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Old 07-12-2008, 10:55 AM
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Default Out of state resident buying a gun in GA

My brother in law is in town and we are headed to the gwinnet show. Can he legally purchase a gun there and then transport it in the trunk of the car to PA? Or would he have to buy it there and then have it shipped to a ffl in PA.

I plan on asking the dealers at the show but I figured I would check on here before we went.

Thanks
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Old 07-12-2008, 11:25 AM
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He should be able to buy a long gun from a dealer, but not a handgun. If it is bought from a individual out front, or walking around he should be able to buy whatever he wants that it a private transaction. Just like buying it from the classifieds. The transportion I dont know about. As long as its unloaded and not "HOT" there should not be any problem. Im not an expert on GA laws but thats the way it is here in TN also I've bought a few at shows in Dalton and private sales with no problem. Im sure what ever I am wrong about will be corrected.
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Old 07-12-2008, 11:38 AM
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It is ILLEGAL to buy a gun from anyone other than a dealer from a state you do not reside in. This means DO NOT BUY FROM AN INDIVIDUAL walking around at the gunshow unless they are from your state. Buying from a dealer at the show (assuming they have an ffl) should be fine. When they do the paperwork, they will "transfer" the firearm to whoever buys it. Check out the faq site on the ATF website. It is very informative and easy to read.
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Old 07-12-2008, 11:40 AM
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Private sellers can not sell firearms to residents of another state, or a person who is a convicted felon, or a person who is under the legal age to own a firearm.
It is a felony.

An out of state resident can buy long guns only from FFL dealers direct.
Private transactions of long arms must go through an FFL if the buyer/seller is from out of state.
All handgun sales to out of state residents must go through an FFL IN THE STATE WHERE THE BUYER RESIDES.

Go here for the laws.........
http://www.atf.gov/faqs.htm

Last edited by WTM45; 07-14-2008 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 07-12-2008, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Shug View Post
He should be able to buy a long gun from a dealer, but not a handgun. If it is bought from a individual out front, or walking around he should be able to buy whatever he wants that it a private transaction. Just like buying it from the classifieds. The transportion I dont know about. As long as its unloaded and not "HOT" there should not be any problem. Im not an expert on GA laws but thats the way it is here in TN also I've bought a few at shows in Dalton and private sales with no problem.

You just haven't been caught yet.


Im sure what ever I am wrong about will be corrected.
You have broken federal laws if you bought guns from individuals at the Dalton show and did not go through an FFL. Non residents can not do private sales without an FFL transfer. This is not a GA or Tenn. law, it is a federal law. You CAN buy privately without an FFL within your own state for long guns, but not interstate.
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Old 07-12-2008, 01:24 PM
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If you are at a gun show, and you are a non-resident, and you want to purchase a long gun from an individual, you do have the option of getting one of the onsight FFL's to handle the transfer, paying whatever fees they request.

The biggest caveat is that the transferring FFL is responsible for complying with the laws of both states, and it may be a problem finding a FFL that is willing to be responsible for complying with PA laws.

If it is a pistol he want to purchase, there is no option but to have it shipped to an FFL in PA.

Quote:
. If it is bought from a individual out front, or walking around he should be able to buy whatever he wants that it a private transaction. Just like buying it from the classifieds.
There's bad advice, and then there's really bad advice that will get you put in jail, and that statement is the last type.
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Old 07-12-2008, 04:35 PM
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Thanks for the responses guys.
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Old 07-12-2008, 06:14 PM
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Well did you find anything worth buying?
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Old 07-12-2008, 11:03 PM
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Thanks to all for the correction, your information is most helpful. Steller I do apologize for any inconvenience my ignorance may have caused you.
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Old 07-14-2008, 07:54 PM
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WOW! Ive been buying & selling guns to private individuals for years with no problems from the BATF! in State or out of State. But only long guns. And I go to Savana Georgia now and then and have purchased a few long guns at gun shows there with NO problems and brung them back in the back of my SUV.
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Old 07-14-2008, 08:40 PM
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WOW! Ive been buying & selling guns to private individuals for years with no problems from the BATF! in State or out of State. But only long guns. And I go to Savana Georgia now and then and have purchased a few long guns at gun shows there with NO problems and brung them back in the back of my SUV.
You haven't been caught yet is all......bragging about it here might get you some personal attention though.
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Old 07-14-2008, 09:29 PM
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unless a cop pulls you over and you openely come out and say "I bought a gun from a individual in Florida and I live in Ohio".
How would they ever find out?? The gun is not registered. so there is no paper work trail... I mean-not that I am trying to say its right or wrong but I dont see how they could catch you....
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Old 07-14-2008, 09:48 PM
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A smart person would get a bill of sale... one for each party.
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Old 07-14-2008, 10:12 PM
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unless a cop pulls you over and you openely come out and say "I bought a gun from a individual in Florida and I live in Ohio".
How would they ever find out?? The gun is not registered. so there is no paper work trail... I mean-not that I am trying to say its right or wrong but I dont see how they could catch you....
Unless the gun was originally sold before GCA 68 there will be a record of original owner. I don't want to explain how I came to be in possession in another state without a paper trail. If people choose to commit a federal felony, then be prepared for the chance of getting caught. There is a bunch of reasons the gun could be run to check serial numbers. The main one would be that the guy didn't know he was breaking the law, in which case he might just tell a cop he just bought the gun in another state from a private individual. If he bought the gun in Florida and got in a wreck in another state before getting home, the cops might take an interest in the contents of the vehicle since they generally inventory it before it is towed. There are a lot of ways to get caught.

