A guy walks into your church ...

"He is still sovern over creation start to finish, however each individual has free will to accept or reject him."

All that effort and this is still an unintelligible statement.

Perhaps somebody with more patience than me will point it out to you.

Nice attempt at deflection though.
Not my strong suit today.
 
If we could bring back time to some point before a decision was made, could the person have decided differently? Considering God has already used his omniscience to see what that decision would be.
If God looked ahead and knew that I would cut grass today, could I have decided to cut grass yesterday?
Think of all of the future events that would have to change if we changed the events of today or yesterday.

Perhaps Jesus would not have been the Word, if Adam had not sinned. Perhaps Jesus would not have died on the cross if the Jews has accepted him as their messiah. Maybe that would have meant Saul would not be needed as Paul, and then no gospel to the Gentiles.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
The majority of Calvinist that I converse with, are just as confused as you two... in regards to this matter.
I'm not confused, I'm just playing out events that were planned for me to way back when. I suggest you take it up with God if you don't like it, because I have no control over it.
 
I'm not confused, I'm just playing out events that were planned for me to way back when. I suggest you take it up with God if you don't like it, because I have no control over it.
Do you see God in control of the events from Adam to Christ's return in 70AD? Maybe just some of the events?
Do you think man came up with a plan to not kill Jesus so God had to counter their plan with his plan "B"?

"A remnant was elected and the rest were hardened."
 
I'm not confused, I'm just playing out events that were planned for me to way back when. I suggest you take it up with God if you don't like it, because I have no control over it.
The "man after God's own heart" reacted actively as guided by the Spirit of God, and passively as guided by the Spirit of God

2Sa 12:22 He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, 'Who knows whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?'

2Sa 16:11 ... Leave him alone, and let him curse, for the LORD has told him to.
2Sa 16:12 It may be that the LORD will look on the wrong done to me, and that the LORD will repay me with good for his cursing today."
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Do you see God in control of the events from Adam to Christ's return in 70AD? Maybe just some of the events?
Do you think man came up with a plan to not kill Jesus so God had to counter their plan with his plan "B"?

"A remnant was elected and the rest were hardened."
Hardened till the Gentiles received the HS, then they were made jealous, as a way to bring them in. It was their choice. Repent of their belief and accept Jesus as the Messiah, or remain friends with the old covenant Jew's to their demise .
 
Hardened till the Gentiles received the HS, then they were made jealous, as a way to bring them in. It was their choice. Repent of their belief and accept Jesus as the Messiah, or remain friends with the old covenant Jew's to their demise .
Could it be that God was in control of all of the events leading up to 70AD? Everything from Adam to 70AD except salvation? He did the blinding and the light to make his plan come about. He was in total control of all of the events except salvation?
Everything. Total control of all the events. Except salvation.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Could it be that God was in control of all of the events leading up to 70AD? Everything from Adam to 70AD except salvation? He did the blinding and the light to make his plan come about. He was in total control of all of the events except salvation?
Everything. Total control of all the events. Except salvation.
The events were small compared to every action of every man around the world at that time.
In your opinion, was God watching an Eskimo kill a seal for his family in which he had ordained to happen at the very moment He watched the Gentiles receive the HS as He had ordained to happen already?

Was He so concerned about a people that did not know Him, and would die without Him?
 
The events were small compared to every action of every man around the world at that time.
In your opinion, was God watching an Eskimo kill a seal for his family in which he had ordained to happen at the very moment He watched the Gentiles receive the HS as He had ordained to happen already?

Was He so concerned about a people that did not know Him, and would die without Him?
God needed to control the events of the Eskimo in order for him to survive in order to have the offspring of one of his elect.

If God knew that you were one of his children from the foundation of the earth, then he would have to make sure your parents and their parents survived long enough for you to be born.

Think about Abraham's lineage. Think about mother Mary's genealogy. It's not like she was chosen from the random stock of the Jewish towns people.
God had to ensure Mary would be born so that Jesus would be born.

I don't think any of the events in time were small. Saul had to become Paul.
 
Do you see God in control of the events from Adam to Christ's return in 70AD? Maybe just some of the events?
Do you think man came up with a plan to not kill Jesus so God had to counter their plan with his plan "B"?

"A remnant was elected and the rest were hardened."

You had to o do it didn't you? The 70ad death nail. Just when it was getting fiesty too.

Ok. Someone call 911! Against my better judgement I'm starting CPR on this thread even though it went off the tracks some miles back.

Would someone please enlighten me as to how exactly if we do NOT have free will then how is God not a Sadist as the Athiest claim. And if it's not too much to ask start with Adam and Eve's CHOICE and maybe tie it in to the PURPOSE of the temptation of Christ in the wilderness and maybe cap it off with Satan wishing to sift Peter for biscuits and have the A/As downstairs for butter.
 

Israel

Senior Member
"As an online religious discussion grows longer, the probability of a 70AD will eventually appear."

We need a name for this law.
There already is a name for it.

The law of diminishing returns.

Swords do not choose to become plowshares, they are beaten into them. A hope is revealed but men are loathe to lay down their arms.

Being, and their "will to be" have become all amix and so it is by their own mind they carry this seeming hybrid thing, or at least try to, into a place that has no room for it. We dress ourselves poorly for heaven in thinking we shall make it our own.

‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ But the man was speechless.

The tried stone is not afraid. Not afraid of being offense. Not afraid of losing disciples..."will you leave also"?
Not afraid of being misunderstood. As much as being sought is precious to Him, being listened to...heard..."Mary has chosen that good part..." He remains...relentless.

When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they asked Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?” Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, it is not because you saw these signs that you are looking for Me, but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.

Jesus knows for "what advantage" we take him.

Do we think anything is hidden from the sight of Him with whom we have to do?

"To the Jews who had believed Him..."

"To the Jews who had believed Him..."

Something was said that so riled them...about "their" freedom.

While showing His...






To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

“Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
 
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