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Old 03-29-2018, 10:52 AM
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Default Is pleasing God a sacrifice?

Is pleasing God a sacrifice?
Or is being patient with the world a sacrifice?


Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Is this still valid for Christians... or since Jesus' sacrifice on the cross?

Being a martyr is this what God wants? Or being spiritually sawed off in halfs by the world?

Ideas... on Christian sacrifice?
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:16 PM
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I have a hard time thinking of anyone of note in the NT who was not EAGER to sacrifice.
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Old 03-30-2018, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by gordon 2 View Post
Is pleasing God a sacrifice?
Or is being patient with the world a sacrifice?


Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Is this still valid for Christians... or since Jesus' sacrifice on the cross?

Being a martyr is this what God wants? Or being spiritually sawed off in halfs by the world?

Ideas... on Christian sacrifice?
It is not good for the man to be alone...



And I am persuaded that no matter how much we may think we understand "not good" there is one who understands it perfectly...so that we will never have to.
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Old 03-30-2018, 06:35 AM
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If you receive mercy then you get acknowledgement by default that’s how I read that scripture
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:36 AM
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The folks would sacrifice animals for the covering of sin. That is done with Christ.

God wants to be loved by you. He wants to be worshiped by you. He wants you to love your neighbor - show mercy, compassion, to be just and fair.

Sometimes we just make it more complicated than it has to be.
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Old 03-31-2018, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by gordon 2 View Post
Is pleasing God a sacrifice?
Or is being patient with the world a sacrifice?


Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Is this still valid for Christians... or since Jesus' sacrifice on the cross?

Being a martyr is this what God wants? Or being spiritually sawed off in halfs by the world?

Ideas... on Christian sacrifice?
The question of "what is God after?", what is God seeking...what does God want...?

Well it's something isn't it? I mean...just the question...not even touching upon the particulars (such as they may be to us in answer) is so huge, yet captured in word.
"What does God desire?"

That's enough to send a man upon a quest for right answer (if he believes he answers...before God) into places he most likely never dreamed possible to endure. If he seeks answer as to heart of God, (and what is that question but "what is very deepest in God's heart as motive of desire") he might have to learn there will be a battling in his own heart against a settling for the facile. For to hear the question rightly likewise must initiate the provoking past the facile to stand...in that very heart, where he might see (and even hear) answer. (Who will God show His heart?)

What is "fair trade" amongst those calling themselves by the name of Christ? What is right trade amongst us as brothers? One would think that (or might if he believes in allowance) use of that Name is established of all, and only value. To trade (as it were) in anything else can only be trading in what is de facto of lesser or (but I am persuaded) of no value.

But, as I think we may all be learning...the seeing of a thing does not presumptively mean...we are walking in it. That rubber and road analogy should not be lost...on us. (John 13:17)

Yet...this seems our endless call both to man...and to God "What are you seeing?" And strangely (perhaps) we may even find God asking us each, individually, the same..."What are you seeing?"

If fair trade in Christ is only of Christ...I ask..."Is it fair to look to Christ's doings?" even in this?
Jesus asked two questions, which in presumption by our own noting of proximity could seem similar. (Who of us is not learning to "beware of seems"?)

But (and it is only me asking) again...who of us is also not learning these two questions are poles apart, not alike at all, and so dissimilar in the eternal matters as one is asked to a death...the other posed to life? (And I cannot over stress this is only my seeing)

Who do men say that I am?
Who do you say I am?

The "they say" is full of all conjecture and speculations. (Maybe even very best of guesses)

The "they say" has filled volumes, and tomes, and vast libraries, christian bookshelves (maybe even our own at home) and even online exchanges. It is not to diminish their merit, as it may seem. Trusting brothers, as we see them, and perhaps even learn from them is not to be despised.

But...there is nothing that can forestall that second question. It has come...and comes. And if, as we say we believe our "fair trade" is in Christ, convinced as we may say we are that we are to be sharing Him alone...to life in spirit, we must not shy away from, or be ashamed of His manner.

Who has declared Himself as coming from the very bosom of God? The heart? Who only asks...and speaks even yet to us, from that bosom?