The law isn't there to inconvenience people, it is there to stop exactly what he said he was doing. Going out of state and buying untraceable(Private sales) guns and transporting across state lines. If you break the law often enough, eventually you will get caught. My point is, if he tells us here he might tell the wrong person someday and could ruin his ability to even own a gun in the future. I don't think it is a matter of right or wrong, it is illegal.
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Old 07-14-2008, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
I mean-not that I am trying to say its right or wrong but I dont see how they could catch you...
Famous last words, right up there with "here, hold my beer."

How many people in prison do you think could see how they could be caught.

Quote:
How would they ever find out??
How do you think most drug users get caught? Because the other person in the transaction rats them out. Do you really want to let your future depend on good intentions of someone who has engaged in an illegal transaction with you?

Being involved in an illegal gun transaction is a federal felony. If you are caught, you will lose the right to own any gun for the rest of your natural life, absent a presidential pardon.

So I guess it just depends on how you work out the risk/reward equation.
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Old 07-14-2008, 10:38 PM
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Wow, lot of advice on here will get you in some state & federal trouble....
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Old 07-15-2008, 04:50 AM
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YIKES!!! or is it YOIKES!!!

Either way I would be more apt to follow the law. Hate to find out I can't buy guns legally anymore. Course it really isn't that hard to buy them illegally, criminals seem to do it regularly.
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:08 AM
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I have been buying guns for ALONG time! How is buying a long gun in Georgia and bringing it home to michigan any more illegal than bringing MY gun TO georgia to hunt and bringing it home again? (which I have done too)......Its not. Just hand guns are trouble in that department. Ive brought guns home from Arizona and Ohio, Indiana and Tennesse from FFL dealers, Put the State of residency on the little yellow paper and it goes through with no problems.
If you are a criminal and done/doing wrong you wont be filling out the 4473 would ya? If the BATF wants me, they are welcome. I have done NO wrong.
Last I checked buying a gun from Joe Shcmo down the road is NOT illegal. Its done every day on GunBroker.com by hundreds of private citizens. (Me being one of them on occasion) Yea the buyer needs the fire arm to be recieved by an FFL, but its still a private sale....Im no FFL dealer but Im selling a gun to another private individual.
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:11 AM
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I have been buying guns for ALONG time! How is buying a long gun in Georgia and bringing it home to michigan any more illegal than bringing MY gun TO georgia to hunt and bringing it home again? (which I have done too)......Its not. Just hand guns are trouble in that department. Ive brought guns home from Arizona and Ohio, Indiana and Tennesse from FFL dealers, Put the State of residency on the little yellow paper and it goes through with no problems.
If you are a criminal and done/doing wrong you wont be filling out the 4473 would ya? If the BATF wants me, they are welcome. I have done NO wrong.
You bought them FROM an FFL Dealer, big difference.
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:18 AM
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NOT all of them. And as long as they are not handguns who cares? If they are in a case and placed out of the occupants reach there are no laws being broken.
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:25 AM
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NOT all of them. And as long as they are not handguns who cares? If they are in a case and placed out of the occupants reach there are no laws being broken.
B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the personís own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaserís own State? [Back]


