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  #26  
Old 03-16-2014, 10:37 AM
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agree 100% tmj!! too many variables to put most of the weight on the gun and its pattern
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  #27  
Old 03-16-2014, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .60 caliber buckshot View Post
With conventional small buckshot, (1, 00, 000), penetration without a concentrated core pattern is a recipe for wounded and lost game. Which is why I find the "pattern does not matter" attitude of many buckshot users to be appalling.

That most factory buckshot is formed from soft lead does not help pattern or penetration.
Why waste your time being appalled at what other hunters do if they are not putting people at risk and not breaking the law?

Lots of hunting and fishing practices carry greater risk of lost game than my preferred practices, but if other sportsmen are safe and legal and having a good time, then more power to them. Who are we to judge?

The PETA types are a bigger threat to hunting and fishing than safe and legal sportsman who occasionally lose an animal. "Holier than thou" sportsman who pretend to have the moral high ground are a threat too, especially when they push for their personal ethical views codified and enforced by bigger government.
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  #28  
Old 03-17-2014, 06:45 AM
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Yes, I will admit, you can spend alot of time checking your pattern, I also think you can get too tight of a pattern as well, in my early years, most of my deer were killed with regular 2 3/4 00 and improved cylinder.
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  #29  
Old 03-21-2014, 06:41 AM
.60 caliber buckshot .60 caliber buckshot is offline
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Excellent example of why patterning buckshot loads is vitally important to deer hunters. This particular Gun/Load/Choke combination is obviously lacking in effective pattern density much beyond 20 yards!

With a different choke constriction the picture could be very different!





Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnSmokeer View Post
Done! But, not with my 12 gauge with the fixed bored choke.

I used my 20 gauge, 22" vent rib barrel, that uses short little screw-in choke tubes.

I put in the "FULL" choke tube and shot Federal 3" magnum 20 ga. buckshot, #2 buck (the largest size I can find at most retail locations). That's an 18-pellet load.

RESULTS on PATTERN (shooting at large sheets of white paper) and PENETRATION (shooting at a baffle stack of 3/4" soft pine boards, spaced about an inch apart from each other .



25 yds pattern: way too wide. Over 24" and beyond the edges of my target paper. Gaps in the pattern the size of a football. 15 out of 18 pellets landed on the poster-board paper. Only "one" pellet would have hit an 8" circle around my aim point.

25 yards penetration: weak. Pellets penetrated two of the 0.75" pine boards and bounced off the third.


50 feet- pattern: better. 17 out of 18 landed in a 20" circle, and "four" were in the 8" center kill zone. So IF my pellets had sufficient penetration, I'd say this pattern would be OK for deer hunting. But it's only 50 feet! I expected this kind of pattern at 25 or 35 yards.

50 feet-- penetration: same lack of penetration. Two boards totaling 1.5" of soft pine wood got penetrated, but the next board in line was just dented.

30 feet pattern: Now THIS gave a pretty tight pattern, but man is it close. Ridiculously close. Spitting distance, it seemed like. The pattern was about 8" wide. So all 18 pellets hit together in group the size of a canteloupe.

30 feet penetration: Still unimpressive. They drilled through 1.5" of soft wood (I shot both the stack of 3/4" boards and another test -shot at some 2x8 lumber (not pressure treated). In comparison, I shot my 3.3" barreled compact 9mm at this same wood, and it went through 4.5" of wood and embedded itself in the last board for a total of nearly 5 inches (hollowpoint, but it didn't expand with a plugged nose).

BOTTOM LINE: My shotgun throw much wider patterns than I expected, and while I knew that #2 buckshot (only .27 caliber) was only throwing about as much lead as a .22 short, I just expected more penetration.

Pics later. They're in my phone with a million others and I don't feel like sorting them out right now.

Last edited by .60 caliber buckshot; 01-18-2015 at 08:43 PM.
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  #30  
Old 03-21-2014, 07:01 AM
.60 caliber buckshot .60 caliber buckshot is offline
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Default "heres why i think a "pattern" does not really matter"

Perhaps this earlier post will provide some context for your position:


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Originally Posted by DogHunter4Life View Post
i shoot 3 inch OO buck and have a extra full choke and i've killed a few over 100 steps running dogs..probably more luck than anything but if I was still hunting I wouldn't try one over 50 yards, but dog hunting as long as I can see the horns i dont care how far he is as long as its a safe shot (i've shot 5 times at one over 200 yards)--->i just couldnt stand him not at least being shot at
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Originally Posted by DogHunter4Life View Post
heres why i think a "pattern" does not really matter

how many true dog hunters out there get those nice and stopped poses at 20 or 30 steps?? not many.. so why would you pattern a gun when almost none of your shots are like they are when you are patterning your gun?? everything comes into effect...wind, rain, humidity, deer speed, top of box shooting downward or shooting on a level, bushes or trees in the way, full out sprint or trotting, and 10,000 more conditions....

