Madman and Blaise Pascal....

ambush80 · Aug 2, 2016

The Madman is in the house!!!!

"Originally Posted by Madman View Post
What are the odds "any choice of god" being correct?"

This seemed like the most objective source I could find:

"Over 2,500"

https://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Gods-Over-Deities-World/dp/0816029091

Here's a compiled list, though it says that that's not all of them:

https://www.rationalresponders.com/a_big_list_of_gods_but_nowhere_near_all_of_them

Odds of picking the right one? Approximately 1 in 2,500. Of course the option that no god(s) exist should be factored in, as well as the possibility of any permutation of some of them existing. Looks like long odds.

JB0704 · Aug 3, 2016

Hope he sees this one.....it'll be a good'n to follow

Madman · Aug 3, 2016

ambush80 said:
The Madman is in the house!!!!

"Originally Posted by Madman View Post
What are the odds "any choice of god" being correct?"

This seemed like the most objective source I could find:

"Over 2,500"

https://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Gods-Over-Deities-World/dp/0816029091

Here's a compiled list, though it says that that's not all of them:

https://www.rationalresponders.com/a_big_list_of_gods_but_nowhere_near_all_of_them

Odds of picking the right one? Approximately 1 in 2,500. Of course the option that no god(s) exist should be factored in, as well as the possibility of any permutation of some of them existing. Looks like long odds.

It may be worse than that, the Hindus alone have about 3.5 million to choose from, so just for jun let's say we write the name of each god, that humans worship, on a paper and throw it in a bucket, stir it up REAL good, and pull out a name. By chance you would have 1 in 3,502,500 of pulling out the particular god you worship.

Correct?

ambush80 · Aug 3, 2016

Madman said:
It may be worse than that, the Hindus alone have about 3.5 million to choose from, so just for jun let's say we write the name of each god, that humans worship, on a paper and throw it in a bucket, stir it up REAL good, and pull out a name. By chance you would have 1 in 3,502,500 of pulling out the particular god you worship.

Correct?

Then you have to consider the combinatorial permutations, but that is correct. There will be a 1 in (whatever that immense number is) chance that you get it right.

Madman · Aug 3, 2016

I read the page:
https://www.rationalresponders.com/a_big_list_of_gods_but_nowhere_near_all_of_them

Some pretty revealing comments. One I liked was from an "atheist" who claimed he did not believe in the Christian God for the same reason we do not believe in other religion's gods.

Here is why I don't believe in some of the other religion's gods.

Isaiah 44:9-20

So that takes a lot out of the 3,502,500.

ambush80 · Aug 3, 2016

Madman said:
I read the page:
https://www.rationalresponders.com/a_big_list_of_gods_but_nowhere_near_all_of_them

Some pretty revealing comments. One I liked was from an "atheist" who claimed he did not believe in the Christian God for the same reason we do not believe in other religion's gods.

Here is why I don't believe in some of the other religion's gods.

Isaiah 44:9-20

Yes. You have a book that you believe is telling the truth. Basically you are saying that you have some insider knowledge that eliminates the possibility of those other gods, essentially making the odds of yours being 100%.

We/they (believers of a different stripe) simply disagree with the value of your "insider knowledge". It's always of a nature such that "You won't understand until you believe", assuming that the error is with the searcher, as a "proper" search must always lead to the same conclusion you have come to, or the more logically consistent "You can't understand because you weren't meant to".

Tell me in detail how you were convinced so clearly that you could do nothing else but helplessly believe.

As an aside, I realized that strangely enough, one of the biggest red flags to me about people of faith is their unshakable conviction (that goes for most things). I would believe that someone has truly put in some hard yards if they said "I could be wrong".

Madman · Aug 3, 2016

A quick note on Paschal's wager. The history behind that is pretty much as follows:

It was not a theological argument, people were always asking why they should believe in a god.

