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Old 05-28-2011, 06:45 PM
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Default How Did We Come to Exist?

A good friend of mine is now agnostic, former athiest; prior to that former Baptist; now she just doesn't know and this is why.......How did/could we and all around us come to exist without some sort of higher inteligence; some unexplainable higher power..for a moment don't think in terms of a God, a particular religon, or even a higher form of being and try to overgone the urge to simply come back with what created God, if you do your missing the point......

Logic tells us that everything has a beginning.....no matter how far we go back in any situation, scenrio, or context, there is a beginning....Now even if you go back to the big bang; that moment before the tremendous explosion of energy; what created the very elements that set the ball in motion? Something had to be present for the big bang to have ocurred in the first place....Logic tells us that energy and mass cannot just suddenly come to exist from nothing... It is simply impossible...You can't divide zerio by zero; it cannot be....Again, try to resist the urge to simply come back with "OK what created God or the higher power"...if you fall into that trap your missing the point...

But quite simply, knowing that logic teaches us that mass and energy cannot simply come to exist from nothing; someone explain how everything around us came to be without something being there before the very beginning to set things in motion....It's a big deep thought thats hard to wrap your mind around, but it simply is not possibe..
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:07 PM
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A good friend of mine is now agnostic, former athiest; prior to that former Baptist; now she just doesn't know and this is why.......How did/could we and all around us come to exist without some sort of higher inteligence; some unexplainable higher power..for a moment don't think in terms of a God, a particular religon, or even a higher form of being and try to overgone the urge to simply come back with what created God, if you do your missing the point......

Logic tells us that everything has a beginning.....no matter how far we go back in any situation, scenrio, or context, there is a beginning....Now even if you go back to the big bang; that moment before the tremendous explosion of energy; what created the very elements that set the ball in motion? Something had to be present for the big bang to have ocurred in the first place....Logic tells us that energy and mass cannot just suddenly come to exist from nothing... It is simply impossible...You can't divide zerio by zero; it cannot be....Again, try to resist the urge to simply come back with "OK what created God or the higher power"...if you fall into that trap your missing the point...

But quite simply, knowing that logic teaches us that mass and energy cannot simply come to exist from nothing; someone explain how everything around us came to be without something being there before the very beginning to set things in motion....It's a big deep thought thats hard to wrap your mind around, but it simply is not possibe..
Why would you dismiss this as not important?

If God doesn't need a creator than why does all the "stuff" need one?
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:23 PM
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Logic tells us that energy and mass cannot just suddenly come to exist from nothing...
How do you know that is what happened?
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:04 PM
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How do you know that is what happened?
Chemistry 101,"nothing is ever created or destroyed,it's molecular structure is changed"!
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:15 PM
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Chemistry 101,"nothing is ever created or destroyed,it's molecular structure is changed"!
Exactly
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:48 PM
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Why would you dismiss this as not important?

If God doesn't need a creator than why does all the "stuff" need one?
From dictionary.com

Scientific Law
a phenomenon of nature that has been proven to invariably occur

God
a supernatural being

Supernatural
or being above or beyond what is natural
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Old 05-29-2011, 11:04 AM
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From dictionary.com

Scientific Law
a phenomenon of nature that has been proven to invariably occur

God
a supernatural being

Supernatural
or being above or beyond what is natural
Very good points. The questions in the OP cannot be answered with logic. The answers are supernatural in nature.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:28 PM
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Very good points. The questions in the OP cannot be answered with logic. The answers are supernatural in nature.
Um, wrong.
A person can use supernatural explanations if they so choose, but there is no way a definitive answer can be 100% accurate using such methods.

Best they can do is state they simply do not know.
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Old 05-29-2011, 02:16 PM
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Nothing more than argument from ignorance. Rainbows were also once thought to be supernatural.
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:03 PM
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Why would you dismiss this as not important?

If God doesn't need a creator than why does all the "stuff" need one?
Because thats anothor issue and this question gets lost when you make that part of the equation....Once you do that the answer becomes nothing exists at all...Again, for just a moment don't put a label on whatever was the spark that set things in motion....If it clouds the issue so much as to say God set things in motion; then think of it as some child of a group of beings with a higher level of existance playing in the equivalent of mud and the universe we now inhabit is the result of that childs playing in the mud....Silly comparison, I know; but some are so eager to put a label on that spark that things break down into the old Pee Wee Hermain line "I know you are but what am I"....

