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  #51  
Old 04-05-2014, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by .60 caliber buckshot View Post
What size bullseye would you choose to represent the vital zone of a deer?

When you pattern test your Shotgun/Choke/Buckshot combination - what is the minimum number of your favorite buckshot pellet size that would deliver a reliable quick killing pattern hitting the vital zone of a deer?
On topic:
In 00 I would be very satisfied with one pellet in the killing zone for a reliable quick kill, BUT-


Slightly off topic:
For me, the test for an “ethical” quick kill shot is different between hunting with dogs and shotguns and stand or still hunting with a rifle. When hunting with dogs the hunter is a unit comprised of himself and his dog(s). A seriously wounded deer has a much greater chance of being run down by the dog part of the unit or harried to the point of bleeding out or exhaustion when it can be recovered because the dog part of the unit knows where the deer is. In my opinion, the dog hunter has a much higher probability of recovering a wounded animal simply because the dog is a part of the unit.


For this reason the number of pellets in the killing zone of a deer at a particular range is not that important in dog hunting. It is more like hunting quail. The purpose of the shot is to stop the quail from flying off so that the dog can find it. If the bird drops dead, that is great, but if it is stopped from flying off the dog will probably make the hunt a successful one.


Patterning a shotgun is important both to quail shooting and deer shooting, but more from the standpoint of how even pattern is and how far it holds tight enough to reliably critically wound the animal hunted.



But that is just one old man's opinion.
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  #52  
Old 04-05-2014, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustUs4All View Post
On topic:
In 00 I would be very satisfied with one pellet in the killing zone for a reliable quick kill, BUT-


Slightly off topic:
For me, the test for an “ethical” quick kill shot is different between hunting with dogs and shotguns and stand or still hunting with a rifle. When hunting with dogs the hunter is a unit comprised of himself and his dog(s). A seriously wounded deer has a much greater chance of being run down by the dog part of the unit or harried to the point of bleeding out or exhaustion when it can be recovered because the dog part of the unit knows where the deer is. In my opinion, the dog hunter has a much higher probability of recovering a wounded animal simply because the dog is a part of the unit.


For this reason the number of pellets in the killing zone of a deer at a particular range is not that important in dog hunting. It is more like hunting quail. The purpose of the shot is to stop the quail from flying off so that the dog can find it. If the bird drops dead, that is great, but if it is stopped from flying off the dog will probably make the hunt a successful one.


Patterning a shotgun is important both to quail shooting and deer shooting, but more from the standpoint of how even pattern is and how far it holds tight enough to reliably critically wound the animal hunted.



But that is just one old man's opinion.
Well said sir.

IMO .60 cal is just a troll.
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  #53  
Old 04-05-2014, 09:39 PM
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Well said sir.

IMO .60 cal is just a troll.

ding ding ding..we have a winner!!
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  #54  
Old 04-05-2014, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustUs4All View Post
On topic:
In 00 I would be very satisfied with one pellet in the killing zone for a reliable quick kill, BUT-


Slightly off topic:
For me, the test for an “ethical” quick kill shot is different between hunting with dogs and shotguns and stand or still hunting with a rifle. When hunting with dogs the hunter is a unit comprised of himself and his dog(s). A seriously wounded deer has a much greater chance of being run down by the dog part of the unit or harried to the point of bleeding out or exhaustion when it can be recovered because the dog part of the unit knows where the deer is. In my opinion, the dog hunter has a much higher probability of recovering a wounded animal simply because the dog is a part of the unit.


For this reason the number of pellets in the killing zone of a deer at a particular range is not that important in dog hunting. It is more like hunting quail. The purpose of the shot is to stop the quail from flying off so that the dog can find it. If the bird drops dead, that is great, but if it is stopped from flying off the dog will probably make the hunt a successful one.


Patterning a shotgun is important both to quail shooting and deer shooting, but more from the standpoint of how even pattern is and how far it holds tight enough to reliably critically wound the animal hunted.



But that is just one old man's opinion.
Yeah, I'd agree with the deer dogs having a much better chance of finding the deer than a wounded deer without dogs on it. Usually, if a deer is wounded, and the dogs don't quit him, because of the shot, or blood scent, that deer will be run down and found.

