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  #201  
Old 11-14-2017, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bullethead View Post
What is interesting is that your god, who's words are supposedly contained in the bible, could not see into the future and more specifically convey back then that slavery was immoral.
Which tells me that no god had anything to do with the bible. The contents reflect man morals and actions at the time.






You are obviously not well versed in history. The Jews were never enslaved like what was told in the bible. The Exodous. Never Happened.

Not immoral when the bible was written = morals of man.
Laws that man has made have been revised over the years. Updated.
The contents of the bible stay the same. The same bible that you can buy hot off the press today contains the same immoral acts as it did a thousand years ago.
Is your god unwilling to change?
Is there really a god involved?

So where did ol Moses get his laws from? According to the bible....god.
And going by that story, your god gave specific instructions all throughout the books of the bible(not just Exodous) regarding slavery.




Are you cherry picking again? You totally missed the quotes that justify beatings, the selling of wives and children of "servants", and can sell your "servants" to others.
No matter how hard you try to not acknowledge slavery, it is in there for all to see.



I bet if you got home and your family was sold off you'd keep wearing the servant tshirt huh?

Take the time to read the other posts that I made about "servants". Knowledge is not a bad thing.
Never said slavery wasn't mentioned or spoken about bullet. The context of it the way you chose to view it is where we disagree. I'm ok if you view Christianity as immoral. I don't expect you to believe anything good about it. As long as you can be ok with me saying that I believe you're wrong, there's nothing immoral about Christianity.
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  #202  
Old 11-14-2017, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
Spotlite conveniently left out the word "considered". Just because people considered slavery moral that doesn't mean it was.

Spotlite also just proved the Bible is not his source of morality.
Ok the "play on words" lol. So does that not apply today? Just because you consider something immoral today, does that mean it was immoral then? And I didn't conveniently leave anything out, I just restated what bullet said.
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  #203  
Old 11-14-2017, 12:51 PM
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Poor analogy. If your mom knows a sibling is sexually abusing you and not only looks the other way but condones it that makes her complicit in the immoral behavior. Her authority over her children and perhaps even her freedom from accountability to any higher authority is irrelevant to that point.
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  #204  
Old 11-14-2017, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Spotlite View Post
Ok the "play on words" lol. So does that not apply today? Just because you consider something immoral today, does that mean it was immoral then? And I didn't conveniently leave anything out, I just restated what bullet said.
It's not a play on words. It's saying two different things. The fact that you dropped that word when you quoted him with quotation marks shows that you recognized the different meaning and chose to misquote him to make it appear he said something he did not. Some might call that intellectually dishonest. Where is SFD when you need him?
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Spotlite View Post
Never said slavery wasn't mentioned or spoken about bullet. The context of it the way you chose to view it is where we disagree. I'm ok if you view Christianity as immoral. I don't expect you to believe anything good about it. As long as you can be ok with me saying that I believe you're wrong, there's nothing immoral about Christianity.
Is there anything immoral about human sacrifice?
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  #206  
Old 11-14-2017, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
Poor analogy. If your mom knows a sibling is sexually abusing you and not only looks the other way but condones it that makes her complicit in the immoral behavior. Her authority over her children and perhaps even her freedom from accountability to any higher authority is irrelevant to that point.
I would agree with that. I guess the question should have been "something that you consider moral today can never be considered immoral"?
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It's not a play on words. It's saying two different things. The fact that you dropped that word when you quoted him with quotation marks shows that you recognized the different meaning and chose to misquote him to make it appear he said something he did not. Some might call that intellectually dishonest. Where is SFD when you need him?
I actually quoted it in the first part. But if it makes you feel better, I went back and fixed it. It doesn't change a thing. They considered it moral then, you consider it immoral now, and I would agree that shavers, raise, and all the examples given are immoral. I'm just saying that that's not the foundation of Christianity. The Christian does not promote any of that. We recognize that it happened in an era where it was or may have been considered moral. If we did, I would multiple wives lol.
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  #207  
Old 11-14-2017, 01:34 PM
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Is there anything immoral about human sacrifice?
Certainly. What human sacrifice are you speaking about?? Jesus??? That was not a sacrifice offered by man. God chose to rob himself in flesh and pay the ultimate price for us. We didn't ask for that or demand it to happen. Crucifixion was capital punishment. Were the two thieves sacrificed or punished? For the Jews, Jesus was "punished" for his actions along with the two thieves. Jesus chose to bear that cross. Even saying forgive them for they know not what they do. Would you lay your life down for your family? In a sense you're "sacrificing" yourself to save them, but it is not a human sacrifice that you are eluding to.


