#1  
Old 05-28-2011, 06:45 PM
Tim L's Avatar
Tim L Tim L is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default How Did We Come to Exist?

A good friend of mine is now agnostic, former athiest; prior to that former Baptist; now she just doesn't know and this is why.......How did/could we and all around us come to exist without some sort of higher inteligence; some unexplainable higher power..for a moment don't think in terms of a God, a particular religon, or even a higher form of being and try to overgone the urge to simply come back with what created God, if you do your missing the point......

Logic tells us that everything has a beginning.....no matter how far we go back in any situation, scenrio, or context, there is a beginning....Now even if you go back to the big bang; that moment before the tremendous explosion of energy; what created the very elements that set the ball in motion? Something had to be present for the big bang to have ocurred in the first place....Logic tells us that energy and mass cannot just suddenly come to exist from nothing... It is simply impossible...You can't divide zerio by zero; it cannot be....Again, try to resist the urge to simply come back with "OK what created God or the higher power"...if you fall into that trap your missing the point...

But quite simply, knowing that logic teaches us that mass and energy cannot simply come to exist from nothing; someone explain how everything around us came to be without something being there before the very beginning to set things in motion....It's a big deep thought thats hard to wrap your mind around, but it simply is not possibe..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-28-2011, 08:07 PM
ambush80's Avatar
ambush80 ambush80 is online now
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: GA
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim L View Post
A good friend of mine is now agnostic, former athiest; prior to that former Baptist; now she just doesn't know and this is why.......How did/could we and all around us come to exist without some sort of higher inteligence; some unexplainable higher power..for a moment don't think in terms of a God, a particular religon, or even a higher form of being and try to overgone the urge to simply come back with what created God, if you do your missing the point......

Logic tells us that everything has a beginning.....no matter how far we go back in any situation, scenrio, or context, there is a beginning....Now even if you go back to the big bang; that moment before the tremendous explosion of energy; what created the very elements that set the ball in motion? Something had to be present for the big bang to have ocurred in the first place....Logic tells us that energy and mass cannot just suddenly come to exist from nothing... It is simply impossible...You can't divide zerio by zero; it cannot be....Again, try to resist the urge to simply come back with "OK what created God or the higher power"...if you fall into that trap your missing the point...

But quite simply, knowing that logic teaches us that mass and energy cannot simply come to exist from nothing; someone explain how everything around us came to be without something being there before the very beginning to set things in motion....It's a big deep thought thats hard to wrap your mind around, but it simply is not possibe..
Why would you dismiss this as not important?

If God doesn't need a creator than why does all the "stuff" need one?
__________________
Ezekiel 23:20-21
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-28-2011, 08:23 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim L View Post
Logic tells us that energy and mass cannot just suddenly come to exist from nothing...
How do you know that is what happened?
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-28-2011, 09:04 PM
CAL CAL is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
iTrader: (11) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
How do you know that is what happened?
Chemistry 101,"nothing is ever created or destroyed,it's molecular structure is changed"!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-28-2011, 09:15 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAL View Post
Chemistry 101,"nothing is ever created or destroyed,it's molecular structure is changed"!
Exactly
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-28-2011, 09:48 PM
fishinbub's Avatar
fishinbub fishinbub is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jackson County
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
Why would you dismiss this as not important?

If God doesn't need a creator than why does all the "stuff" need one?
From dictionary.com

Scientific Law
a phenomenon of nature that has been proven to invariably occur

God
a supernatural being

Supernatural
or being above or beyond what is natural
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-29-2011, 11:04 AM
ted_BSR's Avatar
ted_BSR ted_BSR is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Woodstock, GA
iTrader: (1) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishinbub View Post
From dictionary.com

Scientific Law
a phenomenon of nature that has been proven to invariably occur

God
a supernatural being

Supernatural
or being above or beyond what is natural
Very good points. The questions in the OP cannot be answered with logic. The answers are supernatural in nature.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-29-2011, 12:28 PM
WTM45's Avatar
WTM45 WTM45 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: .
iTrader: (6) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ted_BSR View Post
Very good points. The questions in the OP cannot be answered with logic. The answers are supernatural in nature.
Um, wrong.
A person can use supernatural explanations if they so choose, but there is no way a definitive answer can be 100% accurate using such methods.

