; A First-timer's Bow Setup and Tuning Thread - Page 3 - Georgia Outdoor News Forum
 


GON Magazine | GON Classifieds

Go Back   Georgia Outdoor News Forum > Archery and Primitive Skills > DIY Archery


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 02-12-2015, 09:13 PM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Alright guys. I took the one full twist out of the control cable (at the top again).

I put the bow back on the draw board to check the cam sync. As expected, the bottom cam was now behind the top again.

Here's a pic of the bottom draw stop when the top draw stop is barely touching the cable (gap shown is right at 1/8")



I then decided to apply the suggestions Kris gave regarding the rest cord before moving on to shooting it since I didn't want to deal with any issues again like yesterday.

I put a lot of tension on the cord to help stretch it. Then re-tightened it.

I then took a couple shots... I was now getting even worse low tears... As I was about to take a third shot, I discovered what the cause was. The rest slid completely up. The elevation adjustment screw had been slowly working it's way loose, and had finally loosened enough to allow it to raise up to the upper limit.

After checking the level of the rest, the level of the arrow in relationship to the nocking point, and making sure all fasteners were securely fastened, I fired four more shots.

All four were left slightly high tears.



Did the rest changes I had to make perhaps reset all the other changes made? Last time I was getting that tear, I put one full twist in the left yoke. Same move here, or should I do something else?
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-13-2015, 01:53 PM
Kris87's Avatar
Kris87 Kris87 is offline
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Watkinsville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

How much is the cam leaning now when you lay the arrow flush on the left side of it? Where does the shaft cross the string. I had a bow last year that when I made changes to the cam sync, it also gave it a left tear. Never had seen that, and it didn't really make any sense to me. But besides that, how much lean have you induced up to this point? Check your centershot one more time too.
__________________
Backyard Bambi Bomber
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-13-2015, 02:13 PM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

That's actually something I was going to ask you about. I noticed that the top draw stop at full draw was to the left of the cable. In other words, the stop wasn't centered on the cable when it touched it like I would have expected. It almost looked like it would completely miss the cable and pass by it if it was just a hair more over to the left.

Out of curiosity, after I took the bow of the draw board, I did what you just mentioned, and placed an arrow flush along the left side of the top cam with the bow at brace. It never crossed/intersected the string. It just ran parallel to the left side of the string.

I can't remember for sure if I did this again last night after taking that one full twist out of the control cable. However, I know I did this after putting the one full twist into the control cable (and possibly after the one full twist into the left yoke).

Either way, I'll check that and the center shot again this evening.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-13-2015, 04:30 PM
Kris87's Avatar
Kris87 Kris87 is offline
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Watkinsville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

If your shaft isn't intersecting the string at all, then you just need to dial in some prelean. That will clean up that nock left travel. Its also a reason your top stop is sitting on the left side of the cable. When your cam is straight at brace, it rotates this way during the draw cycle /(looking at it from behind). So by leaning the cam just a little this way \ at brace, it will move to this position | at full draw.

Hopefully that makes sense. If you want to understand why the cam moves. I'll explain that more. But for now, just dial in some twists in the left yoke, and out of the right, and it'll head in the right direction.
__________________
Backyard Bambi Bomber
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 02-13-2015, 04:51 PM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So is there a specific place I should look to get the arrow to intersect the string in order to know I have a enough prelean?

If when I check it tonight, the arrow is in fact running parallel to the string, and not intersecting it, what would be your starting recommended number of twists to add to the left and remove from the right (bearing in mind that I already put one full twist into the left)?
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-13-2015, 09:36 PM
Kris87's Avatar
Kris87 Kris87 is offline
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Watkinsville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

There's no right answer. Just dial it in until that left tear is gone. Yours isn't going to require much, which is a good thing.
__________________
Backyard Bambi Bomber
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 02-13-2015, 09:40 PM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Decided to go for it, take it slow, and see what I could figure out.

I first put an arrow flush against the left side of the top cam. Sure enough the arrow was not even starting to intersect the string until near the string stop.