Who asks to find only what may proceed...from there? Only from there. (Where no conjecture, no speculations, no "yes and no", no maybe...has ever proceeded)

Brother, you ask a very good question, if I hear you rightly.

If I hear "What is God's desire"...(even from us...or is it for us...of us?), well I believe that's a far better question than any answer I might fill reams with.

I salute your pursuit of answer. For I have no doubt that question shall prove a help to us all.
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I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out...and mos' probbly, neither of us" Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Great Divide"

Last edited by Israel; 03-31-2018 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 03-31-2018, 08:11 AM
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The question of "what is God after?", what is God seeking...what does God want...?

Well it's something isn't it? I mean...just the question...not even touching upon the particulars (such as they may be to us in answer) is so huge, yet captured in word.
"What does God desire?"

That's enough to send a man upon a quest for right answer (if he believes he answers...before God) into places he most likely never dreamed possible to endure. If he seeks answer as to heart of God, (and what is that question but "what is very deepest in God's heart as motive of desire") he might have to learn there will be a battling in his own heart against a settling for the facile. For to hear the question rightly likewise must initiate the provoking past the facile to stand...in that very heart, where he might see (and even hear) answer. (Who will God show His heart?)

What is "fair trade" amongst those calling themselves by the name of Christ? What is right trade amongst us as brothers? One would think that (or might if he believes in allowance) use of that Name is established of all, and only value. To trade (as it were) in anything else can only be trading in what is de facto of lesser or (but I am persuaded) of no value.

But, as I think we may all be learning...the seeing of a thing does not presumptively mean...we are walking in it. That rubber and road analogy should not be lost...on us. (John 13:17)

Yet...this seems our endless call both to man...and to God "What are you seeing?" And strangely (perhaps) we may even find God asking us each, individually, the same..."What are you seeing?"

If fair trade in Christ is only of Christ...I ask..."Is it fair to look to Christ's doings?" even in this?
Jesus asked two questions, which in presumption by our own noting of proximity could seem similar. (Who of us is not learning to "beware of seems"?)

But (and it is only me asking) again...who of us is also not learning these two questions are poles apart, not alike at all, and so dissimilar in the eternal matters as one is asked to a death...the other posed to life? (And I cannot over stress this is only my seeing)

Who do men say that I am?
Who do you say I am?

The "they say" is full of all conjecture and speculations. (Maybe even very best of guesses)

The "they say" has filled volumes, and tomes, and vast libraries, christian bookshelves (maybe even our own at home) and even online exchanges. It is not to diminish their merit, as it may seem. Trusting brothers, as we see them, and perhaps even learn from them is not to be despised.

But...there is nothing that can forestall that second question. It has come...and comes. And if, as we say we believe our "fair trade" is in Christ, convinced as we may say we are that we are to be sharing Him alone...to life in spirit, we must not shy away from, or be ashamed of His manner.

Who has declared Himself as coming from the very bosom of God? The heart? Who only asks...and speaks even yet to us, from that bosom?

Who asks to find only what may proceed...from there? Only from there. (Where no conjecture, no speculations, no "yes and no", no maybe...has ever proceeded)

Brother, you ask a very good question, if I hear you rightly.

If I hear "What is God's desire"...(even from us...or is it for us...of us?), well I believe that's a far better question than any answer I might fill reams with.

I salute your pursuit of answer. For I have no doubt that question shall prove a help to us all.
As regards sacrifice towards God:



Romans 6:4-8 English Standard Version (ESV)
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free[b] from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.



As regards sacrifice towards man:


Matthew 22:37-40 (NIV)
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
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Old 03-31-2018, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by gordon 2 View Post
As regards sacrifice towards God:



Romans 6:4-8 English Standard Version (ESV)
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free[b] from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.



As regards sacrifice towards man:


Matthew 22:37-40 (NIV)
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Yes.

May we commend them by our lives to men...as not only believable...but true. For God knows the hearts.

Thank you.
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Old 03-31-2018, 10:38 AM
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Yes.

May we commend them by our lives to men...as not only believable...but true. For God knows the hearts.

Thank you.
No need to thank me. I'm a still on the pilgrimage... and thanks for you responses, especially the idea of "me" and "us". GB. If you or anyone else has more imput, by all means...
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Old 03-31-2018, 12:14 PM
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If I may.
I didn't want to venture beyond your question...(which I either heard or misheard) as to motive. Or as to trying to understand why what was being asked...was being asked.

