5rds. .38spl or 8rds .380

[redlevel]

This has been an informative thread. It got me reading and I found this info in an article called ammunition for self defense. Being on the net doesn't make it true but it's interesting.

.380 ACP (9mm Short, 9x17mm, 9mm Kurz)

Now we're getting into some decent stopping power. The three or four best .380 JHP rounds have better stopping power than ANY bullet fired out of 2" barrel .38 Special snub-nose. All of the Big Five make good hollowpoints for this caliber. The Remington 88 grain JHP is the most reliably-feeding hollowpoint but slightly less effective than the Hydra-shok or Cor-Bon. Reliability is crucial, and thus you must test the rounds before carrying.

I recommend the following two cartridges above all others:

-Federal 90 gr. Hydra-shok (P380HS1 H) - the best standard-pressure .380 JHP load, period.
-Cor-Bon 90 gr. JHP - the most powerful .380 hollowpoint, bar none.

Do you have a link to that article?

The Cor-bon load he touts may indeed have more stopping power than any bullet from a 2" snub-nose, but if so, it defies the laws of physics.:roll eyes:

The factory provided figures for the Cor-bon load, fired from a 2.5" test barrel are 90 grains @ 1050 fps and 220 ftlbs of energy.
http://www.shopcorbon.com/Self-Defe...ORBON-Self-Defense-JHP/SD38090-20/100/Product

The factory provided figures from Buffalo Bore for the .38 special +P 158 grain gas-checked lead bhp, fired from a S&W Model 60, are 1040fps and 379 ftlb of energy.

If I choose to carry my 3" j-frame, those figures jump to 1143fps and 458 ftlb.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108

As I said in an earlier post, there are at least two threads on the S&W forum where respected members corroborated the BB claims using their own guns and chronograph equipment, so I don't think these figures can be labeled as "hollow claims."

How can 90 grains @ 220ftlb provide better stopping power than 158 grains @ 379ftlb?

 

[tv_racin_fan]

Germag that is a good idea. I just purchased a couple of Kholsters with the intent of turning them into a copy of the Crossbreed Ohai which is affixed to pretty much anything with velcro. I got them to use in my wifes purse and in my Mexpedition Jumbo and I was thinking about some velco in the van somewhere.

Tho I may just grab some Kydex and mold myself a couple of Kydex holsters for the car.. shucks I may as well do that for the wifes purse and my jumbo as well. Then just use the Kholsters as they were intended, which by the way I had intended to give em a try at... so far they seem to work just fine tho I do need a much better belt.

 

[dtala]

38+P all day long

if you need more than 5 rounds, you need a shotgun.....

 

[weagle]

OK. Whatever you say. You have your version of the real world, I have mine. Have you been in Law Enforcement and seen what really happens, or do you just rely on what you read? Trust me...not everything gets in the NRA rags....only the ones that turned out good for the citizen.

Not on topic, but since you asked. I make a living as a Law Enforcement Firearms and ammunition distributor. Most of my customer contacts are LE firearms instructors, SWAT commanders and LE command staff. They have a lot of experience and I tend to trust opinions of those that have been there and done that.

I devote quite a bit of time, effort, energy and resources supporting training classes, gun safety courses, youth shooting programs and shooting competitions.

I feel strongly that every responsible, law abiding adult that is willing to defend themselves or others should be armed whenever possible.

There's only one real world. Stop by and say hello sometimes.

 

[Davans]

Not on topic, but since you asked. I make a living as a Law Enforcement Firearms and ammunition distributor. Most of my customer contacts are LE firearms instructors, SWAT commanders and LE command staff. They have a lot of experience and I tend to trust opinions of those that have been there and done that.

I devote quite a bit of time, effort, energy and resources supporting training classes, gun safety courses, youth shooting programs and shooting competitions.

I feel strongly that every responsible, law abiding adult that is willing to defend themselves or others should be armed whenever possible.

There's only one real world. Stop by and say hello sometimes.

I want Your job...! I completely agree. Thanks for the input.

 

[GunnSmokeer]

A lot of garbage and urination contests in this old thread, but since I've been shopping for a micro sized .380 pistol for several months, and just bought one, I thought I'd post here instead of starting a new thread about my .380 ammo choices after having tested several such guns and been ammo shopping for defensive ammo (to be used later--right now I'm still breaking-in my gun and getting familiar with it using FMJ range ammo).