Paschal had a journal of thoughts that were not published until after his death, I believe they were called "The Reflections", anyway in one reflection he penned;

"If you don’t know if God exist then your “best” bet is that he does. If you are wrong then you have lost nothing."

I cannot say I agree with the logic if carried out to it's logical conclusion, because if God does not exist then you have lost out on a lot of sensual pleasures in this relatively short life.

ambush80 · Aug 3, 2016

Your edit mirrors my post exactly and succinctly.

Madman · Aug 3, 2016

ambush80 said:
Yes. You have a book that you believe is telling the truth. Basically you are saying that you have some insider knowledge that eliminates the possibility of those other gods, essentially making the odds of yours being 100%.

We/they (believers of a different stripe) simply disagree with the value of your "insider knowledge". It's always of a nature such that "You won't understand until you believe", assuming that the error is with the searcher, as a "proper" search must always lead to the same conclusion you have come to, or the more logically consistent "You can't understand because you weren't meant to".

Tell me in detail how you were convinced so clearly that you could do nothing else but helplessly believe.

As an aside, I realized that strangely enough, one of the biggest red flags to me about people of faith is their unshakable conviction (that goes for most things). I would believe that someone has truly put in some hard yards if they said "I could be wrong".

There is a lot in there. I would like to start somewhere considerably more basic.

ambush80 · Aug 3, 2016

Madman said:
A quick note on Paschal's wager. The history behind that is pretty much as follows:

It was not a theological argument, people were always asking why they should believe in a god.

Paschal had a journal of thoughts that were not published until after his death, I believe they were called "The Reflections", anyway in one reflection he penned;

"If you don’t know if God exist then your “best” bet is that he does. If you are wrong then you have lost nothing."

I cannot say I agree with the logic if carried out to it's logical conclusion, because if God does not exist then you have lost out on a lot of sensual pleasures in this relatively short life.

It's not just that (which could be significant). It shaped the way that you view your place in the universe and how you interacted with it, including the people and creatures. How many times have you heard people say that they won't hang out with their muslim/atheist/homosexual/ family members because of their faith. I won't even bring up the things that faith based belief can cause someone to do.

ambush80 · Aug 3, 2016

Madman said:
There is a lot in there. I would like to start somewhere considerably more basic.

You start.

Madman · Aug 3, 2016

ambush80 said:
It's not just that (which could be significant). It shaped the way that you view your place in the universe and how you interacted with it, including the people and creatures. How many times have you heard people say that they won't hang out with their muslim/atheist/homosexual/ family members because of their faith. I won't even bring up the things that faith based belief can cause someone to do.

Don't confuse people with Christ.

Luke 7:
33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ 35 Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.”

We need TRUE teaching. He does not call us to neglect them, he calls us not to enter into their lifestyle.

Madman · Aug 3, 2016

ambush80 said:
You start.

First let me say, could I be wrong about my beliefs? Of course I could be wrong about my beliefs; however I also have come believe that the chance of that is so infinitesimally small it really does not exist.

I would also like to add that I believe my early upbringing was not so different from yours, I attended church and heard cute stories about how Jesus loves me, big fish, and people being turned into pillars of salt, How Christ died on the cross for my sins, because after all I was terrible sinner. I do remember one time while visiting my grandmother, the preacher preached me into he11 and I had no way out, that affected me for many weeks.

And I will say, am I wrong about some of my beliefs, probably yes, but I have only been refining them for about 20 years, so I need more work.

I did not start with the Christian Bible as my basis for belief just as I did not begin my elementary school math with integral calculous or finite math, so just as I started school with addition and subtraction and my multiplication tables I started my spiritual life wondering if there is a god.

Madman · Aug 3, 2016

ambush80 said:
Tell me in detail how you were convinced so clearly that you could do nothing else but helplessly believe.

I don't helplessly believe, I believe it is the most reasonable belief.