On the topic of buckshot, I personally didn't have the best results with it when I started deer hunting at age 10 to about 14. Part of it I guess was my lack of knowledge of the effective range. I'd always try to push my shots too far.

It wasn't until I tried to pattern my gun at about 45 yards and realized how few pellets would hit a 4x4 sheet of plywood. My best advice would be to try a few different loads and see which works best if you prefer hunting deer with a shotgun.

For me, once I moved up to a rifle, I'd never go back to a shotgun for deer reguardless of how thick the cover, even with running dogs.

Unless I was in a state that only allowed shotguns, I wouldn't do it.

Just me though.....
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  #55  
Old 04-07-2014, 09:37 PM
.60 caliber buckshot .60 caliber buckshot is offline
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Before posting this response, I conducted a search of the forum for buckshot discussions. It became clear, that many were searching for answers on how far conventional buckshot can be effective. Indeed the answers seemed to reflect a great divide among hunters that use buckshot.

The divide appeared to settled along the issues of pattern and maximum range. Just as in this thread, most would indicate a preference for this or that buckhshot load, but when the word "pattern" came up the division was clear. In so many words the answers of those who actually pattern their loads, spoke of maximum ranges under 50 yards. The non-patterning side seemed to casually mention shooting at ranges of 70 to 100 yards! What a difference!

Those who wrote of deer that were dropped in their tracks - or nearly so - mentioned multiple vital area hits. Frankly that coincides with my own hunting experience with the big smoothbore.

Yes, there will be times when misjudged range or other circumstance leads to a "golden BB" vital hit where the deer is recovered - often only due to canine assistance. However, I don't think for a minute that anyone on this forum would want that to be a regular part of their hunting experience.

It seems to me that taking time to pattern your buckshot gun is no different than making sure your other equipment is in top shape for the hunting season.

When it comes to buckshot, I think the following is excellent advice:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogHunter4Life View Post
just pattern it and see..

Last edited by .60 caliber buckshot; 04-09-2014 at 12:00 AM.
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  #56  
Old 05-08-2014, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by .60 caliber buckshot View Post
When you pattern test your Shotgun/Choke/Buckshot combination - what is the minimum number of your favorite buckshot pellet size that would deliver a reliable quick killing pattern hitting the vital zone of a deer?
Short answer, there isn't a minimum number, I shot a buck at 10 yds once with Remington 3 1/2" 15 pellet 00 buck out of a Mossberg 835 with a 24" barrel, pellets stopped inside the far side of the hide pattern was about 12" diameter, NO pellets penetrated the deer, he was DRT.

Same load, gun, etc. at 85 to 100 yds (not sure exactly how far but at least 85) shot a buck two pellets hit the deer... one hit his G2 and broke off a 3" piece of antler, the other hit his shoulder went through his heart and out the other side of the deer... complete penetration, also DRT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .60 caliber buckshot View Post
What if the gun that, unknown to you, threw the pattern a foot low also produced a "doughnut" pattern as well. Then your reluctance to pattern could very well be the reason for the 25% missed or wounded/unrecovered deer you shot at.
When I first got that Mossberg I patterned it, out of 25 shots of the Remington 3 1/2" 15 pellet 00 buck, 6 of those shots were "doughnuts", 4 had flyers everywhere, 14 put 5 pellets or more inside a 24" circle at 40 yds and 1 put all 15 pellets inside a 10" circle at 40 yds... that's why patterning isn't as important at some people say, what happens if one of those doughnuts happens when I shoot at a deer? but, what if the perfect pattern happens? That's the variables that can happen in a real world experience.

I also have patterned a Mossberg 500, Remington 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 buck, out of 5 shots, 4 were around a 20" pattern at 30 yards, 1 put all 9 pellets inside a 8" circle at 30 yds. Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by .60 caliber buckshot View Post
Excellent example of why patterning buckshot loads is vitally important to deer hunters. This particular Gun/Load/Choke combination is obviously lacking in effective pattern density much beyond 20 yards!
See above of why the standard thing of "fire a shot or two and see how it patterns" doesn't work, you might get that magical shot or two and the rest not be worth crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .60 caliber buckshot View Post
Pattern testing can provide a basis for having two different buckshot loads with you. Depending on the cover, you would then have the choice of using the wider patterning load or the tighter patterning - longer range load.
When I go with my 835 I always have two different sizes with me, Remington 15 pellet 00 buck and Winchester 3 1/2" 54 pellet #4 buck, first shot is for power all others are extra holes. sometimes I throw a .69 (I believe) round ball in the with some 0 buck under it.