I rationalized in my head that if I had already added one full twist in the left yoke (post 45 for those keeping score at home), that my first move should be removing one full twist from the right. So I did that, and then checked the cam sync. The top cam was now ahead by only 1/16". Perfect! However, when I shot it through paper, I got a similar tear as before except to the right. OK, no problem. Maybe I should have just tried removing a half twist instead of a full one. I added back a half twist to the right yoke. Checked the cam sync again, and the top cam was back to being ahead by about an 1/8". However, that seemed to have gotten rid of the left and right tears. All that was left was a tiny bit of high tear.



The shots above were all at 5 feet. I decided to try a couple at 10 feet. As you can see, the shots at 10 feet seemed to amplify the high tear.



Would a rest/nock change get rid of that, or even just a turn of one of the limb bolts?
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 02-13-2015, 09:41 PM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris87 View Post
There's no right answer. Just dial it in until that left tear is gone. Yours isn't going to require much, which is a good thing.
Our posts must have crossed paths. You're right, it didn't take much (just a half twist removed from the right yoke) to get rid of the left tear.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 02-13-2015, 09:45 PM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Forgot to mention I checked the center shot measurement, and it is still at 3/4".

Also, here's a photo showing the present cam prelean after removing the half twist from the right yoke. Arrow now intersects the string around the D-loop.

Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 02-13-2015, 10:16 PM
Kris87's Avatar
Kris87 Kris87 is offline
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Watkinsville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Good job. I wouldn't mess with the yokes or cables much now. Your back wall should be pretty firm, you don't have a lot of cam lean, and that's a good tear. From here, raise the rest a skosh or take a quarter turn OUT of the top limb bolt. U basically need the loop to move down a hair or the rest up a hair. Pick your poison.
__________________
Backyard Bambi Bomber
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 02-14-2015, 09:54 PM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Back at it. Pick my poison, huh? OK, well I figured the easiest option would be to take the quarter turn out of the top limb bolt. So it I did that. That was easy thanks to the marks I made on the limb bolts during my first step of this process (post 14).



Shot some bare shafts...



Nice.

However, not being one to leave well enough alone, I decided to reverse that change, and try the other poison. I figure this whole process is as much a means to an end (that end being a well-tuned bow) as it is a learning experience. So I put that quarter turn back into the top limb bolt, and slightly raised the rest (and made sure to sufficiently tighten the elevation screw this time..)

Again shot some bare shafts...



Sweet.

As you can see I shot three at 5 feet and another three at 10 feet, and got several bullet holes (I'm sure that my form/grip varies slightly from shot to shot, so I'm OK with the slight imperfections in those holes).

I'm guessing this is good enough to proceed?
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 02-18-2015, 08:54 AM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Imagine my frustration the next day when I shot the bow again, and was getting strange tears again (don't even remember which direction at this point). Anyways, here's a really long post about it.

After a couple days of strange paper tears, making changes to address them and increasing frustation, I decided to start over, and put everything back pretty much the way it was from the box..

Checked all my specs (DW, DL, cam sync, axle-to-axle, brace height, tiller). Everything was in spec except DL was a smidge long and the top cam was ahead by a bit more than 1/8". I put the full twist into the control cable again, and that brought the bottom cam ever so slightly ahead again. I then put one half twist into each yoke of the buss cable. This advanced the top just enough so that it was ahead by the thickness of a credit card. Perfect.

I double checked all my specs again, and everything was on now including DL. My top cam pre-lean was set so that an arrow placed on the left side of the cam intersected the string right around the D-loop. I set my arrow running through the center of the Berger hole (I believe I set it to level/90 degrees to the string), and center shot around 3/4".

At this point, I decided to install my sight and peep sight before shooting since I figured it would help me ensure I was always aiming at the same spot, and could help me confirm I was anchoring the same (in order to have my peep and sight align). I wondered if my anchor could have been unknowingly raising and lowering between shots causing different tears. I placed the peep sight in the string, and temporarily tied around it with nock thread so it would come flying out until I was sure of where I wanted it.

Stepped back to 5', and fired a shot. Bullet-hole. Stepped back farther. What looked like a bullet-hole at distance had a very slight right-tear.

Everything on the bow was in spec. My arrows were the correct spine. I was aligning my peep with my sight, and making sure to consistently anchor the same. Therefore, I figured it had to be my grip.

