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  #351  
Old 12-12-2017, 07:07 PM
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And in a sense your disbelief has disproved all of those other gods. You have seen enough evidence, or better yet LACK of evidence, that has you positive that those gods just do not exist and the people who say that those gods exists are mistaken and their evidence is not really evidence that convinces you.
I go one god further.
I follow you now.
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  #352  
Old 12-12-2017, 08:41 PM
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So if my disbelief canít disprove another god, how does yours disprove any of of them?
If there is equal evidence (or lack of evidence) in the existence of gods which you reject then why should anyone give more credence to your god?
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  #353  
Old Yesterday, 06:52 AM
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Have you ever had a friend tell you something so painfully deep about yourself that you did not want to believe it, and that at that time appeared to you as a betrayal of sorts, a hurtful rejection from which you did not believe you could recover?

Yet, you know it's true?
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  #354  
Old Yesterday, 07:08 AM
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Have you ever had a friend tell you something so painfully deep about yourself that you did not want to believe it, and that at that time appeared to you as a betrayal of sorts, a hurtful rejection from which you did not believe you could recover?

Yet, you know it's true?
You'll get over it.
We tell you these things because we care.
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  #355  
Old Yesterday, 12:18 PM
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Here is my take.
We are part of a reality that we can not measure, define nor map. To state with any level of certainty that we know how or when or why it came to be is the absolute height of arrogance.
The only thing we know is that we don't know and probably never will.
That leaves us only with what we believe. Your belief is no more rational nor relevant than mine, it is not superior, does not demonstrate any heightened awareness and could be simply a collection of chemicals in our own brain.
Now, I do believe what I believe, with a passion. I do not believe that your different belief becomes superior or inferior based on the differences in our passion. And those differences in passion do not become reason.
Here's the kicker, I am comfortable with you believing whatever you want. But when you tell me you Know, I ain't buying it, not even on double coupon tuesdays blue light special.
I pray to Jesus for peace on Earth and Goodwill to men.
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  #356  
Old Yesterday, 12:48 PM
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you'll get over it.
We tell you these things because we care.
lol...
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  #357  
Old Yesterday, 01:21 PM
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Here is my take.
We are part of a reality that we can not measure, define nor map. To state with any level of certainty that we know how or when or why it came to be is the absolute height of arrogance.
The only thing we know is that we don't know and probably never will.
That leaves us only with what we believe. Your belief is no more rational nor relevant than mine, it is not superior, does not demonstrate any heightened awareness and could be simply a collection of chemicals in our own brain.
Now, I do believe what I believe, with a passion. I do not believe that your different belief becomes superior or inferior based on the differences in our passion. And those differences in passion do not become reason.
Here's the kicker, I am comfortable with you believing whatever you want. But when you tell me you Know, I ain't buying it, not even on double coupon tuesdays blue light special.
I pray to Jesus for peace on Earth and Goodwill to men.
Good speech. Try that one in a church some time.
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  #358  
Old Yesterday, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Israel View Post
lol...
I was reading this the other day and I couldn't help but think about you
https://www.thedailybeast.com/new-te...nt-exactly-new

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Recent scholarship has questioned the accuracy of this caricature and suggested instead that the Gnostics were philosophically inclined Christians who were in many ways identical to their more orthodox counterparts.
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  #359  
Old Yesterday, 07:13 PM
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Thanks for that Walt. It seems a kind thing to be retained somewhere in the thoughts of another, and kinder yet to have it mentioned.

As I have taken what I hope will remain a constant stance in its diffusion throughout my being to a consistency, this helps a great deal. My stance is simple...all that the Lord has done He has done in favor to me, and for me.

He is beyond expecting anything "from" me in the sense that "I might come up with something to offer Him in return". That alone almost sounds heretical, I know...but to touch what you said (and was briefly discussed as to omniscience)...it becomes laughable for me to think (as a man, barely knowing himself before the One who knows me completely) that I might find something he hasn't seen, doesn't know of me, to present. The impetus born of a gratitude may be there to think one might try, and I am coming to see it is that precisely...a gratitude, that the Lord enjoys. Having little to do with what one may have erroneously thought one would find or could fulfill in a "return". To be grateful.