As far as changing with the terrain, patterning is not really gonna help, not that I can see anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .60 caliber buckshot View Post
What size circle would you choose to represent the vital zone of a deer for the purpose of pattern testing?
Take the average size of deer in your area, look at a shoulder mount for example, measure from belly to back at front shoulder, I have a doe mount that goes 21" so I use a 24" circle as the kill zone size.

All that said, I've never dog hunted a day in my life, as much as I would LOVE to do it.
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  #57  
Old 05-09-2014, 10:51 AM
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^well that sums it up nicely. I understand patterning your gun but if a buck is doing 30 mph when he hits the road or flying by me I want a little more spread than a turkey-type pattern. I have missed way more from a tight pattern than crippled from a loose. I'll be honest too, I like to see a dog pile on a buck.
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  #58  
Old 05-09-2014, 03:36 PM
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thats right grouper!!
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  #59  
Old 05-11-2014, 10:51 PM
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What is described above is not true patterning. All you have done is take a shell you think you like and see what the pattern looks like.
True patterning includes multiple loads and or chokes if your gun uses chokes. Certain guns and or chokes like certain shells or size of buckshot.
Longer barrels seem to produce more consistent patterns with a wider variety of shells. I started checking buckshot patterning when I went to a 21" barrel. I love how easy it is to get into and out of truck and in heavy cover. It just took more pattern work to get consistent patterns.
Some guns don't like OOB. They may like OOO or #1. If you like a size check multiple brands to get what you want.
If you must use X brand then check the different size buckshot to get patterns you want.
At some point in life, you have to do the things required to do something right.
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  #60  
Old 06-27-2014, 08:11 AM
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Killed a doe last year with one pellet hit her in the backstrap and cut an artery she bled out on the inside in 50 yards never left a drop of a trail
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  #61  
Old 07-22-2014, 08:03 PM
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I guess I'm doing something wrong because none of the buckshot loads, adjustable chokes or either of the 835 shotguns I tried would put the majority of the payload into a predrawn 30 inch circle at 40 yards. Add a sight and it looks much better but one would have to pattern to use one.

http://www.buckmasters.com/buckshot-today.aspx

Last edited by JohnK; 07-27-2014 at 12:29 PM.
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  #62  
Old 08-16-2014, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
the deer is recovered - often only due to canine assistance. However, I don't think for a minute that anyone on this forum would want that to be a regular part of their hunting experience.
recovery due to canine assistance is expected from my hounds. that dude never run dogs
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  #63  
Old 09-20-2014, 02:01 PM
.60 caliber buckshot .60 caliber buckshot is offline
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“Patterning your shotgun is as important as sighting in your rifle-- until you do it there is no way to tell where your gun shoots and how it really performs.” John Haviland