A video called "380 ACP Hornady Critical Defense Ammo Test" from June of 2018 from the All Outdoors YouTube channel shows that 2 out of 3 of the Hornady Critical Defense Rounds they fired did expand and still reached 15" and 16" deep into calibrated ordnance gelatin blocks (after shooting thru the 4 layers of denim covering the front). The one shot that did not expand penetrated 21.5" deep, which is consistent with other other people have found in their gelatin tests with FMJ ammo in .380 caliber fired from tiny-barreled guns (about 2.7" barrel).

LuckyGunner has an exhaustive database of ballistics testing of several different popular handgun caliber ammo, with several popular loads being tested for each caliber. They used a Glock 42 with a 3.25" barrel. I wish they'd used a smaller gun with a 2.75" barrel. But that extra half-inch probably only adds 25 fps to the velocity.

They also say that the Hornady Critical Defense, 90-grain bullet, penetrates well (their 5-shot test averaged 13 inches in gel ) and expands to about .50 caliber.
All 5 of theirs expanded. But I assume they were shooting bare gelatin, not covered in 4 layers of denim like the All Outdoors video did.

Horady's 90-grain XTP bullet that doesn't have the red rubber plug in the nose had one failure to expand. 4 out of 5 expanded nicely, and for those the penetration was adequate.

Mag-Tech 85 gr. "Guardian Gold" ammo expanded even better, up to nearly .60 caliber, but that dropped the penetration to around 10 inches.
Speer Gold Dot .380 ammo penetrated 11 inches and expanded to 50 caliber.

Two loads by Remington failed to expand much of the time, but they penetrated deep, around 19 or 20 inches.

Three (3) loads by Winchester (Silvertip, PDX, and "Train-and-Defend") all expanded 5/5 times, opening up to a big .62 or .63" size, and still had respectable penetration of about 9 inches.


https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP


THEREFORE, I CONCLUDE THAT IF SUCH AMMO FEEDS RELIABLY IN YOUR GUN AND HITS TO ABOUT THE SAME POINT-OF-IMPACT AS YOUR TRAINING AMMO, use it. It's good ammo for defense.

*************************************************


Now, let's see what Luckygunner's tests show about the .38 SPECIAL, specifically their testing with a 2" barreled revolver (Kimber K6s). Their summary of the test says that the slight velocity advantage of the 4" barrel Ruger revolver did not change the performance of most loads tested. The ones that failed to expand would fail in either gun, and the best loads that worked great in the 4" revolver were also among the best loads for the two-inch snubby.
Some of what I think are the best .38 snubby loads tested:

Federal 130 gr, HST Micro bullet: Penetrates 13" and expands to .73 caliber.

Hornady 110 gr. Critical Defense: Penetrates 13", expands to .48 caliber.
(Hornady's other load, the 125 gr. "XTP" bullet, failed to expand at all from either the 2" gun or the 4" gun. The velocity of that load was also 30-40 f.p.s. lower than their Critical Defense rounds).

Remington's 125 gr. Golden Saber +P load only had a 2" bbl. velocity of 877 f.p.s., but the slugs expanded to .63 caliber AND still penetrated nearly 14" deep.

Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot "Short Barrel" load had 4 out of 5 bullets expand well, and the average for all 5 was that they expanded to .44 caliber and penetrated 13.5" deep.
Winchester's 130 gr. Train & Defend round did great out of both guns, though the 4" barrel boosted the velocity by 70 F.P.S. more. Even from the 2" barrel, these bullets expanded to an average .59" ) and penetrated 13" deep.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

For the .38 special loads that NEVER expanded, and thus performed like a FMJ or semi-wadcutter bullet, the 125 grain loads (either +P or standard pressure, didn't matter) would go about 17" deep into the gelatin.
The non-expanding 158 gr. loads would go 19" deep.

*****************************************************


THEREFORE, I think the .38 special still has an advantage over the .380 ACP, but it's not enough of an advantage in my opinion to overcome 3 extra rounds of ammo capacity, if you're comparing 5 shots to 8 shots.

(For me, my .380 will only hold 7 rounds. Six in the mag and one in the chamber. But that's 2 rounds more than the .38 snubby holds, and thus a 40% greater ammo capacity. And while MY little .380 doesn't have a nicer (shorter, lighter) trigger pull than MY S&W revolver ( which is from the Performance Center), many of the new .380 pistols on the market do have both better trigger pulls and better sights than a typical .38 snubby small-frame revolver. So if you add "shootability" as a consideration, the .380 would be an even better choice. (Assuming both guns are equally reliable. Mine's not. So for me, the .38 special still wins.)

