Go Back   Georgia Outdoor News Forum > Spiritual Help and Religion Discussions > Spiritual Discussions and Study


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 02-11-2018, 08:52 PM
hobbs27's Avatar
hobbs27 hobbs27 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dawsonville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

You notice body is singular?
__________________
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place." <--So simple, yet so hard for most.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-11-2018, 08:52 PM
Artfuldodger's Avatar
Artfuldodger Artfuldodger is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Martinez/Augusta
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
The death he died..

Roman's 6: 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Then there is no more sin?

22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Satan is dead, sin death is dead, all of Christ's enemies are dead. Christ defeated death and died for all sin.
Now "all is in all."
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-11-2018, 08:54 PM
hobbs27's Avatar
hobbs27 hobbs27 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dawsonville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

__________________
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place." <--So simple, yet so hard for most.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-11-2018, 08:55 PM
hobbs27's Avatar
hobbs27 hobbs27 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dawsonville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
Then there is no more sin?

22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Satan is dead, sin death is dead, all of Christ's enemies are dead. Christ defeated death and died for all sin.
Now "all is in all."
There sin... it's the charge of it that's gone as Christ covers it... If you get a chance watch the video above. Talk to you later.
__________________
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place." <--So simple, yet so hard for most.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-11-2018, 09:00 PM
Artfuldodger's Avatar
Artfuldodger Artfuldodger is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Martinez/Augusta
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
You notice body is singular?
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

"all will be made alive."
"each in his own turn" may be a singular event of plural people.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Singular event of the plural.

John 5:28
Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice

Singular event of the plural.

Daniel 12:2
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


Even if it happened in 70AD it was a resurrection of dead people, not the Old Testament resurrecting as the New. Not the Kingdom passing from Israel to the World.
Again, that may be but it's not the singular "body" you see in Corinthians 15.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 02-12-2018, 05:49 AM
hobbs27's Avatar
hobbs27 hobbs27 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dawsonville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Of course it was dead people. But they were all raised in one body, not individual bodies.

http://donkpreston.com/the-resurrection/
__________________
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place." <--So simple, yet so hard for most.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 02-12-2018, 06:45 AM
Artfuldodger's Avatar
Artfuldodger Artfuldodger is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Martinez/Augusta
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
Of course it was dead people. But they were all raised in one body, not individual bodies.

http://donkpreston.com/the-resurrection/
But in your view, the "dead" that were resurrected were the physically alive and the physically dead. They were dead in sin that resurrected in one singular body.

I don't deny the description of all God's children can be called the body of Christ, the Church. I just don't believe Paul is presenting the resurrection as this singular body.
At least in the way you believe.
I think they all resurrect at the same time(plurality). Some to eternal life and some to eternal death.
Some do resurrect to the singular body.
The corporate body, one body of many members.

It sounds very much like Universalism to say the resurrection was the body of Moses that resurrected to the Body of Christ or the body of Israel resurrected as the Church.
Then add to that saying death has been defeated. That "all is all" is already. Would you agree with what I said earlier?

"Satan is dead, sin death is dead, all of Christ's enemies are dead. Christ defeated death and died for all sin.
Now "all is in all."

If it's over then in this world there is no more sin.
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

There can be no more sin if this is the New Jerusalem. If we are now living in the New Earth with it's new heaven, we are all are saved. We are living on a sin free restored earth. In Christ all were made alive. If that is what the resurrection was. If that is what the resurrection accomplished.

If the resurrection was the way you describe it, sin and death are gone. The resurrection made everything righteous. We were made in God's image and that would have been restored as well at the resurrection.