And then I begin to see, perhaps understand...even in more particular what I claimed as stance...that is, all having been done as gift. Gratitude! What a wonderful thing! I can be made to be grateful! The joy of it far outshines the obvious relegations inherent in so being...and those particularly are easily seen as the misadventures pursued by one moved by a sense of lack. (Contentment has within itself much to the avoidance of many griefs)

I am poor in translation. What may yet remain in any form...no matter how small and fading of regret...I see clearly have all been owed to a thing in their nativity...my striving to, in whatever form...be more than I see myself to be. Because I was operating from that place of dissatisfaction...either with estate, in comparisons, and the like. But gratitude! It more than amply reveals places of previous misstep to avoid...it is really O! so very pleasant! To know I am enough, "have" enough, can never make myself more in answer to One who holds all (what do you get for the Being who not only has everything...but is the Everything?) What can one give to add to Him? (Forgive the gender pronoun if need be)

It has taken decades, but I am not ashamed...any light...even if seen seemingly late is never too late. I think fathers begin to get this, how their joy is best fulfilled in their children, their little ones. How much greater to watch the child's wonder when it lands a 4" blue gill than to put one's own name in a record book with a Blue Marlin. That kind of thing. I believe Jesus referenced that when He said "These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full." One rejoicing...in the joy of another.


Yes Walt, thank you. It is good to be thought of, to know, in whatever part...there's a part of you residing in another.

You are often with me, too, in thoughts. And prayer.

Yeah, you help me understand "I have all, and am full".
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  #360  
Old Yesterday, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by PopPop View Post
Here is my take.
We are part of a reality that we can not measure, define nor map. To state with any level of certainty that we know how or when or why it came to be is the absolute height of arrogance.
The only thing we know is that we don't know and probably never will.
That leaves us only with what we believe. Your belief is no more rational nor relevant than mine, it is not superior, does not demonstrate any heightened awareness and could be simply a collection of chemicals in our own brain.
Now, I do believe what I believe, with a passion. I do not believe that your different belief becomes superior or inferior based on the differences in our passion. And those differences in passion do not become reason.
Here's the kicker, I am comfortable with you believing whatever you want. But when you tell me you Know, I ain't buying it, not even on double coupon tuesdays blue light special.
I pray to Jesus for peace on Earth and Goodwill to men.
There are different kinds of knowledge. There's the kind that appears to be universal like math. Then there's the kind that's based on math but isn't completely provable like physics, and then there's purely anecdotal knowledge like when someone says "I felt it" or "I heard it" or "I saw it" with no corroboration of witnesses or physical evidence.

"I saw what I saw" will probably only be meaningful to people who trust you very deeply and even then if what you claim to have seen seems extraordinary or supernatural they might not believe you and I think that's fair. I haven't had an extraordinary or supernatural experiences that I'm absolutely convinced were true. Any experiences that I've had that came close to that could be explained by natural causes.
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  #361  
Old Today, 12:20 AM
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Good speech. Try that one in a church some time.
Been there and done that.
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  #362  
Old Today, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by PopPop View Post
Here is my take.
We are part of a reality that we can not measure, define nor map. To state with any level of certainty that we know how or when or why it came to be is the absolute height of arrogance.
The only thing we know is that we don't know and probably never will.
That leaves us only with what we believe. Your belief is no more rational nor relevant than mine, it is not superior, does not demonstrate any heightened awareness and could be simply a collection of chemicals in our own brain.
Now, I do believe what I believe, with a passion. I do not believe that your different belief becomes superior or inferior based on the differences in our passion. And those differences in passion do not become reason.
Here's the kicker, I am comfortable with you believing whatever you want. But when you tell me you Know, I ain't buying it, not even on double coupon tuesdays blue light special.
I pray to Jesus for peace on Earth and Goodwill to men.
I'm with you in spirit but just a comment -
I think there is a place between here -
Quote:
The only thing we know is that we don't know and probably never will.
and here -
Quote:
That leaves us only with what we believe.
- It acknowledges the "we don't know".
- ** It accounts for "what we do know".
- And that is the basis for what we do/don't believe
And in broad terms, is where we as A/As sit and argue/debate from. And it does, in reality, impact this due to the definition of "rational" -
Quote:
Your belief is no more rational
Quote:
I pray to Jesus for peace on Earth and Goodwill to men.
Can't argue with that
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  #363  
Old Today, 09:11 AM
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It has always bothered me that Christians accuse God of something so brutal, that he would commit something he created to eternal agony. Eternally, not just one life span but suffer forever and ever. And where would be his cut off line for age? Babies, teen.... We have determined that our judicial system considers 18 of age as an adult thus suffering the full wrath of the law. How about God? Does he throw an 8 year old in he11 because they did not accept him at bible school and then got killed that year in a car accident? Do you say no? Well what age then to you think God has determined to do this horrible thing? Since he created man, is he then not responsible for for our lack of trust/belief in him. Would it not be his fault because he has not convinced all? And just think about it, how many souls are in agony now, suffering in he11 right now? How many of your family members are there now, in agony. Shameful that Christianity loves this concept. It should make you sick to your stomach. Mankind should be trying to find a way to overcome this god. Would our country not work to destroy a metorite that was headed toward earth? Or a ruthless leader? Disgusting that Christianity has accused God of such a thing. And to present a belief as if believe or else this. This concept and many others in the bible are accepted because everyone wants to take a book and believe every word.... although it's been tampered with. This concept of he11 is built around 2 basic wrongs. The story of the rich man and Lazurus is a parable that has assisted in the wrong interpretations of many other verses. All the NT verses that have the same topic where translated as a fire that consumes, not burns forever..... except those regarding the fallen angels. There is a real he11 for them because something has to be done with them because they are eternal beings. We are not eternal beings unless born again of the spirit as was Jesus. Christians actually love the concept of he11. They lose no sleep over the socalled reality of it. They have no remorse that their God would do such a thing. And yet, even though proving the he11 concept as wrong takes very little bible study, looking at the words used, very little research, being the easiest false bible concept to prove wrong...... funny how not one of them will say to themselves, I will check into this to see if this has any merit. They will not research it, they might throw out 1 verses as if theology builds from one verses. They will move on as if they almost would hate to discover that they are wrong. Do they enjoy this concept that much.... or are they guided to dismiss it? I say it would be most important to check into it because of the magnitude of accusing a just God of something so unjust
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  #364  
Old Today, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
I'm with you in spirit but just a comment -
I think there is a place between here -