A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b2
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:52 AM
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50 Caliber, do you live in Michigan still?
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:10 AM
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NOT all of them. And as long as they are not handguns who cares? If they are in a case and placed out of the occupants reach there are no laws being broken.
The ATF does.
You are dead wrong. If you do not use an FFL on an interstate firearms transaction, you have committed a felony.
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:23 AM
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The ATF does.
You are dead wrong. If you do not use an FFL on an interstate firearms transaction, you have committed a felony.
Sounds like multiple....
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:31 AM
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Sounds like multiple....
Yep. Buying is one, transporting is another. Each count, each firearm.
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:35 AM
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Apparently ignorance of a law is supposed to be a defense? 50 Caliber, if you buy it out of state and it is not transfered through an FFL, you are committing a federal felony. End of story, no excuses accepted by the federal prosecutor if you are caught, straight to the federal jail. The federal government cares if you are breaking laws......If you are buying guns out of state, they must be processed by an FFL. You seem to be talking about two different things. Your original post stated you were breaking the law and who cares? Your subsequent posts allude to the fact that it can be done legally, which it can if you follow the law. Either your communication skills are flawed or you are trying to flaunt your disregard for the law by stating you do it all of the time. Either way, good luck with not getting caught or at least having to explain to a law enforcement person what you are doing.
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:25 AM
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Unless the gun was originally sold before GCA 68 there will be a record of original owner. I don't want to explain how I came to be in possession in another state without a paper trail. If people choose to commit a federal felony, then be prepared for the chance of getting caught. There is a bunch of reasons the gun could be run to check serial numbers. The main one would be that the guy didn't know he was breaking the law, in which case he might just tell a cop he just bought the gun in another state from a private individual. If he bought the gun in Florida and got in a wreck in another state before getting home, the cops might take an interest in the contents of the vehicle since they generally inventory it before it is towed. There are a lot of ways to get caught.

The law isn't there to inconvenience people, it is there to stop exactly what he said he was doing. Going out of state and buying untraceable(Private sales) guns and transporting across state lines. If you break the law often enough, eventually you will get caught. My point is, if he tells us here he might tell the wrong person someday and could ruin his ability to even own a gun in the future. I don't think it is a matter of right or wrong, it is illegal.



yea-but still-using the wreck as a instance....even if they did run the numbers on the gun they still would not have any hard proof that you bought the gun out of state....

THere would not be any physical proof! after all you could have bought the gun from your neibor bubba down the road...and he was the one that bought the gun out of state illegally....
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:45 AM
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Alright lets throw this into the mix. Say your papaw in ohio gave you and old shot gun, or your brother in arkansas gave you a rifle you have looked high and low for to complete your collection. Are you going to get a ffl dealer to do paper work on it before you cross state lines to bring it home to GA.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:15 AM
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What happens when they go interview "bubba down the road" about the gun and he doesn't know what they are talking about? Now they add obstruction to the charges.
Its a hassle to go the FFL route but absolutely required and safer.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:33 AM
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Default Years ago as a PA resident

I purchased a handgun from a private party in PA, and we had to go through an FFL licensee.
Also, I had to wait three days to take possession of the firearm from the FFL licensee, and then go to the local police chief to get a license(not a concealed carry) to just take the handgun to the pistol range.

If I were the PA fella, I'd run it by a knowledgeable FFL licensee in Pennsylvania. There it might be an "illegally obtained firearm."
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Old 07-16-2008, 11:19 AM
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Alright lets throw this into the mix. Say your papaw in ohio gave you and old shot gun, or your brother in arkansas gave you a rifle you have looked high and low for to complete your collection. Are you going to get a ffl dealer to do paper work on it before you cross state lines to bring it home to GA.
Yes. Bequest or intestate succession would be a different situation.

Last edited by WTM45; 07-16-2008 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:00 PM
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The FFL's in question must have been ignorant as well! When the purchases were made my driveres license is involved, not one has said,"Oops we need to mail this purchase to your home state."
Do you guys know how many private sales are conducted each year in this country? Do you know that if every one was investigated, the law would be backed up for decades and get nothing else done.
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:05 PM
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The FFL's in question must have been ignorant as well! When the purchases were made my driveres license is involved, not one has said,"Oops we need to mail this purchase to your home state."
Do you guys know how many private sales are conducted each year in this country? Do you know that if every one was investigated, the law would be backed up for decades and get nothing else done.
You are not hearing what is being said.

Non-resident purchases of longarms are legal in the eyes of the ATF when done through a licensed FFL.

You must use an FFL in YOUR STATE OF RESIDENCE to take posession of a handgun from an out of state seller, private or FFL.