Best they can do is state they simply do not know.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-29-2011, 02:16 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Nothing more than argument from ignorance. Rainbows were also once thought to be supernatural.
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-29-2011, 04:03 PM
Tim L's Avatar
Tim L Tim L is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
Why would you dismiss this as not important?

If God doesn't need a creator than why does all the "stuff" need one?
Because thats anothor issue and this question gets lost when you make that part of the equation....Once you do that the answer becomes nothing exists at all...Again, for just a moment don't put a label on whatever was the spark that set things in motion....If it clouds the issue so much as to say God set things in motion; then think of it as some child of a group of beings with a higher level of existance playing in the equivalent of mud and the universe we now inhabit is the result of that childs playing in the mud....Silly comparison, I know; but some are so eager to put a label on that spark that things break down into the old Pee Wee Hermain line "I know you are but what am I"....

Don't go there...The issue is how did that initial matter that resulted in the big bang come into being a split second before the bang itself???
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-29-2011, 04:10 PM
Tim L's Avatar
Tim L Tim L is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAL View Post
Chemistry 101,"nothing is ever created or destroyed,it's molecular structure is changed"!
Thank you; whether you meant to or not you just proved my point...nothing is ever destroyed; it's molecular structure just changes....what was is and what is will be...nothing new.....However.....again.....that molecular structure could not have existed from the present to the past infinity without a point of beginning......Somehow, prior to the big bang that initial matter came into being seemingly from nothing....Logically speaking; nothing should exist....Stay with the question that was asked, don't take it into other directions or you won't be able to see the forest for the trees...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-29-2011, 04:16 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim L View Post
However.....again.....that molecular structure could not have existed from the present to the past infinity without a point of beginning......Somehow, prior to the big bang that initial matter came into being seemingly from nothing....
How do you know this? How do you know that "something" hasn't always existed?
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-29-2011, 04:17 PM
Tim L's Avatar
Tim L Tim L is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
Nothing more than argument from ignorance. Rainbows were also once thought to be supernatural.
Alrighty then; you completely misunderstood the question and have no concept at all of what I asked....
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-29-2011, 04:19 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim L View Post
Alrighty then; you completely misunderstood the question and have no concept at all of what I asked....
I understand the question. But resorting to a supernatural explanation really explains nothing and as with rainbows is an argument used to plug a gap in our knowledge until the real answer is found.

Your question is based on certain assumptions that we don't know to be true.
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-29-2011, 04:54 PM
Tim L's Avatar
Tim L Tim L is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
I understand the question. But resorting to a supernatural explanation really explains nothing and as with rainbows is an argument used to plug a gap in our knowledge until the real answer is found.

Your question is based on certain assumptions that we don't know to be true.
There doesn't necessarily have to be a supernatural explantion; again thats a code word that is somestimes said when we want to dismiss a troublesome idea, but quite simply how did that initial matter that exploded into becoming the universe we know come into being? Logic tells us that it should not have been there in the first place; but somehow it was....keep in mind, many, many scientific "truths" do not stand the test of time; much of what the scientific community accepted as fact (such as it was and it would not have been in the west; would have been Asia, the Middle East, and the Indian subcontinent) a thousand years ago, such as the practice of "bleeding" a person for a wide variety of physical and emotional problems are not accepted today and it is not too far fetched to expect that much of what is a "scientific truth" today will be a piece of trival in a history book (or program) a thousand years from now...Again do not get too caught up in the term supernatural or if you must consider it from a deist perspective...

If you (or anyone else, do not mean to sound condicending) can do that and start peeling away the layers of this onion and really think about it with an open mind, it is very hard to conceive how anything at all has come to exist without something being the initial spark..
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-29-2011, 05:42 PM
ted_BSR's Avatar
ted_BSR ted_BSR is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Woodstock, GA
iTrader: (1) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WTM45 View Post
Um, wrong.
A person can use supernatural explanations if they so choose, but there is no way a definitive answer can be 100% accurate using such methods.

Best they can do is state they simply do not know.
Same with logic. Nothing is 100% accurate.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-29-2011, 05:44 PM
ted_BSR's Avatar
ted_BSR ted_BSR is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Woodstock, GA
iTrader: (1) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
Nothing more than argument from ignorance. Rainbows were also once thought to be supernatural.
Your jab is ridiculous Atlas. I have come to expect it from you.