Having read the following, right tear - add pressure on the thumb side / left tear - add pressure to the outer edge, I stepped back again, and added very slight pressure to the thumb. That slight right tear became a bullet-hole. I then stepped back farther. Bullet-hole.

Final analysis: It's been repeatedly said here that good and consistent form is essential when shooting bare shafts. There seems to be so many factors that can result in a bare shaft tearing paper including grip and anchor. How else could I be shooting bullet-holes one day and not the next after changing nothing to the tune?

After over-analyzing just about everything along the way , I guess my questions are: Is it correct to say that a bow can be tuned according to the manufacturer's specs, but ultimately it must then be tuned to a specific individual and his way of shooting (within reason)? If so, at what point do you attribute imperfect arrow flight to the shooter and not the bow so as to not start 'chasing your tail' changing the bow?
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 02-18-2015, 04:23 PM
Kris87's Avatar
Kris87 Kris87 is offline
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Watkinsville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewskis View Post
After over-analyzing just about everything along the way , I guess my questions are: Is it correct to say that a bow can be tuned according to the manufacturer's specs, but ultimately it must then be tuned to a specific individual and his way of shooting (within reason)? If so, at what point do you attribute imperfect arrow flight to the shooter and not the bow so as to not start 'chasing your tail' changing the bow?
Yes and no. You're understanding it the same way I believe to be the correct way(which is only my thinking). I believe you set it up to have the best power stroke possible, accounting for all the variables. But then as you stated, you have the shooter involved. You have high grips, low grips, face pressure, different releases, etc....all that stuff makes a difference. So then I say you make small changes to try to account for those variables at the end. I don't make wholesale changes to account for somebody's bad grip. I then try to have them work on that variable rather than moving the bow's specs all over the place. Its not a science for sure....more of an art.
__________________
Backyard Bambi Bomber
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 02-19-2015, 07:36 AM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Makes sense. I gotta say, I was pretty close to calling you the other evening, admitting defeat, and finding out when you could sort things out.

However, during my frustations, I was reading a lot here, and came across several posts (namely, this one from when you were tuning JT's bow, and this one from your write up on the Elite E32) that reminded me how the bow can be in tune, and the shooter could be the reason for the results (especially with bare shafts!). As they say, at a certain point 'it's not the arrow, it's the indian'.

I haven't really shot a lot in the past couple of months, and I'm wondering if that has contributed to my form breaking down (at least to a point where it's not consistent and repeatable). Having come to these realizations, and not feeling confident in the adjustments I had been making to the bow while I was 'chasing my tail' trying to fix tears, I reversed all those changes, and got the bow back to recommended specs.

Working on my form the past couple of days has yielded consistent bullet-holes through paper at various distances, and understanding why has contributed to a lot more confidence.

However, that leads to my next question. I remember watching one of GRIV's 'Thing A Week' videos on paper tuning recently where he said finally getting a bullet hole through paper, doesn't mean the bow is perfectly tuned, but that it means you're ready to start tuning the bow. The arrow is flying straight from the bow, but not necessarily grouping the best it can.

I've read about creep tuning, torque tuning, french tuning, modified french tuning, walk-back tuning, broadhead tuning, fletched with bareshaft tuning, etc.

What form of tuning you recommend moving onto now?
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 02-19-2015, 08:20 AM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Regarding tying in my peep, I have a few questions.
  • Is there any advantage to tying the peep in with two separate knots (one above and one below) instead of tying one knot above and then weaving it down the string around the peep and then tying the second knot with one continuous piece of thread?

  • I recall you showing me how to tie the knots, but I can't recall how it's done. Is that the pull-through method Pasinthrough showed in this thread ? Or is it the standard closed end archery loop you mentioned, and would it be hard to explain how to tie it?

  • I noticed that the string is very tightly twisted right above where I had to separate the string, and insert the peep. Is this OK, or should a twist be taken out of the string before inserting and tying in the peep?

    Left - Faktor 34 - Right - CS34:


Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 02-19-2015, 09:56 AM
Kris87's Avatar
Kris87 Kris87 is offline
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Watkinsville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

As far as the next tuning step, I typically don't do much more other than shoot a fletched and bareshaft at some type of distance. 20 yards is a long ways for most guys to shoot one, as I have mentioned many times. You can work your way back if you want. Of all the methods you mentioned, walk back tuning is the only method I really have ever done, but rarely see the need if my bow is tuned ok and I pay attention to my sight bubble. If your bow is shooting a bareshaft well, and you have sufficient fletching, its going to shoot broadheads like darts.