It is a felony to sell a firearm, a person to person private transaction, to a resident of another state. PERIOD.
It is a felony to buy from a non-FFL source which is outside of your state of residence.
It is a felony to transport an illegally obtained firearm across state lines.


Title 18, USC 922 is the applicable law. Check it out for yourself.
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:23 PM
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OK!
But still, How is any cop going to know if the firearm was purchased from my brother-in-law or an FFL if the firearm or persons in question, has never been in any kind of trouble? Im certainly NOT going to volunteer the information. And my Bro-In-Law wont.
Yes the FFL is "SAFER" If you want uncle Sam in every aspect of your life.
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:26 PM
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It's not about being "safe" it is about being legal.
One violation with subsequent conviction takes away the ability to own and posess firearms FOR LIFE.

There are too many ways it can go bad.
For one example.......the firearm can be stolen from your dwelling. LE recovers it and the thief, the theif tells them where he stole it. The firearm goes through a chain of custody investigation. You get charged with illegally transporting it across state lines.

You have a fire at your dwelling while you are away. Local LE recovers the found firearms. Guess what they do with them?

You get a restraining order issued, and have to surrender your firearms. Guess what they do with them?

You have a major accident on the way to the rifle range or deer camp. LE takes the firearms for safekeeping. Guess what they do with them?

They run serials in NCIC to see if they are listed as stolen. Are you sure everything you have obtained is clean?

Can you provide documentation of purchase for a firearm that was originally sold (first FFL selling it) in another state? All easy chain of custody investigations done by ATF and LE across the nation.

What would be your defense against the felony charges?
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 50 Caliber View Post
The FFL's in question must have been ignorant as well! When the purchases were made my driveres license is involved, not one has said,"Oops we need to mail this purchase to your home state."
Do you guys know how many private sales are conducted each year in this country? Do you know that if every one was investigated, the law would be backed up for decades and get nothing else done.
There are a ton of people that hunt over corn too, but that don't mean it's not illegal. If you disagree with a law, fight to get it changed, but it is wise to obey it in the mean time.
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Old 07-16-2008, 06:14 PM
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Do you know that if every one was investigated, the law would be backed up for decades and get nothing else done.
They don't have to investigate them all to put your butt in a sling, they just have to investigate one.

As I made the point above, you may never do anything the rest of your life to draw attention to yourself. Are you sure that your partner in this illegal transaction will be as circumspect?
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Old 07-16-2008, 07:35 PM
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I trade you my pistol for yours. One owner is from Florida, the other is from Georgia.
In that case, two FFL's would be involved, one each in the state of residence of each new owner, respectively.
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Old 07-17-2008, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 12gamag View Post
yea-but still-using the wreck as a instance....even if they did run the numbers on the gun they still would not have any hard proof that you bought the gun out of state....

THere would not be any physical proof! after all you could have bought the gun from your neibor bubba down the road...and he was the one that bought the gun out of state illegally....
You are in possession of an illegal firearm in a state other than your home state, hard proof is not necessary to charge you only preponderance of evidence is. The Feds don't care how, they will charge you and you will have to defend yourself. Unless you are a lawyer, you will spend a lot of money and still end up in jail. Why is it that some people are so intent on breaking the law and wanting approval from others for doing it? Arguing with someone that can't even use spell check would be rather easy win for a Federal prosecutor. Lay lawyers are a dime a dozen. I try to follow the law, if in doubt I ask an attorney for an opinion not Bubba on the street.
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Old 07-17-2008, 01:22 PM
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Not only are some of these guys in violation of the law, they are posting about it on a public internet forum. That is not very smart at all.

Government agencies DO lurk on these boards. I know this for a fact.

Mark
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  #41  
Old 07-17-2008, 01:55 PM
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In that case, two FFL's would be involved, one each in the state of residence of each new owner, respectively.
Yepper....
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Old 07-17-2008, 01:56 PM
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Not only are some of these guys in violation of the law, they are posting about it on a public internet forum. That is not very smart at all.

Government agencies DO lurk on these boards. I know this for a fact.