As for as the one body view sounding like Universalism, look within your own people. Kurt Simmons comes to mind.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 02-12-2018, 07:19 AM
hobbs27's Avatar
hobbs27 hobbs27 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dawsonville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Here's a look into what life is like in the New heaven and earth... Notice there's still wicked people and those without Christ on earth, but they are not in the Kingdom, although the Spirit is calling and drawing.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
__________________
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place." <--So simple, yet so hard for most.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 02-12-2018, 10:56 AM
Artfuldodger's Avatar
Artfuldodger Artfuldodger is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Martinez/Augusta
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

I Like the way Preterism tries to answer this mystery of the resurrection. I just don't agree with their finding. Collectively and over the years they have re-examined the scriptures and found what they were looking for.
Answers to the age old question of the hope of the resurrection. The need of the resurrection. Answers to why one would got to heaven as a spirit at physical death only to return at a later date for a glorified body.
The whole concept of Preterism or a big part of it is explaining the resurrection as a past event in order that we can go to heaven spiritually without having to return or wait on a resurrection.
One would no longer need to hope for a future resurrection. No longer would they need a resurrection. It's past and now one can just die physically and go be with the Lord forever. One would just die and join this singular body that has already resurrected. It's a grand plan. I like it.

I like the concept, I just don't accept the answers they found. I don't accept their explanation of the resurrection, even if has already happened. Even if it's spiritual. Even if one goes to Heaven and doesn't come back.

The main concept of Preterism I don't agree with is the way they interpret the body resurrection as being singular. Being a past event doesn't bother me as much as the way they describe what the past event was.
Of course there are about 16 different groups withing Preterism so not all look at the resurrection in the same light. Futurists have their divisions based on beliefs as well.
The belief I have a problem with is the nature of the resurrection of the dead, not the 70AD timing. The Collective Body view or singular body. That Paul is always talking about the Church resurrection when he says body.
Just because he says "body" and not "bodies" they see the resurrection of the dead as those under the Law of Moses resurrecting as the Church.

That the resurrection was corporate in the sense that Christ represented this Body(singular) to his Father at the end. The end being the end of the Old and he is handing his Father the New, the Church, the bride.

That is their explanation of God being "all in all." The "all in all" was the time that God performed the redemption, reconciliation and restoration of what was lost through the entrance of sin-death into the world through Adam.
The resurrection of the dead was the "timed" event in Covenant Eschatology.
It was the crescendo and grand climax of God’s purpose that brings about the “restoration of all things”

Last edited by Artfuldodger; 02-12-2018 at 11:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:44 AM
Artfuldodger's Avatar
Artfuldodger Artfuldodger is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Martinez/Augusta
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
Here's a look into what life is like in the New heaven and earth... Notice there's still wicked people and those without Christ on earth, but they are not in the Kingdom, although the Spirit is calling and drawing.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
I can see how you see it that way. The New Jerusalem already here. Dogs are outside, believers on the inside.

In this description the gates never close, what keeps the outsiders out? Could the description of the sinners be as they are now and not in the future? That they must knock now to enter.

Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

If ongoing, when were those outsiders thrown into the lake of fire?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:45 AM
hobbs27's Avatar
hobbs27 hobbs27 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dawsonville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Who wrote that?
__________________
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place." <--So simple, yet so hard for most.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 02-12-2018, 12:15 PM
Artfuldodger's Avatar
Artfuldodger Artfuldodger is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Martinez/Augusta
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

John wrote it. He sees in his vision Jesus coming. Those with washed robes can enter the city. The sinners are outside at that time.
In the very next verse Jesus is saying he has presented the Gospel to the Churches.
Jesus has said to those in John's vision; The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely.

John is just looking ahead to what he sees. It's not a city that lost people can enter once it's here. They must come as per the request Jesus sent out now.
This is hard to explain. Futurist have the same problems as Preterist in answering every single story in the Bible. I can see why you see it the way you do when I put on Preterist goggles.

2 Peter 3:11-13
Since everything will be dissolved in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness
12as you anticipate and hasten the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be dissolved by fire and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with God’s promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

If everything old is replaced and dissolved, what kind of person should you be? Why a warning if one can enter at a later date? If this New Jerusalem comes down without replacing. If it co-exist with non-believers who can "come" after the description in 2 Peter 3:11-13.
Peter is saying come now because the old will be dissolved.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 02-12-2018, 12:27 PM
Artfuldodger's Avatar
Artfuldodger Artfuldodger is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Martinez/Augusta
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Maybe John is looking ahead in his vision and he sees the New Jerusalem with it's righteous and at the same time he sees the outsiders, the sinners.
This vision being how it would look before the old is destroyed. He says this before Jesus says, I've sent my offer out. He says it before the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!”.

