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  #1  
Old 06-28-2011, 07:13 PM
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Default Deputy cleared by three review panels for shooting 74 year old pastor...WA state

http://www.policeone.com/investigati...Wash-shooting/

Quote:
The internal probe officially concluded the matter after sheriff's officials reached the same conclusions as the Spokane County prosecutor's office and the sheriff's 12-member Citizen Advisory Board.

Knezovich said Hirzel, who has been working desk duty helping detectives, is now free to rejoin his patrol duties anytime between today and September.
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Old 06-29-2011, 08:55 AM
Twenty five ought six Twenty five ought six is offline
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A relevant detail that is omitted is whether the deputy was in uniform. Article says he was in an "unmarked patrol car", so who knows what that means (beyond the obvious).
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Old 06-29-2011, 09:40 AM
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Another relevant detail is that there was but one side of the story told and that story was not supported by all the evidence available.
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Old 06-29-2011, 09:49 AM
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Since dead men tell no tales, there are no witnesses and there are no contradictions (other than a possible missing bruise) between the available evidence and his story - we will have to assume the officers account is correct.

That being said, it looks like a justifiable shoot.

My only question would be to the legality of disarming someone in Washington state when they have a lawful right to be where they are and carry a firearm. Since the article makes it sound like the man approached the car with the gun in his hand I would imagine that the officer could make the case that he initially had the right to disarm the man .

After introductions were made - "I'm a cop" - "I live there and we have problems with theft" - and the gun went in the waistband, I'm unsure about the need or legality of disarming the man.

Anybody familiar with some Washington state court law?
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:01 AM
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If a civilian had done the shooting would he have been treated differently?
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Xzuatl View Post
If a civilian had done the shooting would he have been treated differently?
That's what I was thinking. Sounds like both men had a justifiable fear of their safety. So what if he had shot the cop first? I have a feeling the results of the investigation would be slightly different.

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Originally Posted by Twenty five ought six View Post
A relevant detail that is omitted is whether the deputy was in uniform. Article says he was in an "unmarked patrol car", so who knows what that means (beyond the obvious).
According to this article he was in uniform:

http://www.kxly.com/news/28326785/detail.html

Not sure how that corresponds with the other article saying he had the wrong badge.

Either way why was the cop there? Why did he decide to hit the guy with a baton after the man put his gun away?
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:18 AM
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Either way why was the cop there? Why did he decide to hit the guy with a baton after the man put his gun away?
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/201...tors-shooting/

That article says that he was filling out an accident report.

The officer is quoted as saying that he hit the man with the baton because he wouldn't comply. It does not state exactly why he felt the man had to comply - which takes me back to the legality of the whole thing.

For example, in Georgia, LEO do not have the right to disarm you for the sole reason that you have a gun. Other states laws are different - as may be the case in Washington.

*Edit to give the case law before someone asks for a cite*
see State v. Jones

Last edited by Bhrama; 06-29-2011 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Bhrama View Post
That article says that he was filling out an accident report.

The officer is quoted as saying that he hit the man with the baton because he wouldn't comply. It does not state exactly why he felt the man had to comply - which takes me back to the legality of the whole thing.

For example, in Georgia, LEO do not have the right to disarm you for the sole reason that you have a gun. Other states laws are different - as may be the case in Washington.
Clearly the cop thought it was a safety issue, the guy didn't just have a gun he was threatening the cop with it. So the cop probably had a right to disarm him.

However, I think striking him in the leg with a baton was a pretty poor approach. Cop seems to have caused the confrontation then escalated it to the point of some one getting killed. But he had no other choice. So its all good. Interestingly, this same cop seems to have choked another suspect to death.
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:48 AM
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Okay. I don't get it. The guy put his gun in his waistband and the cop hits him with a baton. What would you do at that point? This in an older gentleman that probably couldn't defend himself bare handed, the reason for carrying, and this cop hauls off and hits him with a baton. Please explain that course of action. I probably would have acted in self defense also.
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Lukikus2 View Post
Okay. I don't get it. The guy put his gun in his waistband and the cop hits him with a baton. What would you do at that point? This in an older gentleman that probably couldn't defend himself bare handed, the reason for carrying, and this cop hauls off and hits him with a baton. Please explain that course of action. I probably would have acted in self defense also.
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Old 06-29-2011, 11:42 AM
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So how is a citizen supposed to know if you're a real police officer when you're wearing the wrong badge and you're in an unmarked police car?

Gee officer, you have a county x badge and we're in couty y. Guess I should just beleive you're real though because you're in a set of clothes that look like you might be official?
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Old 06-29-2011, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twenty five ought six View Post
A relevant detail that is omitted is whether the deputy was in uniform. Article says he was in an "unmarked patrol car", so who knows what that means (beyond the obvious).