my point is that to me it is more important how that particular person feels and shoots with his gun in the field than just saying i put 9 of 12 shot in a pie plate at 40 yards... just my 2 cents!!

another thing that annoys me (i'm sure i'll get bashed on this one too) is all these folks wanting to take clean ethical shots dog hunting.. geez folks.. maybe 10% of all dog hunting shots are ethical.. i know nobody wants to wound a deer but if you wait on complete ethical shots, you may not ever shoot!!
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  #31  
Old 03-21-2014, 07:17 AM
.60 caliber buckshot .60 caliber buckshot is offline
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Pattern testing can provide a basis for having two different buckshot loads with you. Depending on the cover, you would then have the choice of using the wider patterning load or the tighter patterning - longer range load.



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Originally Posted by outside13 View Post
Yes, I will admit, you can spend alot of time checking your pattern, I also think you can get too tight of a pattern as well, in my early years, most of my deer were killed with regular 2 3/4 00 and improved cylinder.
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  #32  
Old 03-23-2014, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .60 caliber buckshot View Post
Pattern testing can provide a basis for having two different buckshot loads with you. Depending on the cover, you would then have the choice of using the wider patterning load or the tighter patterning - longer range load.
so your going to keep several different shells in your pocket and when you see the deer run across the road you will 1st decide buck or a doe 2nd decide if it has forks (depending on club) and 3rdly decide what the distance is and then finally decide which shell to put in your gun??
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  #33  
Old 03-24-2014, 07:08 AM
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Naw, for me I just like to know what will give me the best all around pattern out to 40-45 yds. But I do carry a couple extra chokes along with me, do to the fact I have hunted places that you would be lucky to get a 30yd. shot and then would be in clear cuts and thinned planted pines later, but I think probably any gun with a modified choke shooting 00 with shots around the 40 yd.,mark would be just fine.
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  #34  
Old 03-24-2014, 08:59 AM
.60 caliber buckshot .60 caliber buckshot is offline
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Default Getting back on topic:

What size circle would you choose to represent the vital zone of a deer for the purpose of pattern testing?

And:

When pattern testing your Shotgun/Choke/Buckshot combination - what would you consider to be the minimum number of hits, with your favorite buckshot pellet size, needed in that vital zone target to represent a reliable quick kill?

Last edited by .60 caliber buckshot; 03-24-2014 at 03:10 PM.
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  #35  
Old 03-24-2014, 03:49 PM
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Not sure if you're asking me or not, but I'll answer for myself, I use a sheet of plywood and staple two sheets of poster paper to it, then draw a 24 inch circle in the middle, then measure off 40 yds., and shoot. My two loads will put every pellet in that circle, as for pellets in vitals, 3-4 00 or 000 at 40-45 yds. will do just fine.
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  #36  
Old 03-24-2014, 04:00 PM
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Also knowing how my gun patterns, I've only had a few that I put the whole load of buckshot in the chest area, a big difference between controlled conditions and reel world shooting in the woods with them darting all over.
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  #37  
Old 03-25-2014, 08:48 PM
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I used to use (years ago) a dog feed sack turned sideways to simulate a deer. I patterned it at 50 60 and 75. Winchester XX in black box used to be the best. No white buffer crap came out either like federals.

My dad always said shoot till you couldn't see them anymore. Within reason of course which was inside 75 but try them over that of it was a biggun! Guy my age now we were teens then had a 20ga that would kill the crap out of one at a 100yds he did it several times. It was like a model before an 870 or so. Have to dig to find model. Wasn't long barrel either. 26" I think.

Just was awesome. Had a Springfield pump that did same but was a 12ga and would kill one at a 100yd. Those are freak guns. Some used to use Brownings with 32" barrels for extended shots also.

Try the feed sack. It works. Dog hunting used to be so much fun. My kid and my nephews will never know. It's just not the same anymore.

Good luck
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  #38  
Old 03-25-2014, 08:50 PM
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By that I mean say 9 or so out of 15 from 00 hitting it solid where a deers vitals would be. Or number 1's you would want more at best. Don't expect 13 out of 15 to be there at 75 yds is what I'm saying. It is also possible to have to tight a choke it will make buckshot cross each other right after leaving the barrel.

Copper plated is the way to go. They don't dissipate when they hit bone like lead buckshot.
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  #39  
Old 03-30-2014, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Headsortails View Post
Are you saying that 25 % of deer shot at are missed or unrecovered?
Need to find another sport.. Like Golf. That way if you are only 75% you won't be wounding animals only to die a slow, agonizing death and the meat never being utilized.