 

[nmurph]

I carry a .380 Bodyguard loaded with CD. I can put it in my front pocket and no one knows it's there. I've never had a FTF problem with either the CD , or the Blazer FMJ I use for practice.

 

[ryanh487]

Out of a 2" barrel 380 is close enough not to matter. And my LCP is much easier to control and shoot than the 642 I used to have was, and is also lighter and easier to carry. I load it with 99 grain federal HST. Heaviest round available, the best penetration and most consistent expansion.

 

[Ruger#3]

6 years later nothing’s changed for me, 9mm Glock daily or .380 Bodyguard with extra mag when I need absolutely no printing. Keep putting the rounds down range so hitting your target won’t be the variable.

 

[Balrog]

I would prefer the 380, even if the number of rounds was equal. I can get faster and more accurate follow up shots than I can with a snub nose revolver. Its also quicker to reload. I don't shoot J frames well, and therefore avoid them. Others may feel differently, and that is OK, just telling what works and doesnt work for me.

I consider the performance of 380 and 38 Special both marginal. Yes, 38 Special is better on paper, but not sure how much of a difference it is going to translate into in a shooting situation.

 

[GeorgiaBob]

A Ruger LCP in good hideaway holster (like pocket or ankle) with 6+1 and a spare mag with 11 more rounds (check Midway), all loaded hollow point, makes a very good argument in a close in self defense situation. If that LCP has a laser sight mounted and zeroed, "close in" becomes something like 25 feet or more with deadly accuracy.

I have no problem with wheel guns, and a .38 can take a bigger load, delivering more kinetic impact per round than a 380ACP. The decision is yours. 380 is easier to hide, usually lighter weight, and faster to reload. A .38 is solid and hits (a little) harder, but not as easy to conceal.

 

[nmurph]

My better half carries an Airweight in her bag.

 

[JohnK]

I saw a utube 380 video using sig sauer ammo, lcp2, where he wrapped a bag of oranges between 2 racks of ribs, held together by a tshirt. Fired 6 shots at 10 yards and all were complete exits, where it hit ribs it broke them and still exited. I have a lcp2 and a couple of j frames...I shoot the 380 much faster and more accurate so that's what's in my pocket.

 

[Jester896]

all I have to say is I miss my conversations with germag

 

[mark-7mag]

A lot of garbage and urination contests in this old thread, but since I've been shopping for a micro sized .380 pistol for several months, and just bought one, I thought I'd post here instead of starting a new thread about my .380 ammo choices after having tested several such guns and been ammo shopping for defensive ammo (to be used later--right now I'm still breaking-in my gun and getting familiar with it using FMJ range ammo).

A video called "380 ACP Hornady Critical Defense Ammo Test" from June of 2018 from the All Outdoors YouTube channel shows that 2 out of 3 of the Hornady Critical Defense Rounds they fired did expand and still reached 15" and 16" deep into calibrated ordnance gelatin blocks (after shooting thru the 4 layers of denim covering the front). The one shot that did not expand penetrated 21.5" deep, which is consistent with other other people have found in their gelatin tests with FMJ ammo in .380 caliber fired from tiny-barreled guns (about 2.7" barrel).

LuckyGunner has an exhaustive database of ballistics testing of several different popular handgun caliber ammo, with several popular loads being tested for each caliber. They used a Glock 42 with a 3.25" barrel. I wish they'd used a smaller gun with a 2.75" barrel. But that extra half-inch probably only adds 25 fps to the velocity.

They also say that the Hornady Critical Defense, 90-grain bullet, penetrates well (their 5-shot test averaged 13 inches in gel ) and expands to about .50 caliber.
All 5 of theirs expanded. But I assume they were shooting bare gelatin, not covered in 4 layers of denim like the All Outdoors video did.

Horady's 90-grain XTP bullet that doesn't have the red rubber plug in the nose had one failure to expand. 4 out of 5 expanded nicely, and for those the penetration was adequate.

Mag-Tech 85 gr. "Guardian Gold" ammo expanded even better, up to nearly .60 caliber, but that dropped the penetration to around 10 inches.
Speer Gold Dot .380 ammo penetrated 11 inches and expanded to 50 caliber.

Two loads by Remington failed to expand much of the time, but they penetrated deep, around 19 or 20 inches.