As far as the peep...everyone has their own preferred methods. Some I tie with one piece and weave it through, but generally I just tie two separate knots, one above and one below. I rarely even tie anything around the peep any longer. You just don't want to pinch the string down too much around the peep, as it can cause rotation issues. I don't know the names of the loops I use. I use the same method using one piece and serve back over itself while unwrapping. I don't use two pieces and wrap over a loop and pull it back through. Just an extra step that I don't have to use.
__________________
Backyard Bambi Bomber
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 02-19-2015, 09:59 AM
pasinthrough's Avatar
pasinthrough pasinthrough is offline
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: North Augusta
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

I like the two knots better than the one. If you need to move your peep a little, you don't need to untie it all the way to do it. Peeps usually stay where you put them.

Congrats on doing all this yourself. It's the only way you'll learn.
__________________
Equal Opportunity Impaler
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 02-19-2015, 07:13 PM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

That's a good reason for the two knots, Pasinthrough. And thanks. Glad to be learning how to do all of this, and couldn't be learning it without y'all's help.

Kris, I read today about back serving and it looked a lot like what you showed me and described earlier. Looks like it's another way of accomplishing the same knot in Pasinthrough's video without the braided loop.

I'm anxious to see how my bare shafts fly with fletched at distance, but I'm gonna have to wait for this weather to improve first.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 02-20-2015, 07:54 AM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris87 View Post
I pay attention to my sight bubble.
Speaking of the sight bubble, which obviously helps with accuracy and consistency, I learned something that perhaps many of y'all already know, but if you didn't here it is.

I noticed the need to confirm the sight bubble level is actually showing true level when the sight arm and bow are plumb (assuming you like to hold the bow plumb when shooting). I believe this is referred to as 2nd axis leveling. Anyways, the Black Gold sights have two screws holding the level in place, and allow for adjustment. I had removed the level temporarily to swap out the sight ring, but I guess it'd be good to confirm this even from the manufacturer or previous owner if bought used.

Fortunately, this is easy to do using a small torpedo level held plumb forwards and backwards and side to side against the sight arm while adjusting the sight level to match.

Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 02-20-2015, 10:11 AM
Kris87's Avatar
Kris87 Kris87 is offline
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Watkinsville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

That's the correct way to do it. I normally check my level with a level on the sight mounting bracket as well as one off the limb pockets to have two points of reference. You won't notice much left/right misses at close distance, but it starts to grow exponentially at distance.
__________________
Backyard Bambi Bomber
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 02-20-2015, 10:12 AM
Kris87's Avatar
Kris87 Kris87 is offline
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Watkinsville
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Most right handed shooters cant the bow to the right, or in a clockwise rotation.
__________________
Backyard Bambi Bomber
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 02-27-2015, 12:22 PM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

OK, thanks for confirming, Kris.

Weather's supposed to nicer soon, so I'm looking forward to getting out and checking my arrow flight, namely bareshafts with fletched, at distance. In the meantime, since arrows have such a huge impact on how/if a bow tunes, I thought I'd post what I went with arrow-wise for this hunting setup.

I decided to go long and heavy. The decision to go long was based on the broadhead I hunt with - Ramcats. They have flown and performed perfectly during my short time using them. However, I was having contact issues between my broadheads and the riser/shelf last season if I forgot to precisely index the blades a certain way (see this thread for more info). Therefore, I decided to eliminate that issue, and get a longer arrow. Doing so gave me the added benefit of a heavier arrow. I ended up with the following:

Easton Bloodline 330
30.25" carbon-to-carbon
2" Blazer vanes w/ 1 degree right-hand offset
Easton HP insert
Nockturnal H nock

I plugged my current bow setups (Faktor 34 and CS 34 - 29.5" DL - 55 lb. DW) into the OnTarget2 software, and found I can shoot this arrow with either a 100 grain or 125 grain head without a significant impact on spine (0.012).