The dogs may run the deer by you, but it is your responsibility to kill the deer quickly with solid multiple pellet hits to the vitals.
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  #64  
Old 12-23-2014, 06:50 PM
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Growing up I did not get to kill a deer with dogs but did all of my hunting with a single barrel 12 gauge 28" mod. choked. I did`nt waste shells patterning it and bought what they had in town. I treated my deer hunting with it kinda like my bird hunting. A fella learns when not to shoot at a dove or when a Turkey is too far or even a squirrel. I did`nt have to measure anything I just took shots at a RANGE I knew I would kill at. I never just slung lead hoping. I`m sure most all that hunt with buckshot shoot within the range of their equipment and have learned that range through experience. Kind of like the way I hunt now with a longbow. If he is too far there is always tomorrow. A beginner cannot understand this and a fella just wanting to kill and not hunt will just sling lead. We all miss sometimes but must take ethical shots if we intend to feel good about what we are doing. Happy Holidays all.RC
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  #65  
Old 12-23-2014, 11:19 PM
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Been dog hunting for 25 years(I'm 29) I have seen deer killed at 130+ paces and I have seen deer shot at 10 yards and run off never to be seen again. It's dog hunting your never going to predict where they are going to pop out or how slow/fast they will be traveling. My personal opinion is patterning a shotgun is a waste of time. If you shoot your gun enough you will know when the right time to pull the trigger is. Your going to miss running dogs, that is all there is to it. If someone tells you they never miss, well they retired after the first kill or you have a liar on your hands. Best bet to be succesful is to get somewhere you can see,hide,and be quite at the same time. Consistently killing deer behind dogs isn't something you calculate or measure, it comes from years of experience. Once you figure it out you will know what I mean. Until then sit back and enjoy the race.
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  #66  
Old 12-24-2014, 12:34 PM
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good post mike...dog hunting you get to know your gun very well... esp if you use it to shoot duck, dove, turkeys, and deer.. i trust my gun 100% and trust my shooting with that gun 100%

-i have let alot of bucks go because of road being too narrow, or not knowing if someone is on the other side of the clear cut, or just not comfortable with the shot...but i've shot at deer well over the recommended distance because of probably never seeing that deer again (i have killed 3 over 100 yards and 2 were running).

-my eyesight is not the best in the world so if i can see horns and its a safe shot...i'm shooting without a doubt.
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  #67  
Old 12-25-2014, 09:40 PM
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Default ethical

I donno, DogHunter4life.... taking 100 yard shots at moving deer with a shotgun you've never patterned (you told us that earlier in this thread) doesn't sound ethical.

Sure, you may kill some deer that far out. And you'll wound some deer. Some of the wounded deer will suffer for a while and eventually die or be too weak to fight off predators. Some of the wounded deer will recover and be healthy again.

You wrote:
Any real dog hunter knows you kill some, you wound some, and you flat out miss some. If you can't stand it, then don't go or don't pull the trigger!!

While I agree that we can't guarantee any particular outcome of taking a shot, I think we owe a duty of care and consideration to the animals we hunt to take them cleanly with a humane kill. Not pop a few pellets into their guts and lungs and let them choke to death on their own blood a half hour later, or die of blood poisoning from the .30 round lead ball in the deer's bowels.

choot at 'em all and let God decide if you eat venison or not just doesn't sound like ethical hunting to me.

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  #68  
Old 12-26-2014, 08:05 AM
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To the folks who seem to be questioning the ethics of shotgunning running deer or one that you consider to be at too far distant:
Have you ever been dove or duck hunting?
Before you went, did you pattern your gun with the brand and load of shells you were using that day? They are all different, even different lots of the same shell.
Did you do this test at every range at which you might try a bird?
Do you only take shots at birds that you know for certain you will place pellets where they will produce a clean quick kill?
If you do all of that, have you ever been guilty of a quick follow on shot (or two) at a bird that you have already missed once?
When you do make that crippling shot where the bird sets and glides into the tree line where the briars make for tough going, do you turn your back on the birds that are flying in and go after the cripple? (The deer dogs do.)

Hunting deer with dogs and shotguns is kin to hunting quail or rabbit only more ground is covered and things develop quickly. It is not at all like hunting deer without dogs. Remember, in those situations where a rifle or bow hunter would be backing out and trying to find a dog, the dog hunter already has a dog on the track. Slowing the deer is frequently all it takes.
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Old 12-26-2014, 11:46 AM
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Default 100 yards

The issue isn't just that the deer is moving.

It's the distance. 100 yards, with a shotgun and buckshot.

I think many guns and loads CANNOT be effective at that range. It is UNREASONABLE to assume that throw a tight enough pattern. You should test the gun and PROVE IT. See for yourself.

Would you hunt deer with a .32 caliber semi-auto pistol?



Suppose you could dump all 8 shots at a running deer in 2 seconds, before he got out of range, and you could keep all your shots in a 5-foot group at that distance?

Is that really so much different from hunting with shotgun with 00 buckshot which throws a 60" pattern at 100 yards?