Or are you speaking about Abraham?? He was told to offer his son as a sacrifice. The Christian views this as a test of faith. Can we prove that Abraham did not have enough faith to trust that God will supply? No human sacrifice would have taken place anyway. One or two things can only happen, Abraham would doubt God and not go. Or, God would supply as Abraham believed he would. In the end, it was not in any intent to sacrifice a human.
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  #208  
Old 11-14-2017, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Spotlite View Post
I would agree with that. I guess the question should have been "something that you consider moral today can never be considered immoral"?


I actually quoted it in the first part. But if it makes you feel better, I went back and fixed it. It doesn't change a thing. They considered it moral then, you consider it immoral now, and I would agree that shavers, raise, and all the examples given are immoral. I'm just saying that that's not the foundation of Christianity. The Christian does not promote any of that. We recognize that it happened in an era where it was or may have been considered moral. If we did, I would multiple wives lol.
It changes the meaning completely between saying what people thought was immoral and what actually was immoral. It's two different things. People are fully capable of being wrong on moral questions. I think we can agree on that. The question is, were they wrong at that time? Is it your view that slavery really was moral at that time but not today? Has the morality of slavery changed? Or has it always been immoral and human understanding changed? If the former when exactly did it go from being right to being wrong and by what mechanism? If it was immoral then and your holy book says otherwise then it seems to me that's a problem.

I agree it's not foundational to Christianity although it is a problem with the foundational text. That's why I didn't use it. Too easy for an apologist to look past. Not so easy for the immorality at the core of the gospel. Which takes us to your next post...
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  #209  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:21 PM
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I once related to my baby sister (18 yr. younger, 6 when Dad died and 13 when Mom died), when she was in her early thirties, an event which I consider a wonderful act of loving mentoring toward me. Her response was "He was really mean to you." I will never forget his actions; or her response.
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  #210  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:42 PM
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I once related to my baby sister (18 yr. younger, 6 when Dad died and 13 when Mom died), when she was in her early thirties, an event which I consider a wonderful act of loving mentoring toward me. Her response was "He was really mean to you." I will never forget his actions; or her response.
!!!yes!!!

What things of need to ourselves (and revealed value) are so easily viewed in a different light by another.
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  #211  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Spotlite View Post
Certainly. What human sacrifice are you speaking about?? Jesus??? That was not a sacrifice offered by man. God chose to rob himself in flesh and pay the ultimate price for us. We didn't ask for that or demand it to happen. Crucifixion was capital punishment. Were the two thieves sacrificed or punished? For the Jews, Jesus was "punished" for his actions along with the two thieves. Jesus chose to bear that cross. Even saying forgive them for they know not what they do. Would you lay your life down for your family? In a sense you're "sacrificing" yourself to save them, but it is not a human sacrifice that you are eluding to.


Or are you speaking about Abraham?? He was told to offer his son as a sacrifice. The Christian views this as a test of faith. Can we prove that Abraham did not have enough faith to trust that God will supply? No human sacrifice would have taken place anyway. One or two things can only happen, Abraham would doubt God and not go. Or, God would supply as Abraham believed he would. In the end, it was not in any intent to sacrifice a human.
You start by acknowledging human sacrifice is immoral and then proceed to attempt to justify the instances of it in the Bible. Of course we didn't ask for Jesus to be sacrificed. It's the norm for people engaged in human sacrifice to claim their god requires it. The act itself was carried out by human hands on a human being. Redemption through murder, through the shedding of blood. And not the blood of the one whose wrong must be made right. The blood of the innocent. This is moral? Christians love to claim our laws are founded in Christianity but no where in our laws would this pass for justice. If human sacrifice is immoral then why would a moral god demand it as in the case of Abraham? Why would a moral god accept it as in the case of Jephthah? Why would a man in whom god found favor believe that his god would accept the burnt offering of his own daughter so strongly that he actually went through it? No mention that god rejected this sacrifice. Yet he rejected Cain's sacrifice of fruit. Stop and think about that.