I am well educated.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-29-2011, 07:35 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

What's ridiculous is the God of the gaps argumentation. Doesn't matter if you call it supernatural, intelligence, God, whatever.

Tim you still haven't answered the question that I have asked twice now.
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-29-2011, 08:16 PM
fishinbub's Avatar
fishinbub fishinbub is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jackson County
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
How do you know this? How do you know that "something" hasn't always existed?
To quote yourself, "Do you believe Einstein's theory to be incorrect?"...
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-29-2011, 08:48 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishinbub View Post
To quote yourself, "Do you believe Einstein's theory to be incorrect?"...
Nope. My question still stands.
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-29-2011, 09:01 PM
fishinbub's Avatar
fishinbub fishinbub is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jackson County
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
Nope. My question still stands.
Then this is a poor attempt to change the subject...
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-29-2011, 09:10 PM
WTM45's Avatar
WTM45 WTM45 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: .
iTrader: (6) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ted_BSR View Post
Same with logic. Nothing is 100% accurate.
There are things that are 100% accurate. Takes time and effort to prove them as such.

Tim L, matter has always been, in various forms. So has energy. What we have to do as humans is realize the concept of time is something WE have created.
It is not universal and does not apply to the cosmos.

I recommend some deeper study and reading of the cosmological argument.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-29-2011, 09:26 PM
fishinbub's Avatar
fishinbub fishinbub is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jackson County
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WTM45 View Post
There are things that are 100% accurate. Takes time and effort to prove them as such.

Tim L, matter has always been, in various forms. So has energy. What we have to do as humans is realize the concept of time is something WE have created.
It is not universal and does not apply to the cosmos.

I recommend some deeper study and reading of the cosmological argument.
So, when will you release your perpetual motion machine to the public?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-29-2011, 09:35 PM
ted_BSR's Avatar
ted_BSR ted_BSR is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Woodstock, GA
iTrader: (1) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WTM45 View Post
There are things that are 100% accurate. Takes time and effort to prove them as such.

Tim L, matter has always been, in various forms. So has energy. What we have to do as humans is realize the concept of time is something WE have created.
It is not universal and does not apply to the cosmos.

I recommend some deeper study and reading of the cosmological argument.
Nothing can be proven. Study that.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-29-2011, 09:41 PM
ted_BSR's Avatar
ted_BSR ted_BSR is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Woodstock, GA
iTrader: (1) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
What's ridiculous is the God of the gaps argumentation. Doesn't matter if you call it supernatural, intelligence, God, whatever.

Tim you still haven't answered the question that I have asked twice now.
Whatever? You go Atlas! Nice job!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-29-2011, 09:46 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishinbub View Post
Then this is a poor attempt to change the subject...
No, it's entirely on subject. If you're going to ask how something came from nothing you first need to establish that something did come from nothing.
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-29-2011, 09:51 PM
fishinbub's Avatar
fishinbub fishinbub is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jackson County
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
No, it's entirely on subject. If you're going to ask how something came from nothing you first need to establish that something did come from nothing.
And if you can't answer a tough question, you knit pick until somebody will argue with you over something completely irrelevant...
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-29-2011, 10:25 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

It's a tough question because we don't know the premise to even be true. Why have you yet to answer it instead of knit picking me for asking it?
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-29-2011, 10:29 PM
fishinbub's Avatar
fishinbub fishinbub is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jackson County
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
It's a tough question because we don't know the premise to even be true. Why have you yet to answer it instead of knit picking me for asking it?
You can't be that ignorant. My reference thermodynamics and the theory of relativity (and how the pertain to this discussion) are as plain as the nose on your face. Don't play dumb...
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-29-2011, 10:52 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishinbub View Post
You can't be that ignorant. My reference thermodynamics and the theory of relativity (and how the pertain to this discussion) are as plain as the nose on your face. Don't play dumb...
What makes you think those demonstrate that energy/matter came from nothing?
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05-30-2011, 06:41 AM
WTM45's Avatar
WTM45 WTM45 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: .
iTrader: (6) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ted_BSR View Post
Nothing can be proven. Study that.
Sure some things can, both in physical existance and in scientific experimentation result.
I am quite well read and I study daily. My recommendation for Tim L was simply to give him the actual name of the subject of discussion to make searches easier.
There are some excellent discussions pertaining to the prime mover and unmoved mover arguments available on line.