In his vision it's before the New replaces the Old. Not that it's an ongoing process that once the New Jerusalem has replaced the old sinners can still enter. That the offer is still available to enter the new city once it replaces the old.
I'm just looking at it with my Futurist goggles, bending and twisting to make it fit.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 02-12-2018, 12:36 PM
hobbs27's Avatar
hobbs27 hobbs27 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dawsonville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

No.. The post before. I know that's not all your writing. Seven paragraphs without a question mark. You're not fooling me, you stole that from someone. Lol.
__________________
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place." <--So simple, yet so hard for most.

Last edited by hobbs27; 02-12-2018 at 02:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 02-12-2018, 02:53 PM
Artfuldodger's Avatar
Artfuldodger Artfuldodger is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Martinez/Augusta
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
No.. The post before. I know that's not all your writing. Seven paragraphs without a question mark. You're not fooling me, you stole that from someone. Lol.
Probably a record for me. I hope Centerpin Fan sees it.

I've looked at Preterism ever since you made the leap in that direction. For some reason the Spirit has just not lead me in that direction. Preterism does answer the Gospel accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD pretty well.

Matthew 16:28
"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

I can't deny that something happened back then. Some type of salvation. Maybe that one was physical salvation and the next one will be spiritual.
I surely don't have all the answers. My line is still crooked.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 02-12-2018, 04:25 PM
hobbs27's Avatar
hobbs27 hobbs27 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dawsonville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

It's really quiet simple for me to see. I trust the scriptures are true, and I test it with the scriptures, and I'm always seeing more and more connected to fulfillment.



Revelation 3: YLT
10 `Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

11 Lo, I come quickly, be holding fast that which thou hast, that no one may receive thy crown.
__________________
__________________
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place." <--So simple, yet so hard for most.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 02-12-2018, 08:52 PM
Artfuldodger's Avatar
Artfuldodger Artfuldodger is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Martinez/Augusta
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

I think I believe the way I do is because of Paul's description of Israel and the Gentiles in Romans 9-11. It paints a picture of Israel being in a deferred salvation state.
Backing up a bit to Daniel 12:2, I know you, Hobbs, see this as a reference to a national revival comparing it to Ezek 37.
Daniel however places this resurrection at the end. Daniel, sees it when ‘Jacob’s trouble’ ends in the final deliverance of Israel and the resurrection of the righteous.
Daniel sees his own resurrection at this time.

Daniel 12:13
"As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

I believe that since Paul also wrote Romans 9-11, it follows Daniels vision of the resurrection.

Now back to Romans 9-11. Paul sees a point in time that removes Israel's blindness. The re-grafting of the natural branches to their own olive tree. The time when the “deliverer comes out of Zion to turn ungodliness away from Jacob.”

Psalm 14:7
Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores his people, let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

Joel 3:16
The LORD will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the heavens will tremble. But the LORD will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.

Romans 11:26-27
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

Paul is using what Daniel saw. This has not happened yet the way Paul presents it in Romans 9-11. We haven't seen the correct events yet.
This partial hardening has come over Israel. A remnant was chosen. The Gentiles then being allowed to be grafted to the Olive Tree. Until the full number of Gentiles comes in. Then all Israel will be saved.

I know there are different ways of seeing this "all of Israel will be saved." Some believe it's one way for the Jews and another way for the Gentiles. I don't believe that to be true. Jesus said he is the only way.
Still though Paul was not seeking God. God chose him. So in the way election works, which has nothing to do with works, God the Potter can have mercy on whom he has mercy.