Fishing? Miss one.. No harm, no foul.

If 75% was the best I could do, I would just quit!
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  #40  
Old 03-30-2014, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Big7 View Post
Need to find another sport.. Like Golf. That way if you are only 75% you won't be wounding animals only to die a slow, agonizing death and the meat never being utilized.

Fishing? Miss one.. No harm, no foul.

If 75% was the best I could do, I would just quit!
You must not dog hunt much is only thing I have to say. 75% is an outstanding number for the way we run down here and using shotgun only. 3 out of 4 is good even still hunting. These deer are usually running and usually 20-75 yards away. I'll take that any year. Shoot most of the time id like to have 4 chances to shoot. Any real dog hunter knows you kill some, you wound some, and you flat out miss some. If you can't stand it, then don't go or don't pull the trigger!!
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  #41  
Old 03-31-2014, 07:38 AM
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DH4L, you are right, it happens to all, rifle,bow,dog hunting, people miss for one reason or another, I would hope anyone who misses one, does all they can do to find the animal, and finish the job as quickly as they can, I personally think you owe that to the animal and sport. Again, I am no expert by any means, I have just spent the time to test my guns with different loads and chokes to get the best patterns I can within my determined ranges, be it shotgun or rifle, and I use that info to determine my maximum ranges under controlled conditions, because we all know it's not the same as real world conditions.
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  #42  
Old 03-31-2014, 08:48 AM
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what DH4L is saying I think is that this is little different than shooting a deer standing still. Yes the occasional deer will jump out stand then run, hopefully you get a shot while standing. More than likely these deer are at a run. Sometimes all you can see is a flash, and I am not exaggerating that. For instance a big buck can run so fast but so low it will amaze you at how low they can get. The only way I can explain this is go dog hunting and have one come by very close at full speed. Most are still at a good run. This is like shooting birds instead of still hunting. The same theory applies. At times you have to learn to lead the shot according to the varibles given. No one is better than 75% on average shooting birds and seriously its nearly the same thing. You pattern buckshot in a gun to see what it shoots the best is correct but just because you can hit 10 out of 15 pellets in a circle at 50yds doesn't mean your going to hit a running target in the shoulder for a dead kill. Sometimes you have to wait for the deer to clear trees, trucks, sometimes even people before shooting so that you have a clear target/shot. My point is that there are a lot of variables in shooting a running deer. The good shots seem to be gone. My grandpa shot them with a 22mag running. In the head. I am not exaggerating. Anyone here in my home town knows it. It happened a lot. Sure he missed a few but he was an exceptional shot. Its not even legal now and for a good reason also. Just try and imagine shooting a moving target first before criticizing a guy for asking. Its very different from target scenarios unless you have been there in the heat of the moment so to speak.

I don't mean that bad in anyway or directed negatively towards any person.

Dog hunting is something everyone should try. Some say not but I have seen a few converted that said it. Dog hunting was a tradition that is way different now than it was years ago. It used to be very laid back, fun, and used not to cost an arm and leg. Now days its trucks, guns, radios, tracking collars, etc. Not all of that is bad. GPS collars are outstanding, wish I had them years ago. The sound of a pack of hounds coming to you, the breaking of brush, and then......a 40 pound yearling pops out is nearly enough to stop your heart. You were all excited just to say hey if you only had a rack. Just wishing you had just had a big buck pop out instead. Its a rush.
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  #43  
Old 03-31-2014, 12:15 PM
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The quote below is an example of the rhetorical technique known as reductio ad absurdum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DogHunter4Life View Post
so your going to keep several different shells in your pocket and when you see the deer run across the road you will 1st decide buck or a doe 2nd decide if it has forks (depending on club) and 3rdly decide what the distance is and then finally decide which shell to put in your gun??

Last edited by .60 caliber buckshot; 03-31-2014 at 12:27 PM.
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  #44  
Old 03-31-2014, 06:45 PM
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Usually, with most people still hunting they either hit and kill or just flat out miss. There is a big difference ETCHIALLY to just spray lead when you admit you know you only have a 75% chance.

Not exactly the same as spraying lead at rats in the landfill.

To each his own I guess.

AND... I think MOST still hunters are way above 75%.

That's just me. Recon someone needs to start a poll??
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  #45  
Old 03-31-2014, 07:53 PM
.60 caliber buckshot .60 caliber buckshot is offline
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Most bad buckshot stories you hear are from unpatterned shotguns at excessive range.