Don't go there...The issue is how did that initial matter that resulted in the big bang come into being a split second before the bang itself???
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:10 PM
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Chemistry 101,"nothing is ever created or destroyed,it's molecular structure is changed"!
Thank you; whether you meant to or not you just proved my point...nothing is ever destroyed; it's molecular structure just changes....what was is and what is will be...nothing new.....However.....again.....that molecular structure could not have existed from the present to the past infinity without a point of beginning......Somehow, prior to the big bang that initial matter came into being seemingly from nothing....Logically speaking; nothing should exist....Stay with the question that was asked, don't take it into other directions or you won't be able to see the forest for the trees...
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:16 PM
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However.....again.....that molecular structure could not have existed from the present to the past infinity without a point of beginning......Somehow, prior to the big bang that initial matter came into being seemingly from nothing....
How do you know this? How do you know that "something" hasn't always existed?
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:17 PM
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Nothing more than argument from ignorance. Rainbows were also once thought to be supernatural.
Alrighty then; you completely misunderstood the question and have no concept at all of what I asked....
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:19 PM
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Alrighty then; you completely misunderstood the question and have no concept at all of what I asked....
I understand the question. But resorting to a supernatural explanation really explains nothing and as with rainbows is an argument used to plug a gap in our knowledge until the real answer is found.

Your question is based on certain assumptions that we don't know to be true.
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:54 PM
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I understand the question. But resorting to a supernatural explanation really explains nothing and as with rainbows is an argument used to plug a gap in our knowledge until the real answer is found.

Your question is based on certain assumptions that we don't know to be true.
There doesn't necessarily have to be a supernatural explantion; again thats a code word that is somestimes said when we want to dismiss a troublesome idea, but quite simply how did that initial matter that exploded into becoming the universe we know come into being? Logic tells us that it should not have been there in the first place; but somehow it was....keep in mind, many, many scientific "truths" do not stand the test of time; much of what the scientific community accepted as fact (such as it was and it would not have been in the west; would have been Asia, the Middle East, and the Indian subcontinent) a thousand years ago, such as the practice of "bleeding" a person for a wide variety of physical and emotional problems are not accepted today and it is not too far fetched to expect that much of what is a "scientific truth" today will be a piece of trival in a history book (or program) a thousand years from now...Again do not get too caught up in the term supernatural or if you must consider it from a deist perspective...

If you (or anyone else, do not mean to sound condicending) can do that and start peeling away the layers of this onion and really think about it with an open mind, it is very hard to conceive how anything at all has come to exist without something being the initial spark..
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Old 05-29-2011, 05:42 PM
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Um, wrong.
A person can use supernatural explanations if they so choose, but there is no way a definitive answer can be 100% accurate using such methods.

Best they can do is state they simply do not know.
Same with logic. Nothing is 100% accurate.
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Old 05-29-2011, 05:44 PM
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Nothing more than argument from ignorance. Rainbows were also once thought to be supernatural.
Your jab is ridiculous Atlas. I have come to expect it from you.

I am well educated.
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Old 05-29-2011, 07:35 PM
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What's ridiculous is the God of the gaps argumentation. Doesn't matter if you call it supernatural, intelligence, God, whatever.

Tim you still haven't answered the question that I have asked twice now.
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Old 05-29-2011, 08:16 PM
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How do you know this? How do you know that "something" hasn't always existed?
To quote yourself, "Do you believe Einstein's theory to be incorrect?"...
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Old 05-29-2011, 08:48 PM
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To quote yourself, "Do you believe Einstein's theory to be incorrect?"...
Nope. My question still stands.
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Old 05-29-2011, 09:01 PM
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Nope. My question still stands.
Then this is a poor attempt to change the subject...
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Old 05-29-2011, 09:10 PM
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Same with logic. Nothing is 100% accurate.
There are things that are 100% accurate. Takes time and effort to prove them as such.

Tim L, matter has always been, in various forms. So has energy. What we have to do as humans is realize the concept of time is something WE have created.
It is not universal and does not apply to the cosmos.

I recommend some deeper study and reading of the cosmological argument.
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Old 05-29-2011, 09:26 PM
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There are things that are 100% accurate. Takes time and effort to prove them as such.

Tim L, matter has always been, in various forms. So has energy. What we have to do as humans is realize the concept of time is something WE have created.
It is not universal and does not apply to the cosmos.

I recommend some deeper study and reading of the cosmological argument.
So, when will you release your perpetual motion machine to the public?
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Old 05-29-2011, 09:35 PM
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There are things that are 100% accurate. Takes time and effort to prove them as such.

Tim L, matter has always been, in various forms. So has energy. What we have to do as humans is realize the concept of time is something WE have created.
It is not universal and does not apply to the cosmos.

I recommend some deeper study and reading of the cosmological argument.
Nothing can be proven. Study that.
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Old 05-29-2011, 09:41 PM
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What's ridiculous is the God of the gaps argumentation. Doesn't matter if you call it supernatural, intelligence, God, whatever.

Tim you still haven't answered the question that I have asked twice now.
Whatever? You go Atlas! Nice job!
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