And ...

Quote:
Hirzel told investigators he then struck Creach on the outside of the left knee with a police baton, although the autopsy examination found no corresponding bruising on Creach's leg.
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Old 06-29-2011, 12:52 PM
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Ahh it's a zen question! If a leo kills a person and there is nobody around to see it, is it a crime?
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Old 06-29-2011, 01:06 PM
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"Deputy Brian Hirzel followed all departmental policies and procedures during the Aug. 25 encounter ..."

Move along, nothing to see here.
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Old 06-29-2011, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UYD4L View Post
Clearly the cop thought it was a safety issue, the guy didn't just have a gun he was threatening the cop with it. So the cop probably had a right to disarm him.
This is what I would like to see in the record one way or the other. LEO (in GA anyway) can't just declare a man with a gun a safety issue and therefore disarm him without RAS.

Initially, it doesn't say that he he threatened the officer, but you seem to be able to infer that he had the gun in his hand. I'm not sure if gun in hand qualifies as threatening but I'm sure the LEO could make that case and I may not disagree. That being said, the LEO didn't think he was threatening enough to shoot him when the gun was out.

After introductions were made and the gun was put into the waistband at the man's back I would think that the "safety hazard" level was lowered. So legality at that point to disarm the man was what I was questioning.
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:10 PM
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Struck him on the left knee. Was the Cop ambidextrous? Baton in one hand pistol in the other. Or did he suddenly drop the baton and arm himself like a superhero when he saw the handle? I don't buy any of it. There is more missing info along with the misinfo.

If no one is around to see it, the truth can be told or not. Vacation was priority anyway.
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:29 PM
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Vacation was priority anyway.
Right. You kill a guy but don't let that get in the way of your vacation plans. I can hear it now. Chief to officer "No, don't worry about anything, we've got it handled, just go on and have a good time".

Is it policy to shoot to kill and not to just wound and disarm?
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:32 PM
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Ability, Jeopardy,opportunity
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:51 PM
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Yep, jeopardy is the question here that is supported only by the statement of the officer who has removed any possible statement to the contrary.
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:53 PM
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Ability, Jeopardy,opportunity
"Jeopardy: The assailant must be behaving in such a manner that a reasonable person, knowing what you know at the time, would conclude that he is placing you in jeopardy. In some jurisdictions this is also known as motive."

"However, Creach eventually placed the gun in the back waistband of his pants."

Seems to me the jeopardy part wasn't there. If I'm not mistaken the ability and opportunity part are present in all police stops where the citizen is armed.
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Old 06-29-2011, 03:00 PM
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Ability, Jeopardy,opportunity
Very broad word. The PO was cleared of wrong doing or lets say an unjustifiable killing. So be it. But he was on private property and the victim claimed he was armed because of recent robberies. In my mind one whom swears "to protect and serve", the oppurtunity of deadly force was already over. I doubt this is the last we hear on this case.
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Old 06-29-2011, 05:15 PM
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We must be reading different articles. I could swear the one I read said he reached to the back again after refusing to comply. Where the weapon was. Im not stumping for the cop, I wasnt there, just like you. Would it have been so terrible to follow the officers orders in this tense and dangerous situation untill it could be sorted out.

So what if he was on private property. 90% of your calls are on private property. Why is it that the victim claims are all legite and the officers are not. Do you think just because the victim said he was armed because of recent incidents makes him a less threat. The opportunity of a deadly threat was not over untill the "person" was unarmed and under control. I wish I had a dollar for every person that swore to God they were innocent.

30 yrs. in the business and if an officer draws on me for any reason im going to follow his instructions without fail untill it's resolved. I dont need a freshly pressed uniform and a shiny patrol car with flashing lights. Like you said, what a reasonable person would think.
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Old 06-29-2011, 05:25 PM
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Seems to me like this situation should have been defused by the officer. The officer said that the land owner put his weapon away. When he did that, the land owner signaled that the confrontation had ended.

I doubt that the land owner was responsible for escalating the confrontation further. Had he wanted to harm the officer he would never have put his weapon away and would have retained the advantage that was already his.
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Old 06-29-2011, 05:51 PM
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seems to and I doubt mean I wasnt there. I find it incredible your slogan at the bottom of your post. Is that a joke or you really think that.
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Old 06-29-2011, 06:21 PM
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If you go around brandishing weapons, you better be prepared to use them. I understand wanting to protect your property but when you confront people with a weapon, unlike TV the outcome is never predictable. Had the old man concealed his weapon and just ask the cop what he was doing, instead of rushing on scene armed, he would probably still be alive.
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