and here -

- It acknowledges the "we don't know".
- ** It accounts for "what we do know".
- And that is the basis for what we do/don't believe
And in broad terms, is where we as A/As sit and argue/debate from. And it does, in reality, impact this due to the definition of "rational" -




Can't argue with that
Once you assume God then everything is attributable to Him and impossible to disprove that He did it. That guy that used to come on here named Lowjack said his congregation rebuked a hurricane once. I wasn't there but I imagine they were in the path of a hurricane, they prayed and the hurricane turned. To them it was enough proof that their rebuke worked. How did they know it was God or even their God? Strangely, as is often brought up here, God never regrows a lost limb that's prayed for. What's that prove to a believer?

There are way to use ones ability to reason that seem better suited and more in line with the natural world.
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  #365  
Old Today, 09:52 AM
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It has always bothered me that Christians accuse God of something so brutal, that he would commit something he created to eternal agony. Eternally, not just one life span but suffer forever and ever. And where would be his cut off line for age? Babies, teen.... We have determined that our judicial system considers 18 of age as an adult thus suffering the full wrath of the law. How about God? Does he throw an 8 year old in he11 because they did not accept him at bible school and then got killed that year in a car accident? Do you say no? Well what age then to you think God has determined to do this horrible thing? Since he created man, is he then not responsible for for our lack of trust/belief in him. Would it not be his fault because he has not convinced all? And just think about it, how many souls are in agony now, suffering in he11 right now? How many of your family members are there now, in agony. Shameful that Christianity loves this concept. It should make you sick to your stomach. Mankind should be trying to find a way to overcome this god. Would our country not work to destroy a metorite that was headed toward earth? Or a ruthless leader? Disgusting that Christianity has accused God of such a thing. And to present a belief as if believe or else this. This concept and many others in the bible are accepted because everyone wants to take a book and believe every word.... although it's been tampered with. This concept of he11 is built around 2 basic wrongs. The story of the rich man and Lazurus is a parable that has assisted in the wrong interpretations of many other verses. All the NT verses that have the same topic where translated as a fire that consumes, not burns forever..... except those regarding the fallen angels. There is a real he11 for them because something has to be done with them because they are eternal beings. We are not eternal beings unless born again of the spirit as was Jesus. Christians actually love the concept of he11. They lose no sleep over the socalled reality of it. They have no remorse that their God would do such a thing. And yet, even though proving the he11 concept as wrong takes very little bible study, looking at the words used, very little research, being the easiest false bible concept to prove wrong...... funny how not one of them will say to themselves, I will check into this to see if this has any merit. They will not research it, they might throw out 1 verses as if theology builds from one verses. They will move on as if they almost would hate to discover that they are wrong. Do they enjoy this concept that much.... or are they guided to dismiss it? I say it would be most important to check into it because of the magnitude of accusing a just God of something so unjust
And we thought it was just us who found the concept somewhat troubling
But yes, the whole "burn in he11" concept, while certainly a foundation in modern Christian belief, can certainly be strongly debated against as to "accurate Bible interpretation"/historical accuracy.
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  #366  
Old Today, 10:07 AM
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Shameful that Christianity loves this concept. Disgusting that Christianity has accused God of such a thing. Christians actually love the concept of he11. They lose no sleep over the socalled reality of it. They have no remorse that their God would do such. Do they enjoy this concept that much.... or are they guided to dismiss it?
Im just going to assume that you donít fully understand Christianity and leave it at that, based on the number of Christians that I know that do no such thing.
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  #367  
Old Today, 10:18 AM
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If there is equal evidence (or lack of evidence) in the existence of gods which you reject then why should anyone give more credence to your god?
But at this point, based on your answer to my question below, youíre not able to positively disprove God or any god with evidence?
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Just a question - are you two absolutely 100% positive that God doesnít exist?
.
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Not 100% but pretty close to it.
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  #368  
Old Today, 10:20 AM
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Shameful that Christianity loves this concept. Disgusting that Christianity has accused God of such a thing. Christians actually love the concept of he11. They lose no sleep over the socalled reality of it. They have no remorse that their God would do such. Do they enjoy this concept that much.... or are they guided to dismiss it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spotlite View Post
Im just going to assume that you donít fully understand Christianity and leave it at that, based on the number of Christians that I know that do no such thing.
Throwing my opinion out there -
I kind of think you are both right.
Quote:
Do they enjoy this concept that much.... or are they guided to dismiss it?
I think neither. I think they are so psychologically comfortable that they aren't going there that its really not a place to fear, its really not a threat etc. so therefore much easier to accept without over thinking it.
Quote:
based on the number of Christians that I know that do no such thing
And I would agree. The average Christian doesn't run around doing the fire and brimstone burn in he11 thing. SEE ABOVE as to why they dont.
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  #369  
Old Today, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
I'm with you in spirit but just a comment -
I think there is a place between here -