Three (3) loads by Winchester (Silvertip, PDX, and "Train-and-Defend") all expanded 5/5 times, opening up to a big .62 or .63" size, and still had respectable penetration of about 9 inches.


https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP


THEREFORE, I CONCLUDE THAT IF SUCH AMMO FEEDS RELIABLY IN YOUR GUN AND HITS TO ABOUT THE SAME POINT-OF-IMPACT AS YOUR TRAINING AMMO, use it. It's good ammo for defense.

*************************************************


Now, let's see what Luckygunner's tests show about the .38 SPECIAL, specifically their testing with a 2" barreled revolver (Kimber K6s). Their summary of the test says that the slight velocity advantage of the 4" barrel Ruger revolver did not change the performance of most loads tested. The ones that failed to expand would fail in either gun, and the best loads that worked great in the 4" revolver were also among the best loads for the two-inch snubby.
Some of what I think are the best .38 snubby loads tested:

Federal 130 gr, HST Micro bullet: Penetrates 13" and expands to .73 caliber.

Hornady 110 gr. Critical Defense: Penetrates 13", expands to .48 caliber.
(Hornady's other load, the 125 gr. "XTP" bullet, failed to expand at all from either the 2" gun or the 4" gun. The velocity of that load was also 30-40 f.p.s. lower than their Critical Defense rounds).

Remington's 125 gr. Golden Saber +P load only had a 2" bbl. velocity of 877 f.p.s., but the slugs expanded to .63 caliber AND still penetrated nearly 14" deep.

Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot "Short Barrel" load had 4 out of 5 bullets expand well, and the average for all 5 was that they expanded to .44 caliber and penetrated 13.5" deep.
Winchester's 130 gr. Train & Defend round did great out of both guns, though the 4" barrel boosted the velocity by 70 F.P.S. more. Even from the 2" barrel, these bullets expanded to an average .59" ) and penetrated 13" deep.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

For the .38 special loads that NEVER expanded, and thus performed like a FMJ or semi-wadcutter bullet, the 125 grain loads (either +P or standard pressure, didn't matter) would go about 17" deep into the gelatin.
The non-expanding 158 gr. loads would go 19" deep.

*****************************************************


THEREFORE, I think the .38 special still has an advantage over the .380 ACP, but it's not enough of an advantage in my opinion to overcome 3 extra rounds of ammo capacity, if you're comparing 5 shots to 8 shots.

(For me, my .380 will only hold 7 rounds. Six in the mag and one in the chamber. But that's 2 rounds more than the .38 snubby holds, and thus a 40% greater ammo capacity. And while MY little .380 doesn't have a nicer (shorter, lighter) trigger pull than MY S&W revolver ( which is from the Performance Center), many of the new .380 pistols on the market do have both better trigger pulls and better sights than a typical .38 snubby small-frame revolver. So if you add "shootability" as a consideration, the .380 would be an even better choice. (Assuming both guns are equally reliable. Mine's not. So for me, the .38 special still wins.)

So which pistol did you end up getting?

 

[GunnSmokeer]

I got a Kel-Tec P3AT, but I don't think it's the best microsized 380 on the market. I got it because it was an amazing deal --the gun in like new condition with a red dot laser attached already was only $199.

My brother got a Kahr CW 380 and his also has a laser unit attached, but he chose the Crimson Trace laserguard.

I think his is the better gun and a better laser, and he has real sights on the top of his slide. My iron sights are a pathetic joke .

His gun has a wider trigger guard opening and therefore the laser unit that clamps around the front and bottom of the trigger guard does not eat up valuable space that you need to put your finger in the opening. For my Kel-Tec, that is an issue .


But, we both have .38 spl small revolvers for waist / holstered carry. These .380's are just the pocket -carry guns.

 

[hayseed_theology]

I can see it both ways.

I carried a P3AT for a while. I hated the sights (or lack thereof). Very easy to conceal though.

For almost a decade now, I have carried a J-Frame (S&W 340PD) with Crimson Trace grips. So I guess my position is that, for me, 5 rounds of .357 Mag is better than 7 rounds of .380 ACP. My 340PD only weighs 11.4 oz, so it is comfortable for pocket carry. Any way you carry it, I find that the curves of a j-frame tend to conceal better than a boxy bottom feeder of similar dimensions. I will acknowledge that recoil is...uh...shall we say, "noticeable," but it is manageable if you practice with it.