But since you have answered very succinctly in the matter...am I wrong in thinking there already was a form of understanding in you...even as you asked the question?

And so...in the particular matter of sacrifice I had an inkling, although I was pretty careful to steer clear of it in particular...precisely because of that inkling. And it is not lost on me how much else I throw into the pot that can be welcome or not...that's just garnish (if anything, at all)...but I wanted to know who had the beef in mind for the stew...

So, this being the beef, the meat of the matter, I am delighted to see what is being cooked up:


Quote:
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
So, in the matter of sacrifice (at least as we might understand) would we not ask "what does love ever see as sacrifice?"

I am being persuaded it never sees it in itself. It might rightly see it in another...but...love of itself...where would it find in itself to say "Look at what I did for you"? (If that's what we may commonly see as sacrifice...the giving of something of value to another, or for another, to the better for that other)


This is my tired story. I've said it probably a hundred times. Guy falls in love, wants to marry...and in that...wants to get the very best and biggest gem he could ever manage for his beloved. He takes overtime out the wazzoo, maybe even a second or third job.

Finally buys it...and presents it.

What sort of lover would he be, if, when presenting he said "You know I almost fell asleep several times and could have gotten killed at the metal press trying to get money for this"???

No...something's amiss...that guy would be, well...too much like me.

Now...it wouldn't be wrong, inappropriate, or unseemly for the beloved to say "Thank you dear...I can begin to see how much this must have cost you in labors". Nor would it be wrong for a groom's friend to say..."You know, he must really really love you I watched him work like a zombie when he had no strength...just to do this for you".

The Son spoke unflinchingly of what the Father endures in patience, manifesting the unseen patience and devotion...even in His own body. (and what was done to it...with it...against it)

In like manner another has come...to not speak of Himself...but to be given totally to (as Jesus has said) "make known of what is mine"

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

What a perfect unity of humbling in love. The Son speaking for the Father, the Father upholding the Son, for the Spirit being bidden to speak only what upholds the Son...

And we are rightly told "beware of how this One is treated in reception" (my words)...for He has humbled Himself so greatly among you. In being with you...and in you.

Jesus said Himself (and of Himself) Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

It is sobering, no? And rightly so...no? Perhaps even terrible.

The friend who enlightens us to cost, of what truly took place...and takes place...in Jesus Christ on behalf of His bride...God forbid we be found insensitive to His knowing. Or worse...despise it.

But...perhaps I say enough.

And it could be...that if we are aware of "our sacrifice" yet...or still...there is yet a work of love to be done in us.
(And I am liar if I seek to present myself as anything but trembling and flinching clay at the gentlest of touches)
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I ain't the most self aware man, Bobby, but if I met myself in a dark alley, ain't both of us gunna walk out...and mos' probbly, neither of us" Jimmy "Packrat" Soos, "Partners at the Great Divide"

Last edited by Israel; 03-31-2018 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 03-31-2018, 02:37 PM
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If I may.
I didn't want to venture beyond your question...(which I either heard or misheard) as to motive. Or as to trying to understand why what was being asked...was being asked.

But since you have answered very succinctly in the matter...am I wrong in thinking there already was a form of understanding in you...even as you asked the question?

And so...in the particular matter of sacrifice I had an inkling, although I was pretty careful to steer clear of it in particular...precisely because of that inkling. And it is not lost on me how much else I throw into the pot that can be welcome or not...that's just garnish (if anything, at all)...but I wanted to know who had the beef in mind for the stew...

So, this being the beef, the meat of the matter, I am delighted to see what is being cooked up:




So, in the matter of sacrifice (at least as we might understand) would we not ask "what does love ever see as sacrifice?"

I am being persuaded it never sees it in itself. It might rightly see it in another...but...love of itself...where would it find in itself to say "Look at what I did for you"? (If that's what we may commonly see as sacrifice...the giving of something of value to another, or for another, to the better for that other)


This is my tired story. I've said it probably a hundred times. Guy falls in love, wants to marry...and in that...wants to get the very best and biggest gem he could ever manage for his beloved. He takes overtime out the wazzoo, maybe even a second or third job.