Mark
Yes they do....
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:08 PM
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Default Out of state resident buying a gun in GA

In August I will be driving to PA to settle my parents estate, I will be bringing home to GA two firearms that my father wanted me to have, what do I have to do to be legal to transport them back to GA, one is a rifle and the other is a pistol.
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:12 PM
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In August I will be driving to PA to settle my parents estate, I will be bringing home to GA two firearms that my father wanted me to have, what do I have to do to be legal to transport them back to GA, one is a rifle and the other is a pistol.
That's a good ?. I wonder how things work when they're a "gift" or inheritance coming from another state.
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Old 07-17-2008, 02:16 PM
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In August I will be driving to PA to settle my parents estate, I will be bringing home to GA two firearms that my father wanted me to have, what do I have to do to be legal to transport them back to GA, one is a rifle and the other is a pistol.
You need something equivalent to a bill of sale from the executor or administrator of the estate, even if that person is you. Basically, a document that states the John Doe, executor of the estate of Willie Roe, a resident of Blue Ball, PA, transfers title to 2 firearms (describe firearms), to YOU, an heir, address, an heir (or legatee) of John Doe. Wouldn't hurt to have a copy of the documents issued by PA authorizing the executor or administrator to administer the estate.

This is one of the few exceptions to the FFL to FFL transfer rule.

A "gift" even from father to son for example, needs to be handled as any other transfer under the rules described in preceding posts.

BTW, the executor or administrator needs to keep a copy for non-FFL purposes just so he or she can account for the distribution of the estate.

Last edited by Twenty five ought six; 07-17-2008 at 03:03 PM.
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  #46  
Old 07-19-2008, 02:59 PM
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According to the Cambria County (PA) sheriff's office and a FFL holder in PA in December 2007, a parent can legally "gift" a firearm including a handgun to a son/daughter without transferring the firearm and without going through the PA Instant Check System providing that the son/daughter is not a prohibited person regardless of the state of residence of the son/daughter.

This is a question that my dad who has had an FFL has asked Howard Wolfe of the ATF on more than one occasion at annual FFL holder law briefings held by the Sheriff's office in Cambria Co. PA. Mr. Wolfe has told him that the law is very unclear about this and for this reason, the ATF typically doesn't dig into family affairs.

This brings up another good question. I have about 5-10 guns that I've kept at my dad's house from when I used to live there. Is it legal to bring my guns, purchased in PA, which there is no paper trail for, to my house in GA without going through paper work?

As far as purchasing a new or used firearm, legally you should have it sent from a dealer in GA to a dealer in PA. My dad will not do out of state deals unless it is for really close friends or family due to the headache that it creates from transferring the gun into his books then out of his books, PICS, waiting on people to pick up guns etc. To tell you the truth he hates selling guns and usually sticks to gunsmithing.

My advice would be to ask you county sheriff's office regarding these type of gray areas. My experience is that many folks who have FFL's don't even know the laws that well and this is a big reason why some FFL holders have had their licenses suspended.
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Old 07-19-2008, 06:06 PM
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Most FFL's around here think there ink and time are worth more than GOLD! The FNGS wants $75.00 just for a transfer. Another in the next town wants $50.00....
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  #48  
Old 07-19-2008, 06:33 PM
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Most FFL's around here think there ink and time are worth more than GOLD! The FNGS wants $75.00 just for a transfer. Another in the next town wants $50.00....
So you are saying that you are willing to commit a felony for $75.00.

As has been said in plain language, if you are buying a long gun out of state, an FFL has to be involved, either there or here. If you are buying a handgun, that FFL must be in the same state as you. Period.

Plus, IIRC, PA has some pretty strict gun laws which means that they may not allow someone to buy a gun out of state. It would prevent them (the state) from registering the sale (illegally in my opinion). Check it out for yourself.
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  #49  
Old 07-19-2008, 07:37 PM
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Most FFL's around here think there ink and time are worth more than GOLD! The FNGS wants $75.00 just for a transfer. Another in the next town wants $50.00....
50 cal go here:
http://www.biggamehunt.net/forums/index.php
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  #50  
Old 07-20-2008, 07:26 AM
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Wow! I really did not know it was illegal to buy out of state person to person. I have never done it, but when I am in other states I always look into the classifieds and look for guns. I have a buddy who does it as well and has bought many guns this way on business trips. Handguns and rifles. In a few different states. So what if a guy "left" a wad of money on a truck seat and the truck owner felt like gifting you a deer rifle that you saw in the paper. But mind you this is a "gift". See what I'm saying??????????? In no way am I advocating law breaking, I am just saying it is easy to get it twisted. And by the way the ATF doesn't take "I didn't know" as an excuse! They will burn you in an instant! Also most local cops do not know federal law when it comes to guns. Go ask a couple and you'll be surprised of how little they know on the federal level. It is best to go to the source. ATF!
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