I have to admit that I have been eyeing a stainless Browning 1911-380 Compact. That gun might just be sweet enough to get me back into the .380 game.

With modern ammo, I think both the .38 Spl and .380 ACP are satisfactory self-defense rounds.

 

[GunnSmokeer]

Balrog, you said you prefer the .380 because you shoot small semi-autos better than you shoot small revolvers. I agree that's a huge factor to consider.
I've got about 300 rounds thru my little KelTec P3AT now, and I'd say that I'm just as fast and almost as accurate with it at close range, out to 7 yards.

However, the trigger pull's weight is so much heavier than the gun itself (I'm guessing it's a 6-lb trigger pull on an 12-oz. pistol, when the gun is loaded and has the laser attached), I can't get good groups at distance. Even when I shoot from a supported rest on the bench, and take 5 seconds to gently squeeze off each shot with the laser dot as steady as I can hold it over the target's center, my 50-foot groups are the size of a beach ball. At 25 yards, my "group" is as wide as a man: shoulder to shoulder, chin to testicles. I could even miss.

My S&W .38 snubby, even shooting it double-action only, can easily keep its hits near the center of mass on a silhouette target at 25 yds.

 

[Dub]

Alright guys, I do appreciate the imput but there is a reason a phrased the question the way I did. Lets try a hypothetical question.
Lets just say......I have 2 identical guns....lets say revolvers.....1 is a 5 shot .38 spl. the other is an 8 shot .380. The only difference being the calibre and round count.


5-.38 or 8-.380?

For years If I was carrying light, it was a holstered 5-shot S&W 442 Airweight with +P Gold Dots. Some aftermarket VZ grips make it a peach to shoot and I had/have confidence in it.

Wife didn't initially care for it as much, because it was more difficult for her to shoot with great accuracy at the range as her little .380 LCP is. So we settled for her keeping it in a holster in her purse.

Later on I gave her a S&W Airweight 638 that she liked much better than my 442 at the range. It has a shrouded hammer that she can cock and make more accurate longer range shots. Now, she understands this isn't real world use....but simply on plinking sessions. She does well enough on the 5yd center mass assailant targets with it in double-action only mode.....but for fun can run the targets back further and get her Annie Oakley mojo working.



I appreciate all the great info posted in this thread on the various enhanced capability rounds in .380. It'd take some time to test them out in her little semi-auto. At least with the Airweight, I've taken feed issues out of the equation.


Perhaps I'll keep taking her 638 along with me on my own range sessions and keep shooting it. At some point the trigger may smooth out like my own 442. May get some funny looks though her's has pink grips on it. Test caps and a heap of dry firing may be in order.

Now...I'm a big fan of Sig Sauer Firearms and not being one that needs much of an excuss to buy a new one I started looking at the P238, ended up buying one and really liking it. ( Except for it being .380....again no offense to those that like the calibre. ) I personally don't.


The problem is that I am still struggling with her carrying a .380 as her only weapon and thought I would throw it out there for some discussion. It is fair to say I am trying to justify the change from .38 to .380. for her.

The reality is that she does not shoot the 642 well. Very snappy, not very accurate and for her she just cannot manage the SAO trigger pull. On the other hand she shoots the P238 well, she likes it. and it has a few extra rounds, plus with an extra mag...

I think i'll take WTM45's advise and have a trigger job done on one of my 642 and see the results, but at this point I think I'm going to have an issue trying to pry that p238 out of her hands.


Would you rather your wife carry a 5 shot .38 that she does not shoot accurately or an 8 shot .380 that she handles and shoot fine?

Thanks again for everyone input!

I thought the P238's were really cool. I got in trouble when I tried out the P938's, though. I simply had to have one. It didn't take many range sessions to really feel good & develop confidence in the pocket nine.

The only beef I had with the gun is when using the extended magazines as off pocket spares. I carry the spare in a pocket magazine holster and even then the pinky spacer can work its way down the magazine tube and make it difficult to lock it into the gun during reloads. Heel of the hand deliberate & forceful move takes care of it.

It handles the +P+ Federal 9BPLE carry loads with ease. Eats 'em like M&M candy.

Grippy surfaces on sides and front strap checkering.

Sigs super night sights that look just like my trusted P226's.

Great trigger.

I'm very happy with this gun. I never would have thought such capability could be had in a gun this small....and do so in my large paw.

This post has gotten a little heavy on personal preferances of the individual posters-which is all well and good-but here is a little food for thought.