Finally buys it...and presents it.

What sort of lover would he be, if, when presenting he said "You know I almost fell asleep several times and could have gotten killed at the metal press trying to get money for this"???

No...something's amiss...that guy would be, well...too much like me.

Now...it wouldn't be wrong, inappropriate, or unseemly for the beloved to say "Thank you dear...I can begin to see how much this must have cost you in labors". Nor would it be wrong for a groom's friend to say..."You know, he must really really love you I watched him work like a zombie when he had no strength...just to do this for you".

The Son spoke unflinchingly of what the Father endures in patience, manifesting the unseen patience and devotion...even in His own body. (and what was done to it...with it...against it)

In like manner another has come...to not speak of Himself...but to be given totally to (as Jesus has said) "make known of what is mine"

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

What a perfect unity of humbling in love. The Son speaking for the Father, the Father upholding the Son, for the Spirit being bidden to speak only what upholds the Son...

And we are rightly told "beware of how this One is treated in reception" (my words)...for He has humbled Himself so greatly among you. In being with you...and in you.

Jesus said Himself (and of Himself) Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.

It is sobering, no? And rightly so...no? Perhaps even terrible.

The friend who enlightens us to cost, of what truly took place...and takes place...in Jesus Christ on behalf of His bride...God forbid we be found insensitive to His knowing. Or worse...despise it.

But...perhaps I say enough.

And it could be...that if we are aware of "our sacrifice" yet...or still...there is yet a work of love to be done in us.
(And I am liar if I seek to present myself as anything but trembling and flinching clay at the gentlest of touches)
Quote (And it could be...that if we are aware of "our sacrifice" yet...or still...there is yet a work of love to be done in us.) end quote.

I think this is a correct way in our loving affections towards God as it involves no sacrifice perhaps, but I'm not sure it is a fact in our loving affections towards friends and foe where we honor sacrifices in both relationships.
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Old 04-01-2018, 05:43 AM
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Quote (And it could be...that if we are aware of "our sacrifice" yet...or still...there is yet a work of love to be done in us.) end quote.

I think this is a correct way in our loving affections towards God as it involves no sacrifice perhaps, but I'm not sure it is a fact in our loving affections towards friends and foe where we honor sacrifices in both relationships.
Can you make a bit more clear, please?

Are you saying we mostly don't...but possibly we should?


Or simply, we shouldn't?

It's difficult to see you meaning the second.

This song has kept coming to me recently...I had to both finally surrender to watching it, and reading the lyrics:



And I couldn't help but see it in relationship to this:

Rev 1:10: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,


12: Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw...

13: ... was One like the Son of Man...

17: When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last...
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:15 PM
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Gordon, I have been thinking of this often relative to those things we discuss.

For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
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Old 04-17-2018, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by gordon 2 View Post
Is pleasing God a sacrifice?
Or is being patient with the world a sacrifice?


Hosea 6:6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Is this still valid for Christians... or since Jesus' sacrifice on the cross?

Being a martyr is this what God wants? Or being spiritually sawed off in halfs by the world?

Ideas... on Christian sacrifice?
Do we owe/does God command/is God worthy of obedience ("I desire mercy"; signified in the sin offering) and worship ("acknowledgment of God"; signified in the burnt offering)?


Does Christ's obedience lead us to obey?
Does Christ's substitutionary atonement lead us to worship?
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:49 PM
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Hebrews 13:15

15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:30 PM
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Hebrews 13:15

15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.
Yes! To encounter what (Who) is to us truly praise worthy generates what is wonderfully irresistible. The truth coming back out from us, being spoken to Him. Oh, how He loves...Jesus!

Jesus...coming out from the dirt...and the dirt is changing.
From hard pan to softest and most easily entreated soil to receive even more, that life in greater measure...might spring forth.

Even (dare we believe? rather, dare we not?) springs of living water!
From once dry ground.
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:09 AM
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Hebrews 13:15

15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.
This resounds in my heart as I have recently encountered that His name is, to some Christians, synonym of "God's house ".

In His house (our's in Christ), sacrifice has a new dictionary.... me thinks.

I also think that a study of "servant" is not far off for me.
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