What is it with this bloodlust? Jesus we are told was the ultimate sacrifice. The blood that would finally quench the thirst of a god who up to that point was unwilling to forgive without some bloodshed even if it wasn't the blood of the guilty. This cannot pass for morality and any system of justice that would be set up on the same principles would be rejected as incredibly unjust and immoral.
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  #212  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
You start by acknowledging human sacrifice is immoral and then proceed to attempt to justify the instances of it in the Bible. Of course we didn't ask for Jesus to be sacrificed. It's the norm for people engaged in human sacrifice to claim their god requires it. The act itself was carried out by human hands on a human being. Redemption through murder, through the shedding of blood. And not the blood of the one whose wrong must be made right. The blood of the innocent. This is moral? Christians love to claim our laws are founded in Christianity but no where in our laws would this pass for justice. If human sacrifice is immoral then why would a moral god demand it as in the case of Abraham?.
You're trying to turn an act that was done completely as capital punishment into human sacrifice. Those hands that did that only done it as punishment. Nothing in it was considered "sacrifice" for them.
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Old 11-14-2017, 04:22 PM
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You're trying to turn an act that was done completely as capital punishment into human sacrifice. Those hands that did that only done it as punishment. Nothing in it was considered "sacrifice" for them.
I'm not speaking to the intent of the killers I'm speaking to the intended purpose claimed by Christians. It's your bible that declares it a human sacrifice. It's your religion that turned it into human sacrifice, not me.
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  #214  
Old 11-14-2017, 05:02 PM
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13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith. In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men.

It all is inextricably linked to this one thing. And one has either encountered the resurrected Jesus Christ, or not.

Apart from the resurrection the instructions, admonitions, warnings, and assurances mean absolutely nothing.

But, because of the resurrection...
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  #215  
Old 11-14-2017, 05:15 PM
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I'm not speaking to the intent of the killers I'm speaking to the intended purpose claimed by Christians. It's your bible that declares it a human sacrifice. It's your religion that turned it into human sacrifice, not me.
For the Christian, the purpose is to cover our sins. The only way to the Father is through the blood of Jesus. If Christianity is immoral for going through the blood of Jesus, we will just have to continue being immoral. We didn't set or choose that path. I see what you're getting at, but it's not as you're saying it to be. This is the same as what I asked you before, would you lay down your life to save your family? You are indeed sacrificing yourself but you are not a "human sacrifice" in the sense of just slaughtering a human. A better word than "sacrifice" might have should been considered, but I didn't write it.

For the non believer, it is just a matter of how they understand it when they study it.
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  #216  
Old 11-14-2017, 06:22 PM
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I said atheism has no moral precepts.

To be exact you said
Quote:
There are no precepts of atheism.
which is not one in the same. My entire point is, saying atheism has no precepts is patently false BECAUSE presupposing there is no God doesnít alleviate the Athiest believer from having to answer the BIG questions of life.
If creation isnít true then evolution must be. Evolution in turn has itís own precepts.

Another is the moral law. If there is no Moral Law Giver then there is no moral law. The consequences of that frees the Athiest to determine his own moral, amoral, or
immoral precepts for living his life , but precepts they are. Make no mistake about that. In fact it could be accurately said that the only precepts That cant flow from Athiest are those that necessitate a God for their presupposition. Sorry if I was too dense to convey this more clearly.
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Spotlite View Post
For the Christian, the purpose is to cover our sins. The only way to the Father is through the blood of Jesus. If Christianity is immoral for going through the blood of Jesus, we will just have to continue being immoral. We didn't set or choose that path. I see what you're getting at, but it's not as you're saying it to be. This is the same as what I asked you before, would you lay down your life to save your family? You are indeed sacrificing yourself but you are not a "human sacrifice" in the sense of just slaughtering a human. A better word than "sacrifice" might have should been considered, but I didn't write it.

For the non believer, it is just a matter of how they understand it when they study it.
And how is it for believers? Different somehow?
Consider ~35,000 denominations....

You seem to be under the impression that "believing" somehow allows you to understand it. As though there is some particular understanding that has been proven to be the correct one and if you would just believe well then you could understand it too.
That is just not supported by the facts.
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  #218  
Old 11-14-2017, 07:02 PM
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Never said slavery wasn't mentioned or spoken about bullet. The context of it the way you chose to view it is where we disagree. I'm ok if you view Christianity as immoral. I don't expect you to believe anything good about it. As long as you can be ok with me saying that I believe you're wrong, there's nothing immoral about Christianity.
If you persist at using your own context, please explain the verses and what they mean to you.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:02 PM
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To be exact you said

which is not one in the same. My entire point is, saying atheism has no precepts is patently false BECAUSE presupposing there is no God doesnít alleviate the Athiest believer from having to answer the BIG questions of life.
If creation isnít true then evolution must be. Evolution in turn has itís own precepts.
Here is the exact quote of what I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
There are no precepts of atheism. Atheism is amoral. Christianity is immoral.
I clearly was speaking in the context of moral precepts hence the later statement concerning moral precepts but I stand by the exact phrasing used.

Let's revisit the definition of the term precept.

precept (prēˈsĕptˌ)►
n. A rule or principle prescribing a particular course of action or conduct.
n. Law An authorized direction or order; a writ.


Atheism prescribes no particular course of action or conduct. There is no atheist rule book. It is by definition the absence of a particular belief. Nothing more.