Also known as:

Operator error: Failure to test equipment!
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  #46  
Old 03-31-2014, 08:45 PM
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I know I am going to get blasted for this and I don't mean it personally but hunting with a bow and bleeding one out or waiting an hour or so to start tracking one (which I have seen with guns also, still hunting) is no different than what dhfl is talking about. It doesn't happen often he was just saying that it happens.

I just watched a hunting show few weeks ago where guy shot a huge 8 pointer in the morning hours. Finally found it like at dusk dark. He tracked it and made it get up twice. That isn't ethical either is my point. That same thig happens with still hunting at times. It's something you do not want to happen but it happens is what these guys are trying to say.

Everything cannot be a target range scenario. If it were it would be called killing deer and not hunting deer.
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  #47  
Old 03-31-2014, 09:16 PM
.60 caliber buckshot .60 caliber buckshot is offline
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jfish,

The whole point of this thread was to open a discussion of what constitutes a minimum quick killing pattern in order to establish a reasonable maximum range for popular buckshot sizes.

No one reasonably contends that buckshot pattern testing completely equals field use. The same is true of sighting in a rifle, slug gun, or muzzle loader. Certainly practicing with a bow on a backyard range fits as well.

Unfortunately the thread completely sidetracked when some contended that varying field conditions negated any need to determine the effective limits of the gun, choke and load combination.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jfish View Post
I know I am going to get blasted for this and I don't mean it personally but hunting with a bow and bleeding one out or waiting an hour or so to start tracking one (which I have seen with guns also, still hunting) is no different than what dhfl is talking about. It doesn't happen often he was just saying that it happens.

I just watched a hunting show few weeks ago where guy shot a huge 8 pointer in the morning hours. Finally found it like at dusk dark. He tracked it and made it get up twice. That isn't ethical either is my point. That same thig happens with still hunting at times. It's something you do not want to happen but it happens is what these guys are trying to say.

Everything cannot be a target range scenario. If it were it would be called killing deer and not hunting deer.
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  #48  
Old 03-31-2014, 09:42 PM
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i agree with you jfish.. i would have replied sooner but was at work all day.. dog hunters get bashed no matter what we do.. we cant do anything right if you talk to non-doghunters..good thing is that we live in a country that still allows this practice and i'm going to do it until i die

i agree that there are more wounded with dog hunting..i'd like to say DUH!! doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out..do i make unethical shots sometimes running dogs?? heck yes i do.. so does everyone else at times..its no difference than somebody shooting one with a rifle farther than they have practiced, or shooting one right at dark, or shooting when you can only see certain parts of the deer.

i agree that this thread was sidetracked and some of it is my fault but you can go out and shoot your shotgun with as many different loads but it wont do very much.. yeah you may find the tightest pattern gun but some people doesnt need that

i liked the analogy with dove hunting.. anything that is moving at a good pace is going to be TOUGH to hit no matter how good of a shot you are.. and big7 i wouldnt want to hunt with you..hard to compete with someone that never misses!! i like hearing those miss stories
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  #49  
Old 03-31-2014, 10:53 PM
.60 caliber buckshot .60 caliber buckshot is offline
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A digression for the love of dog hunting:

Here is an online article complete with a B&W photo archive of how a Traditional Southern Hunting Club still follows the age-old traditions of Deep South Deer Hunting. Hauntingly old and refreshingly new, the images of horses, hounds, shotguns and neckties show how it was, and still is...

http://gardenandgun.com/article/call-hunt

http://gardenandgun.com/content/middleton-hunting-club

Last edited by .60 caliber buckshot; 03-31-2014 at 11:14 PM.
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  #50  
Old 04-01-2014, 07:01 AM
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I know 60 caliber I stated above what my experience was with buckshot. I hate that some don't have "if you cant say anything good why say anything at all" approach. No reason to be so negative on a thread just because you don't agree with some thing. If you have valid input then use it if not just don't say anything.

Buckshot is a crazy animal really. Only thing you can do is try and get the best pattern in the target world no different than any other weapon. Penetration will depend upon that to a certain extent. I have seen them barely penetrate the skin at 50 yds to go all the way through them at 75. Crazy as it sounds it just dependant totally upon the conditions at hand and shot placement. Bone stops it pretty fast. Shoot a hog with it and you will see. Just my opinion based on my past experience.

j



Quote:
Originally Posted by .60 caliber buckshot View Post
jfish,

The whole point of this thread was to open a discussion of what constitutes a minimum quick killing pattern in order to establish a reasonable maximum range for popular buckshot sizes.

No one reasonably contends that buckshot pattern testing completely equals field use. The same is true of sighting in a rifle, slug gun, or muzzle loader. Certainly practicing with a bow on a backyard range fits as well.

Unfortunately the thread completely sidetracked when some contended that varying field conditions negated any need to determine the effective limits of the gun, choke and load combination.
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