Either way, EVEN WITH PERFECT AIM, you might get one or two hits on the animal,
but you have no idea where on the critter's body the projectiles will land.
It will be a matter of luck, not skill, whether your pellets bag the dear or just wound it.

Each projectile on its own will be weak. 70 grain hunk of lead moving at about 800 fps (that far away).

***************

P.S. Yes, I'm sure that I have wounded some birds. If you hit some solidly, and miss some, the laws of probability demand that some birds are hit non-lethally. But I DO pattern my guns with similar loads to what I'll be using in the field, and I try to estimate the distance to the bird before I shoot.
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Last edited by GunnSmokeer; 12-26-2014 at 11:52 AM. Reason: added pistol picture
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Old 12-26-2014, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnSmokeer View Post
Yes, I'm sure that I have wounded some birds. If you hit some solidly, and miss some, the laws of probability demand that some birds are hit non-lethally. But I DO pattern my guns with similar loads to what I'll be using in the field, and I try to estimate the distance to the bird before I shoot.
You realize that you just admitted that you were willing to accept a certain level of:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnSmokeer View Post
pop a few pellets into their guts and lungs and let them choke to death on their own blood a half hour later, or die of blood poisoning....

choot at 'em all and let God decide if you eat... or not just doesn't sound like ethical hunting to me.

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Imagine how much more humane it would be and how much more likely would be the quick death of those poor unfortunate birds if one had a partner on their trail already who could follow up on the errant shot and help bring the quarry to hand.

Deer doggers incorporate that help as an integral part of their hunting method.
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Old 12-26-2014, 09:49 PM
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It's the distance. 100 yards, with a shotgun and buckshot.
-i've seen it done and done it myself. so yes i think its possible and i will try it every time if it is a safe shot

I think many guns and loads CANNOT be effective at that range. It is UNREASONABLE to assume that throw a tight enough pattern. You should test the gun and PROVE IT. See for yourself.
-i test my gun every year. i test it in the field of course and i've shot it enough with the load that i use for the past 6 years. i know what my gun can and cant do


Either way, EVEN WITH PERFECT AIM, you might get one or two hits on the animal,
but you have no idea where on the critter's body the projectiles will land.
It will be a matter of luck, not skill, whether your pellets bag the dear or just wound it.

-it only takes one little tiny shot from that OO load. i've see deer taken down with just one pellet in the neck out of 5 shots.

shooting running deer with a shotgun is a skill not just luck. 9 times out of 10 when i think back on one i've just killed, i cant even remember where i aimed or if i even closed one of my eyes. it just comes natural because i've been doing it for 25 years
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Old 01-12-2015, 01:46 AM
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Default Spurious argument: Birdshot vs Buckshot

JustUs4All:

Birdshot patterns are many times larger than the intended target and this works because there are hundreds of pellets in each shell. This is reflected in the traditional 30 inch pattern with sufficient pattern density to take a bird any place within the effective pattern spread at a given distance with proper choke and load.

Buckshot patterns are directed at targets many times larger than any bird. Indeed, due to the very limited number of pellets, sucessfully using buckshot is more about directing a majority of those pellets into the vital zone.

Last edited by .60 caliber buckshot; 02-01-2015 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 01-16-2015, 09:21 PM
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I have to say, this thread is both interesting and disgusting. A testimate proving ignorance is bliss. As long as I have been shooting a shotgun I have known that certain guns shoot certain loads better than others. As a kid 45 hrs ago I knew my shotgun liked 4s and 7 1/2s but not 6s. Buckshot loads are the same. The only way to know is shoot multiple loads and brands.
To not take the time to pattern for the most lethal and efficient load is just sorry.
Now, I know this will ruffle feathers. In all honesty most of my dog hunting friends are the same.
I have said before. Sometimes in life you just need to do something right.
It takes a little time and effort. A little money. It can be done. All someone must do is care enough to do something right for a change.
Less than perfect shot opportunities happen often in dog hunting. A hunter and his rig that are not the best they can be only adds to the possibility of a wounded and unrecovered animal, which is very offensive to me.