Recently my job has taken me into some VERY ROUGH parts of Atlanta. One area is ranked as the #1 most deadly area of Atlanta and 5th most deadly in the nation. Luckly I don't have to go much but over the past month I've been in some places I've never even wanted to DRIVE through with out stopping. Not gonna bore you with the details but sometimes I have to spend 30 or more minutes alone outside of my vehicle completeing my work.

I'd never been in inner city ghetto conditions until now. This is a very different place to me and my personal safety is of big concern to me. People who live in these areas do not have 9-5 jobs -from the looks of things people don't work at all. People are out walking the streets continually-only comparasion I can make is like if you kicked an ant hill and all the ants crawling around-thats what it seems like just people constantly walking the streets. What you see is groups of people togather-it is very rare to see anyone walking around alone.

My thoughts are this if a person did get in a tight spot in a place like this in all likelyhood you would be attacked by a group of people (whomost likely all have guns or some sort of deadly weapon). I think unless a person had a high capacity pump shotgun loaded with slugs or buckshot or maybe an AR with several high capacity clips-there is not much that you would be able to do to keep from getting killed by a group of crimals.

Hopefully no one on this forum is ever faced with having to deal with this type of situation but my belief is with either the 5 or 8 shot gun of any caliber in this situation I don't think a person would be able to fight there way out of it. The best you might be able to hope for would be to hit center mass on several attackers before you were riddled with holes.

My apologies if anyone feels this story "hijacks" the thread-that is not the intent-it is just for people to think about.

Great observation.


Makes we want to thank the next law enforcement officer I run into. The job they are called on to do is beyond comprehension.

There are very scary places in every community and the average citizen can chose to avoid them.....our brave LEO has to face them full on.....and do so with everyone scrutinizing their every move and all the denizens of those places shooting cellphone video snippets of these moments.

Stay safe, man.

Keep your head on a swivel.

I had an incident (near incident) about 2 1/2 years ago with what would have been 3 assailants. It was clear to me what their intent was because of the way they were positioning themselves around my truck and asking for money. I have no idea what changed their minds. I was armed with a .40 Cal Glock, but I never showed them the gun. They just stopped what they were doing and all 3 walked away in the same direction like there was some sort of signal given or something. It was actually pretty weird.

I'm guessing these punks could sense that Germag was no victim on that night.

Another aspect is that here in the South, at least.....it's known that trucks are often driven by hunters. Hunters have guns and use them for sport. Hunters also tend to have guns for protection, too.

Maybe these thugs figured that out, too.


Words to be headed here from Germag.


He makes a great point about a truck gun being secure from moving around, but remain accessible. I've haven't yet addressed that really well yet in the truck I bought last year. The armrest console remains empty of clutter and a revolver stays in there inside a DeSantis Nemesis holster. On road trips, I'll pull the G19 out of my IWB holster and slide into a slim profile Garrett leather lined kydex holster clipped to the seatbelt. Comfortable, secure and easily transitioned back to the IWB holster during pit stops.

It would be better to mount one like Germag stated. I'm still kicking that idea around.

Not on topic, but since you asked. I make a living as a Law Enforcement Firearms and ammunition distributor. Most of my customer contacts are LE firearms instructors, SWAT commanders and LE command staff. They have a lot of experience and I tend to trust opinions of those that have been there and done that.

I devote quite a bit of time, effort, energy and resources supporting training classes, gun safety courses, youth shooting programs and shooting competitions.

I feel strongly that every responsible, law abiding adult that is willing to defend themselves or others should be armed whenever possible.

There's only one real world. Stop by and say hello sometimes.

Excellent post.

Well stated.

I believe now, more than ever, that we all need to be alert and armed. The world around us is getting more violent and things escalate to deadly violence very swiftly. I am very grateful that my elderly parents and my bride take things seriously and have provisions for protection.


I almost pity the thug.......almost......that tried to breech my parents home. They each have plans...and contingency plans to settle matters swiftly. I worry more about Mom out by herself than anything. Luckily Dad is there for her on any trips she needs to make.

My parents & sister were both dyed in the wool anti-gun folks 25+ years ago.

My family has had some life changing experiences that were paradigm shifts on this subject. Now, they each carry on their person and have home defense guns, too.

I'm grateful those experiences didn't find my family as victims, but were the catalysts for changing their views and embracing means of protection for themselves and others.

 

[Davans]

All other things being equal. I’ll take 8rds of .380 over 5rds of .38