Last edited by WTM45; 05-30-2011 at 06:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-30-2011, 06:45 AM
WTM45's Avatar
WTM45 WTM45 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: .
iTrader: (6) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
What makes you think those demonstrate that energy/matter came from nothing?
Nailed.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-30-2011, 08:23 AM
Thanatos's Avatar
Thanatos Thanatos is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Macon
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

The greatest thing of all about this discussion is that whatever theory these atheist choose to believe they must have "faith" in that theory. It is truly ironic.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-30-2011, 10:38 AM
WTM45's Avatar
WTM45 WTM45 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: .
iTrader: (6) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanatos View Post
The greatest thing of all about this discussion is that whatever theory these atheist choose to believe they must have "faith" in that theory. It is truly ironic.
That's a fallacy of equivocation.
Some Atheists and Agnostics may hold a belief using meager or inadequate evidence, but it is not based on "faith" in the sense of not having any evidence whatsoever.

"This is not to claim that the Big Bang is the last word; the first cause. That would be to misunderstand the logical force of the Razor - that if you believe in one entity more than other people, you are less likely to be right, so need a good reason for doing so. Putting God forward as the first cause, and then claiming he was always there, is just to treat Him as a "brute fact." This just shifts the problem to why He - rather than the universe - has no cause. It's never very satisfactory to call something a brute fact. But since we have no alternative for now, we had best make it the universe, which we at least know exists."
Thomas Ash

Last edited by WTM45; 05-30-2011 at 10:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-30-2011, 12:20 PM
fishinbub's Avatar
fishinbub fishinbub is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jackson County
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
What makes you think those demonstrate that energy/matter came from nothing?
Don't play dumb. We've had this discussion before. You know as well as I do that energy is not infinite (second law of thermodynamics), that matter and energy are interdependent, and that the universe is expanding. Anyone with a middle school education knows that the universe must have a definite beginning. The debate is to how the "beginning" happened...
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-30-2011, 12:23 PM
fishinbub's Avatar
fishinbub fishinbub is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jackson County
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WTM45 View Post
That's a fallacy of equivocation.
Some Atheists and Agnostics may hold a belief using meager or inadequate evidence, but it is not based on "faith" in the sense of not having any evidence whatsoever.

"This is not to claim that the Big Bang is the last word; the first cause. That would be to misunderstand the logical force of the Razor - that if you believe in one entity more than other people, you are less likely to be right, so need a good reason for doing so. Putting God forward as the first cause, and then claiming he was always there, is just to treat Him as a "brute fact." This just shifts the problem to why He - rather than the universe - has no cause. It's never very satisfactory to call something a brute fact. But since we have no alternative for now, we had best make it the universe, which we at least know exists."
Thomas Ash
From dictionary.com

Faith-belief that is not based on proof
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-30-2011, 01:06 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishinbub View Post
Don't play dumb. We've had this discussion before. You know as well as I do that energy is not infinite (second law of thermodynamics), that matter and energy are interdependent, and that the universe is expanding. Anyone with a middle school education knows that the universe must have a definite beginning. The debate is to how the "beginning" happened...
If all of the energy was present at that "beginning" then the original question is pointless.
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-30-2011, 01:14 PM
fishinbub's Avatar
fishinbub fishinbub is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jackson County
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
If all of the energy was present at that "beginning" then the original question is pointless.
Why?
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-30-2011, 01:27 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Because no energy was created.
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-30-2011, 01:50 PM
fishinbub's Avatar
fishinbub fishinbub is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jackson County
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
Because no energy was created.
Explain how this is possible...
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 05-30-2011, 02:03 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

What other possibility is there in light of the laws of physics that you have been putting forward? If all of the energy in the universe were present at the big bang then where are you seeing creation of energy from nothing?
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-30-2011, 02:13 PM
fishinbub's Avatar
fishinbub fishinbub is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jackson County
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
What other possibility is there in light of the laws of physics that you have been putting forward? If all of the energy in the universe were present at the big bang then where are you seeing creation of energy from nothing?
Energy and matter are interdependent. It is impossible to have energy without matter. How can you have energy prior to the big bang?
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-30-2011, 03:17 PM
bullethead bullethead is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Pa.
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

