 21, 23-28)
4. King-priest (Heb. 7:1 with Zech. 6:12, 13)
5. Greater than Abraham (Heb. 7:4-8 with Jn. 8:55-59)
6. King of righteousness (Heb. 7:2 with 1 Cor. 1:30; Heb. 1:8)
7. King of peace (Heb. 7:2 with Isa. 9:6)
The contrast between the Melchizedek and Aaronic priesthoods is the person, order and duration in His sacrificial work Christ followed the Aaronic which was merely the shadow of His sacrifice (Heb. 8:1-10:19).

Most high God Heb. EL-ELYON Most high God. First occurrence (v. 18-22). EL signifies Strong, first. It is the title that shows God to be the Mighty One, the first cause of everything, the possessor of the heavens and earth. It is used 245 times and is connected with some of the attributes of God as Al-mighty-God Gen. 17:1; Everlasting-God Gen. 21:33; Jealous-God Ex. 20:5; Great-God Dt. 10:17; Living-God Josh. 3:10; Merciful-God Dt. 4:31; Faithful-God Dt. 7:9; Mighty-God Dt. 7:21). In Dt. 32:4 it is connected with truth, justice, righteousness and perfection. EL-ELYON is always used to refer to the highest Sovereign of the heavens and earth (Luke 1:76; Acts 17:24).
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:01 PM
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So Jesus was after the order of Melchizedek was not a Priest of Israel or the Law.

Last edited by marketgunner; 01-18-2018 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:51 AM
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Ephesians 1:3-5
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

We know from scripture that God(singular) predestined us to be in the image of his Son.

Not really a Trinity or Oneness question but is their any other reason, other than predestination, that the Messiah had to be;
A) God(singular)
B) God the Son(duality)
C) The Son of God(deity)

Did the Messiah have to be a son? Is so, why? What's the importance or reason of the Messiah being a son? Especially the Son of God.

I'm wondering why or the difference between God incarnate vs the preexisting Son incarnate.
Why a Son? Why didn't God just come as God?
Why did God predestine us to be in the image of his Son instead of the Son predestining us to be in the image of himself? If there was a preexisting Trinity, it seems like scripture would say; "God the Son made us in his image" instead of "God made us in the image of his Son."

There must be a connection to sonship or a child of God dying for children of God. Our adoption of an inheritance we share with God's Son. It's just something about this sonship and inheritance sharing that makes it appear God's Son is his Son and not himself.
When we see Jesus and become like him. We won't become like his Father. We won't become God other than in unity.

God will still be able to be in one place and Jesus in another.
Otherwise God(Oneness) would have come to the earth as himself. He wouldn't have to morph back and forth between Father and Son like in the Oneness belief. In Oneness God can't be both at the same time. He has to be one or the other.
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Old 01-19-2018, 02:16 PM
marketgunner marketgunner is offline
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Jesus as God was in Heaven while on earth as a man.

He was the (only) image of the invisable God.

Conformed to be the image of His Son is not salvation or spiritual maturity it is becoming a human being, a prerequisite of sinful spiriual beings to be saved.

How can we be conformed before we are call or justified?
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