and here -

- It acknowledges the "we don't know".
- ** It accounts for "what we do know".
- And that is the basis for what we do/don't believe
And in broad terms, is where we as A/As sit and argue/debate from. And it does, in reality, impact this due to the definition of "rational" -



Can't argue with that
A is indeed A, yet we live in a world where we can personally redefine A in the most absurd ways. Then there is the A that is redefined in service of an Agenda, by a consensus of people, unhappy with the original meaning of A. Knowledge has historically been proven to be a fluid state, wisdom comes from that recognition.
I personally don't struggle with A/A's having been one myself. It is only the A/A that is absolutely certain that he/ she is correct, to the point of questioning the intellect of believers, never recognizing that their own position is based on belief.
Intelligent design has been my life's work, I see it in the works of man and I see it the works of Life and this planet that supports it. I observe evolution and see intelligent design, not random mutations. It fascinates me, it humbles me. And I have seen the evolutions of A/A s. some of the finest Preachers I have ever known were reasoned, rational Atheist. I expect, if I live long enough, to see Hal running one of those big TV churches. Lol.
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  #370  
Old Today, 12:00 PM
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Once you assume God then everything is attributable to Him and impossible to disprove that He did it. That guy that used to come on here named Lowjack said his congregation rebuked a hurricane once. I wasn't there but I imagine they were in the path of a hurricane, they prayed and the hurricane turned. To them it was enough proof that their rebuke worked. How did they know it was God or even their God? Strangely, as is often brought up here, God never regrows a lost limb that's prayed for. What's that prove to a believer?

There are way to use ones ability to reason that seem better suited and more in line with the natural world.
If you are praying for potatoes, you'd better have a hoe.
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  #371  
Old Today, 01:43 PM
1gr8bldr 1gr8bldr is online now
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Im just going to assume that you don’t fully understand Christianity and leave it at that, based on the number of Christians that I know that do no such thing.
I have spent 15 years trying to deprogram myself from the teachings I was brought up on. I have read the NT over 1000 times, Even learned to read greek in an effort to see the biased translation errors. I have taken one topic...many times and read through the entire bible several times with one mindset, to see what it says about the subject. I knew the bible so well that I began to see what is in there but more important, what was not. So, I say this to verify that I have studied this topic to extreme degree so that I am confident in my conclusion. Have you or do you just accept traditional teachings? I am not looking for an answer, or to change anyone's mind, but confident no one will say, You spurred me to investigate this. And as you, I'll leave it at that. And to clarify, I'm here because I enjoy discussion. I hope I don't come off as a debater.
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  #372  
Old Today, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
Throwing my opinion out there -
I kind of think you are both right.

I think neither. I think they are so psychologically comfortable that they aren't going there that its really not a place to fear, its really not a threat etc. so therefore much easier to accept without over thinking it.

And I would agree. The average Christian doesn't run around doing the fire and brimstone burn in he11 thing. SEE ABOVE as to why they dont.
I could agree here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1gr8bldr View Post
I have spent 15 years trying to deprogram myself from the teachings I was brought up on. I have read the NT over 1000 times, Even learned to read greek in an effort to see the biased translation errors. I have taken one topic...many times and read through the entire bible several times with one mindset, to see what it says about the subject. I knew the bible so well that I began to see what is in there but more important, what was not. So, I say this to verify that I have studied this topic to extreme degree so that I am confident in my conclusion. Have you or do you just accept traditional teachings? I am not looking for an answer, or to change anyone's mind, but confident no one will say, You spurred me to investigate this. And as you, I'll leave it at that. And to clarify, I'm here because I enjoy discussion. I hope I don't come off as a debater.
And you’re not coming off in an argumentative way. No worries there. I like to discussion over debate myself.
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