The big bang may have well been for THIS universe, created from matter from another universe and so on and so on and so on. It could be a reoccurring loop in that the universe might re-create itself over time. Time is the culprit we cannot comprehend and time is the key to our answers. We want instant gratification and it is easiest to owe it all to some being just like ourselves, but better......I doubt it folks. Hundreds of billions on years or more seems supernatural and thats about it.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-30-2011, 03:41 PM
fishinbub's Avatar
fishinbub fishinbub is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jackson County
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullethead View Post
The big bang may have well been for THIS universe, created from matter from another universe and so on and so on and so on. It could be a reoccurring loop in that the universe might re-create itself over time. Time is the culprit we cannot comprehend and time is the key to our answers. We want instant gratification and it is easiest to owe it all to some being just like ourselves, but better......I doubt it folks. Hundreds of billions on years or more seems supernatural and thats about it.
Sorry, but that is the worst cop-out I've ever heard.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05-30-2011, 03:51 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

fishinbub you still haven't answered the question. Big Bang Theory doesn't assert any energy creation. All the "stuff" of the universe was there. What happened before that is a question mark. We don't know that energy was "created" at all much less what would have created it if it was. But to be able to ask the question "what created it?" you first have to establish that it was in fact created and that hasn't been established. Citing laws that state energy can't be created or destroyed hardly helps make your case.
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 05-30-2011, 03:56 PM
bullethead bullethead is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Pa.
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishinbub View Post
Sorry, but that is the worst cop-out I've ever heard.
Yes, a cop-out. What I meant to say was my imaginary friend who ALWAYS existed, even though I argue that nothing else can always exist, made it, us and everything because he was bored and NEEDED some creatures to worship him. My friend sees everything, knows everything, is all powerful, infallible and inerrant except he is shown to be all of those things or none of those things then he is above everyone's comprehension. No one knows how or what my friend thinks, but if you believe in my friend you somehow have a better grasp on the way he works and can speak for him. Bottom line is that ONLY my friend has always existed, nothing else so he made everything else.

Better?

Last edited by bullethead; 05-30-2011 at 04:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 05-30-2011, 03:57 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Here is another question. If what we know about the universe requires or even suggests some supernatural first cause why don't cosmologists come to that conclusion?
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 05-30-2011, 04:09 PM
fishinbub's Avatar
fishinbub fishinbub is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Jackson County
iTrader: (0) Check/Add Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atlashunter View Post
fishinbub you still haven't answered the question. Big Bang Theory doesn't assert any energy creation. All the "stuff" of the universe was there. What happened before that is a question mark. We don't know that energy was "created" at all much less what would have created it if it was. But to be able to ask the question "what created it?" you first have to establish that it was in fact created and that hasn't been established. Citing laws that state energy can't be created or destroyed hardly helps make your case.
So, exactly what laws state that energy cannot be created or destroyed? Either you have an extremely poor grasp on scientific laws, or you are flat out trying to deceive folks. Care to explain how energy can be infinite, with no beginning and no end?
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 05-30-2011, 04:16 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

Quote:
The law of conservation of energy is a law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in a system remains constant over time (is said to be conserved over time). A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed: it can only be transformed from one state to another. The only thing that can happen to energy in a system is that it can change form: for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy.

Albert Einstein's theory of relativity shows that mass is a form of energy (see rest mass energy) so they can transform one into another. So the distinction between "matter" particles (such as those constituting atoms) and energy particles (say photons of light) is not wide - they can turn one into other (see annihilation and matter creation). However, this conversion does not affect the total energy of closed systems.

So conservation of energy refers to the conservation of the total energy of an isolated system over time (including rest mass energy mc˛ associated with the rest mass of particles) and all other forms of energy (kinetic, potential, nuclear, chemical, thermal, etc.) in the system together.

A consequence of the law of energy conservation is that perpetual motion machines can only work perpetually if they deliver no energy to their surroundings.
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 05-30-2011, 04:18 PM
atlashunter's Avatar
atlashunter atlashunter is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Parts unknown
iTrader: (3) Check/Add Feedback
Default

So let's try this one more time since you prefer to ask questions rather than answer them.

Can you cite a time that energy was ever created?
__________________
An election is nothing more than the advanced auction of stolen goods. ~Ambrose Bierce
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004 Georgia Outdoor News, Inc.Ad Management by RedTyger