1 Peter 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

Madman · Aug 3, 2016

ambush80 said:
It shaped the way that you view your place in the universe and how you interacted with it, including the people and creatures.

EXACTLY!!! But I did not come to how it SHOULD shape my view of the universe, how I SHOULD interact with it, and how I SHOULD treat and care for people, creatures, and the environment, until I was considerably farther along on my journey.

ambush80 · Aug 3, 2016

Madman said:
First let me say, could I be wrong about my beliefs? Of course I could be wrong about my beliefs; however I also have come believe that the chance of that is so infinitesimally small it really does not exist.

I would also like to add that I believe my early upbringing was not so different from yours, I attended church and heard cute stories about how Jesus loves me, big fish, and people being turned into pillars of salt, How Christ died on the cross for my sins, because after all I was terrible sinner. I do remember one time while visiting my grandmother, the preacher preached me into he11 and I had no way out, that affected me for many weeks.

And I will say, am I wrong about some of my beliefs, probably yes, but I have only been refining them for about 20 years, so I need more work.

I did not start with the Christian Bible as my basis for belief just as I did not begin my elementary school math with integral calculous or finite math, so just as I started school with addition and subtraction and my multiplication tables I started my spiritual life wondering if there is a god.

Do you mind if we hang on the blue for a while? What is your evidence? Is it revelation?

660griz · Aug 3, 2016

Madman said:
I started my spiritual life wondering if there is a god.

Then what happened. What made you decide for sure there was a God?
What made you decide on the Christian God?
What about the other millions of Gods turned you off?

Was it a "What's it gonna hurt to believe what the majority believe?", moment?
I don't mean to put words in your mouth, your quote from Paschal opened the door a little.

Madman · Aug 3, 2016

ambush80 said:
Do you mind if we hang on the blue for a while? What is your evidence? Is it revelation?

Sure.

Romans 1:20 "For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

1) The very existence of anything. Nothing comes from nothing.
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

2) information science. Code/language is evidence of a code writer. The human gnome is a code.
"Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them."

3) Natural law. Moral law. Everyone has a sense of the moral law, where did that come from?
Matthew 7:12 So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

4) How could I leave out thermodynamics. Everything moves from a state of order to a state of disorder. What wound it up? What turned it lose?
Isaiah 51:6 "Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look at the earth beneath;
for the heavens vanish like smoke,
the earth will wear out like a garment,
and they who dwell in it will die in like manner,"

I don't see the belief in an all powerful, self sufficient, being as a revelation, I believe it is evident.

ambush80 · Aug 3, 2016

Madman said:
Sure.

Romans 1:20 "For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

1) The very existence of anything. Nothing comes from nothing.
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

2) information science. Code/language is evidence of a code writer. The human gnome is a code.
"Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them."

3) Natural law. Moral law. Everyone has a sense of the moral law, where did that come from?
Matthew 7:12 So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

4) How could I leave out thermodynamics. Everything moves from a state of order to a state of disorder. What wound it up? What turned it lose?
Isaiah 51:6 "Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look at the earth beneath;
for the heavens vanish like smoke,
the earth will wear out like a garment,
and they who dwell in it will die in like manner,"

I don't see the belief in an all powerful, self sufficient, being as a revelation, I believe it is evident.

What do you think of the notion that humans are programmed by evolution to seek god(s) (agency, really)? Is that possible? And if so, does it say anything about the veracity of said god(s)?

Madman · Aug 3, 2016

ambush80 said:
What do you think of the notion that humans are programmed by evolution to seek god(s) (agency, really)? Is that possible? And if so, does it say anything about the veracity of said god(s)?

I believe humans are programmed by God to desire better.
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

I believe we are the only creatures who live in despair.

We have been given the capacity to understand our condition, pain, suffering, illness, guilt, and we desire a life without it, and can imagine a life without it, but we are incapable of a final solution in of our self.

Madman and Blaise Pascal....

Senior Member

I Gots Goats

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Similar threads

Share this page