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Originally Posted by SemperFiDawg View Post
Another is the moral law. If there is no Moral Law Giver then there is no moral law.
That's your opinion. My opinion is men have made up many moral law givers and attributed moral laws to them in an effort to make them authoritative, which none of them are. Some might call that fraud. Others might call it intellectual dishonesty.


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Originally Posted by SemperFiDawg View Post
The consequences of that frees the Athiest to determine his own moral, amoral, or
immoral precepts for living his life , but precepts they are. Make no mistake about that. In fact it could be accurately said that the only precepts That cant flow from Athiest are those that necessitate a God for their presupposition. Sorry if I was too dense to convey this more clearly.
Thank you! That was exactly my point in post #83.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Spotlite View Post
Ok the "play on words" lol. So does that not apply today? Just because you consider something immoral today, does that mean it was immoral then? And I didn't conveniently leave anything out, I just restated what bullet said.
What bullet said was it was immoral back then because the bible is totally man made and the writings reflect the morals of the times. No god involved.
Are you agreeing with that?
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  #221  
Old 11-14-2017, 07:06 PM
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And how is it for believers? Different somehow?
Consider ~35,000 denominations....

You seem to be under the impression that "believing" somehow allows you to understand it. As though there is some particular understanding that has been proven to be the correct one and if you would just believe well then you could understand it too.
That is just not supported by the facts.
I'm simply talking about a spiritual discernment that a believer should have where a non believer is not expected to have......due to lack of belief only and nothing to do with ability to learn. If you have that discernment, you should understand spiritual what the scripture means.

I'm well aware that every believer doesn't agree on a scripture 100%, but who's right and wrong is a separate topic.
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  #222  
Old 11-14-2017, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SemperFiDawg View Post
To be exact you said

which is not one in the same. My entire point is, saying atheism has no precepts is patently false BECAUSE presupposing there is no God doesnít alleviate the Athiest believer from having to answer the BIG questions of life.
If creation isnít true then evolution must be. Evolution in turn has itís own precepts.

Another is the moral law. If there is no Moral Law Giver then there is no moral law. The consequences of that frees the Athiest to determine his own moral, amoral, or
immoral precepts for living his life , but precepts they are. Make no mistake about that. In fact it could be accurately said that the only precepts That cant flow from Athiest are those that necessitate a God for their presupposition. Sorry if I was too dense to convey this more clearly.
Quote:
If creation isnít true then evolution must be
Well then you just proved creation false because its a proven fact that things have evolved.
Thats quite an accomplishment and you did it so easily. Even us A/As haven't been able to do that.
Quote:
If there is no Moral Law Giver then there is no moral law
.
Which is why man set up systems and guidelines/laws of what is morally acceptable action as determined by the society they live in. You know how you disagreed with the whole bakers being fined for not baking gay folks a wedding cake? That was it in action.
Quote:
The consequences of that frees the Athiest to determine his own moral, amoral, or
immoral precepts for living his life
See above.
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  #223  
Old 11-14-2017, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Spotlite View Post
For the Christian, the purpose is to cover our sins. The only way to the Father is through the blood of Jesus. If Christianity is immoral for going through the blood of Jesus, we will just have to continue being immoral. We didn't set or choose that path.
You didn't, but someone did. Maybe it has something to do with the origins of this deity you're worshiping.


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Originally Posted by Spotlite View Post
I see what you're getting at, but it's not as you're saying it to be. This is the same as what I asked you before, would you lay down your life to save your family? You are indeed sacrificing yourself but you are not a "human sacrifice" in the sense of just slaughtering a human. A better word than "sacrifice" might have should been considered, but I didn't write it.

For the non believer, it is just a matter of how they understand it when they study it.
We would have to flesh out the analogy in more detail to make it truly comparable but I doubt it would get us anywhere.
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  #224  
Old 11-14-2017, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Spotlite View Post
I'm simply talking about a spiritual discernment that a believer should have where a non believer is not expected to have......due to lack of belief only and nothing to do with ability to learn. If you have that discernment, you should understand spiritual what the scripture means.

I'm well aware that every believer doesn't agree on a scripture 100%, but who's right and wrong is a separate topic.
Just a thought -
You know how its common practice to get advice/councel/judgements etc from people who are NOT involved..... because when you ARE involved (believe) you often can't discern the situation clearly...........
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
Just a thought -
You know how its common practice to get advice/councel/judgements etc from people who are NOT involved..... because when you ARE involved (believe) you often can't discern the situation clearly...........
Nonsense Walt. And I don't get advice either. I just call it as I see it and share my experiences. I do agree with Atlas for once though. I doubt any analogy on this thread is going to get us anywhere.
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