With a 100 grain head I have a F.O.C. of 10.00% and K.E. of 62.04. Finished arrow weight - 430
With a 125 grain head I have a F.O.C. of 12.23% and K.E. of 61.25. Finished arrow weight - 455

I don't have a chronograph, so I'm not sure on what kind of speeds I'll be getting with this arrow and my setups. I also don't know how accurate those internet calculators are, but I tried a couple out and they were saying between 265 to 275 FPS depending on if I go with a 100 grain or 125 grain head.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 02-27-2015, 12:30 PM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

BTW, I highly recommend Jerry at South Shore Archery for arrows. He tests every shaft, and finds the stiff side. He then marks them accordingly so that they can be repeatedly fletched the same way. This helps a lot with nock tuning. He also cuts, squares, and preps the shafts. In the case of the Bloodlines, which have factory cresting, he removes the factory cresting which I hear from several people can make it hard to re-fletch. He also gives the option of different wraps and lengths if you don't want to do this yourself.

I've ordered two sets of arrows from him during the past year, and all of the above was included by him for just a negligible amount more than I would have paid for plain-jane, off-the-shelf arrows from somewhere else.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 03-11-2015, 08:16 AM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Alright, finally able to do some shooting last evening.

But before getting to that, I'll add that as previously mentioned a few weeks ago I had been getting a slight right tear. I was able to get rid of it by applying a bit more thumb-side pressure to the grip. However, I found that this was something I just couldn't get used to doing over and over again. I felt like I had a pretty good grip, so I decided to make a small change to the bow. I took a half twist out of the left yoke and put a half twist into the right. After doing this, I found that I could now grip the bow as I normally would, and no longer get that right tear. I forgot to check the bow specs and cam pre-lean afterwards, but did confirm the cam timing was still perfect. I felt that was a fairly insignificant change that wouldn't affect the tune.

Fast-forward back to last night when I was finally able to confirm everything at longer distance. I started out shooting through paper just to make sure everything was still good. Got some fairly good holes at 5, 8, 12 feet.



I then shot a bareshaft with a fletched at 5 yards.



Based on what I'd seen so far, I decided to head outside, and start shooting bareshafts and fletched arrows at 20 yards.





Honestly, I was kinda surprised. I guess I was expecting to see at least more variation in nock direction between the bareshafts and fletched (there was an ever so slight nock left with the bareshafts).

Not one to trust one sample, I decided to try it again.





Finally, what I had been waiting for happened. A bareshaft that didn't fly true. I removed that arrow, and shot it again after making a slight change to my form.



The result was better, but obviously still showing signs of something slightly off. So I made another slight change, and re-shot that same arrow.



Bingo! This was a good reminder for me of how there's little tolerance for bad form when you're shooting bareshafts downrange. A bareshaft will not lie to you. If you have a problem/inconsistency in your form, it is going to show.

As I mentioned before, I have not been shooting much since the season ended a couple months ago. Obviously, I was/am a little rusty in my form. I suppose this emphasizes the need for regular practice in order to ingrain a repeatable pre-shot routine.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 03-11-2015, 08:51 AM
Brewskis Brewskis is offline
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canton
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Afraid of having my feelings hurt by shooting a bareshaft any farther than 20 yards, I decided to shoot the fletched arrows at 25 yards and then 30 yards just to see what was happening. Here's a few pairs I shot a those distances.

25 yards:


30 yards:




As you can see I had a couple pairs at 30 yards that impacted right with each other, but with one arrow nock-left. Although I'm not always getting nock left, my 'misses' are consistently nock left (fletched and bareshaft). Not sure if this is attributable to form, or if there's a change I should make to my tune?

I'm also interested to find out how flight would have been affected with a broadhead on the front instead of a field point. I suppose that will be upcoming. I would have tried it last night, but I was shooting 125 grain FPs and have not bought any 125 grain Ramcats yet (actually haven't been able to find them at a local store, so I'll probably have to order some online). I'll post up results of that when I'm able to test it.

In the meantime, if there's any feedback/tips from the resident experts here on the results shown above, I'd be glad to hear it. Whereas overall I'm pleased with the results so far, I'm a first-timer at this, and hesitant to call the tune good.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004 Georgia Outdoor News, Inc.Ad Management by RedTyger