We don't really know who this "all Israel" will be. It can't be the Remnant and it can't be the Church. Here Paul is talking about physical Israel after the Remnant was elected and not by works mind you.
Regardless Christ has to be the fulfillment of "all Israel." Their blindness must be removed. God can have mercy and elect Jews just as he did Paul and us Gentiles. True still is that in Romans 9 Paul says; For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel but in Romans 11 he is talking about national Israel. God may have mercy on Jews as well as Gentiles. Again he elected Paul who wasn't seeking. He can remove anyone's blindness.

We can't ignore the olive-tree metaphor in Romans 11. We have a fullness of Israel and we have a fullness of Gentiles mentioned in Romans 11. In Romans 11, the name "Israel" is consistently used in an ethnic sense, meaning the Jewish people. "To turn ungodliness away from Jacob."
The faithful Remnant as all Israel doesn't fit the narrative either. Paul is concerned with the other group, those hardened.

Paul is talking about the ones hardened. Not the Remnant nor the Church. Earlier Paul referred to his fellow countrymen. That's the group Paul is questioning? What will happen to them? What is God's plan for them? Do they still have a future and when?

It just looks like a future event when "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob."
I haven't seen or read in scripture about any type of election or mass conversion in Jacob from Paul or Daniel.

I haven't seen the Potter having mercy on whom he will have mercy in relation to Jacob(Israel) as described in Romans 11.

Romans 11:29-31
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

This event has to happen after the Deliverer comes to remove
Godlessness from Jacob.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 02-12-2018, 09:17 PM
hobbs27's Avatar
hobbs27 hobbs27 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dawsonville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Daniel is told by an angel when the resurrection would be. 70 ad, it would take 42 months.. Time, Times, and half a time, for all things to be fulfilled when the power of the Holy People ( Jew's) was shattered. Then the resurrection.

Daniel 12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.
__________________
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place." <--So simple, yet so hard for most.

Last edited by hobbs27; 02-12-2018 at 09:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 02-12-2018, 10:16 PM
Artfuldodger's Avatar
Artfuldodger Artfuldodger is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Martinez/Augusta
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
Daniel is told by an angel when the resurrection would be. 70 ad, it would take 42 months.. Time, Times, and half a time, for all things to be fulfilled when the power of the Holy People ( Jew's) was shattered. Then the resurrection.

Daniel 12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.
It's funny how we all pick and choose what is literal and what is symbolic to fit our own beliefs.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 02-12-2018, 10:34 PM
Artfuldodger's Avatar
Artfuldodger Artfuldodger is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Martinez/Augusta
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Hobbs,
If the resurrection was the "body of death" being Moses' body, into which ALL Israel was baptized, how do you justify that this is not Universalism?

If "all in all" happened in 70ad and death from sin was finished, if all Israel was saved? If the last enemy to be destroyed is death, meaning spiritual death?

If Christ is risen, and returned and conquered ALL of his enemies isn't death defeated and ALL humanity is reconciled to God?

How do we live physically without salvation if all has already happened?

I just can't get into watching a Don Preston or even a Kurt Simmons video.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:01 PM
Artfuldodger's Avatar
Artfuldodger Artfuldodger is offline
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Martinez/Augusta
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Romans 5:19
Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.

Many?

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.

All?

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Many?

Romans 5:18
Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

All?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

All?

Nothing to do with Preterism or Futurism but Universalism concerning the many vs the all.
All have sinned. Jesus died for all sin. All in all. Mercy on all. All will hear. All will bow. All Israel will be saved. Who desires all men to be saved.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 02-13-2018, 04:20 AM
hobbs27's Avatar
hobbs27 hobbs27 is offline
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dawsonville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

All doesn't always mean all. I've shown the present system in Revelation 22:17. All in All, simply means Everything, Everywhere..

There's no universalism in scripture. Don Preston is not a universalist and as far as I know neither is Kurt Simmons, although he went astray some years back, so I havent heard anything on his position in a while. I do have one of his older books that I enjoy from time to time though.
__________________
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place." <--So simple, yet so hard for most.

Last edited by hobbs27; 02-13-2018 at 05:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004 Georgia Outdoor News, Inc.Ad Management by RedTyger