Charles Emerson Winchester once said. "I do one thing at a time. I do it very well. Then I move on."
A wise man.
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Old 01-17-2015, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nannyman View Post
What is described above is not true patterning. All you have done is take a shell you think you like and see what the pattern looks like.
True patterning includes multiple loads and or chokes if your gun uses chokes. Certain guns and or chokes like certain shells or size of buckshot.
Longer barrels seem to produce more consistent patterns with a wider variety of shells. I started checking buckshot patterning when I went to a 21" barrel. I love how easy it is to get into and out of truck and in heavy cover. It just took more pattern work to get consistent patterns.
Some guns don't like OOB. They may like OOO or #1. If you like a size check multiple brands to get what you want.
If you must use X brand then check the different size buckshot to get patterns you want.
At some point in life, you have to do the things required to do something right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nannyman View Post
I have to say, this thread is both interesting and disgusting. A testimate proving ignorance is bliss. As long as I have been shooting a shotgun I have known that certain guns shoot certain loads better than others. As a kid 45 hrs ago I knew my shotgun liked 4s and 7 1/2s but not 6s. Buckshot loads are the same. The only way to know is shoot multiple loads and brands.
To not take the time to pattern for the most lethal and efficient load is just sorry.
Now, I know this will ruffle feathers. In all honesty most of my dog hunting friends are the same.
I have said before. Sometimes in life you just need to do something right.
It takes a little time and effort. A little money. It can be done. All someone must do is care enough to do something right for a change.
Less than perfect shot opportunities happen often in dog hunting. A hunter and his rig that are not the best they can be only adds to the possibility of a wounded and unrecovered animal, which is very offensive to me.

Charles Emerson Winchester once said. "I do one thing at a time. I do it very well. Then I move on."
A wise man.
You're missing what everyone is saying... those shells ARE the most consistent AFTER PATTERNING, and you STILL get that ONE shell out of every 5 or 10 or 100 or 1000 whatever that acts nothing like the other ones and throws a pattern twice as big as all the others, there is no such thing as a shotgun that throws a 21" pattern no bigger or smaller at 35 yards every single shot for thousands and thousands of shots.

If everyone made every effort they could to make sure there equipment was the best we would be out there with 2 ga shotguns slinging a 1/2lb of lead every shot instead of 20 ga and 12 ga
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Old 01-17-2015, 08:59 PM
.60 caliber buckshot .60 caliber buckshot is offline
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[quote=Dustin; 8665988] ...When I first got that Mossberg I patterned it, out of 25 shots of the Remington 3 1/2" 15 pellet 00 buck, 6 of those shots were "doughnuts", 4 had flyers everywhere, 14 put 5 pellets or more inside a 24" circle at 40 yds and 1 put all 15 pellets inside a 10" circle at 40 yds... that's why patterning isn't as important at some people say, what happens if one of those doughnuts happens when I shoot at a deer? but, what if the perfect pattern happens? That's the variables that can happen in a real world experience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustin View Post
You're missing what everyone is saying... those shells ARE the most consistent AFTER PATTERNING, and you STILL get that ONE shell out of every 5 or 10 or 100 or 1000 whatever that acts nothing like the other ones and throws a pattern twice as big as all the others, there is no such thing as a shotgun that throws a 21" pattern no bigger or smaller at 35 yards every single shot for thousands and thousands of shots.
From the first quote above, it is painfully obvious that the buckshot load, the 12/10 gauge overbore barrel and the unmentioned choke tube, that you tried, was a woefully inconsistent mismatched combination. The Remington 3.5" 00B round, most likely, did not have a gas seal section capable of sufficient expansion to seal and stabilize the load in a 12 gauge with a 10 gauge size overbore barrel. There was no mention of further testing with any other buckshot load or identified choke constriction in your Mossberg 835 shotgun.

As for the second quote above:

Yes, with mass-produced, machine loaded shotshells, there is indeed the possibility of a damaged gas seal, a folded over wad petal or other problem that occasionally makes it past quality control.

Yes, you are quite correct that "..there is no such thing as a shotgun that throws a 21" pattern no bigger or smaller at 35 yards every single shot for thousands and thousands of shots." That is why pattern testing is all about averages, (which is also why we fire groups when testing rifles.)

Last edited by .60 caliber buckshot; 01-18-2015 at 12:07 AM.
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