All condemned, but all justified

Thread starter #1

welderguy

Senior Member
Rom.5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Someone explain to me how this text is not saying every single individual is justified by Christ.
 
In Romans 11, God elects a Remnant by grace and not works and hardens the rest. Then the Deliverer will come and "all" Israel will be saved. He will take away their sins.

I'm wondering that if God hardens someone, does he then justify it by granting them salvation? If it is a temporary hardening?

Maybe related to "all" as all men as compared to Israel as well.
 

280 Man

Senior Member
I've looked the "all" thing before. I have no answer.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Yet the next verse says;

23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

First thing that I notice is "then at His coming." Like we must wait.
Nest thing, "those that belong to him." Is that everyone?

Sure "we" all belong to God because of being a part of creation but those that belong to him, refer to those that been redeemed through salvation
 

280 Man

Senior Member
Rom.5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Someone explain to me how this text is not saying every single individual is justified by Christ.
The "offence of one". is referencing Adams sin. When he sinned the sin "curse" befell ALL of mankind. There had to be a propitiation for that sin. That was Jesus Christ. Through Jesus' death and subsequent resurrection he was that propitiation so that any person that called on the name of the Lord for salvation could be justified unto life through the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Thread starter #6

welderguy

Senior Member
The "offence of one". is referencing Adams sin. When he sinned the sin "curse" befell ALL of mankind. There had to be a propitiation for that sin. That was Jesus Christ. Through Jesus' death and subsequent resurrection he was that propitiation so that any person that called on the name of the Lord for salvation could be justified unto life through the Lord Jesus Christ.
I don't believe you can call it a free gift if it is contingent upon man doing something to get it.
I would have never called on Him, if He hadn't done the work on my dead heart first. This I know.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
Rom.5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Someone explain to me how this text is not saying every single individual is justified by Christ.
1. It says "the free gift came". I suppose a gift does not have to be accepted or even considered, or is simply ignored and not picked up.

2. It will not be considered by people who have no faith in God, because a gift by someone who does not exist does not exist as a gift.

3.Therefore: Although all are conditioned by a judgement of condemnation, the offer of a gift is conditional on having faith, and the statement concerns people of faith only and excludes those who being so severely conditioned by the fall cannot be included in the prize of being justified by Christ. It was a condition that the Father gave his disciples to Jesus, that is to say those who had faith in God. Those who do not have faith in God, not even the faith as the ancients who tarried in hope before the Messiah, or as the gentiles who's intuitions cleave them to God, cannot be included in the justification...
 

280 Man

Senior Member
I don't believe you can call it a free gift if it is contingent upon man doing something to get it.
I would have never called on Him, if He hadn't done the work on my dead heart first. This I know.
No one that is saved would have accepted Jesus without the Holy Ghost "drawing" that dead heart.

Mankind has no part in salvation.. Salvation is not contingent on "you" doing anything for it.. Other than believing in your heart that you are a sinner and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he died and that God raised him from the grave, salvation is free..

Roman's 10:9-13 "
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
Thread starter #9

welderguy

Senior Member
No one that is saved would have accepted Jesus without the Holy Ghost "drawing" that dead heart.

Mankind has no part in salvation.. Salvation is not contingent on "you" doing anything for it.. Other than believing in your heart that you are a sinner and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he died and that God raised him from the grave, salvation is free..

Roman's 10:9-13 "
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
If the Holy Ghost draws the dead heart(makes it alive), then how could it be possible to reject it. Is the Holy Ghost sometimes a failure in His work? Is this call not effectual?
After this so called rejection, does the heart go back to being dead again?
 

280 Man

Senior Member
If the Holy Ghost draws the dead heart(makes it alive), then how could it be possible to reject it. Is the Holy Ghost sometimes a failure in His work? Is this call not effectual?
After this so called rejection, does the heart go back to being dead again?
It's called free will. You have a choice to accept or reject.. Even tho the heart is drawn, by God unto salvation, until that regeneration, salvation, that heart remains "dead".

You can call it Holy Ghost failure all you want. It's your failure when you reject the Holy Ghost drawing to God. God will not force himself on you or anyone for that matter.
 

gordon 2

Senior Member
If the Holy Ghost draws the dead heart(makes it alive), then how could it be possible to reject it. Is the Holy Ghost sometimes a failure in His work? Is this call not effectual?
After this so called rejection, does the heart go back to being dead again?

A horse drawn to water, does not make the horse to drink. It is not the failure of the walker that the horse would refuse his necessary drink. Old dogs can be stubburn, I suspect so can old horses. And so it goes with old man...
 
Let's compare the gift to the trespass.

But the gift is not like the trespass.
But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift.

Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

This sounds like many died from the trespasses of one but many more than that will receive the gift of grace.

I guess what I'm asking is, what is Paul trying to show? What difference between Adam and Jesus is Paul trying to show by the many vs the many more?

What did sin do away with to make it many compared to the death of Jesus that was many more?
 
Thread starter #13
It's called free will. You have a choice to accept or reject.. Even tho the heart is drawn, by God unto salvation, until that regeneration, salvation, that heart remains "dead".

You can call it Holy Ghost failure all you want. It's your failure when you reject the Holy Ghost drawing to God. God will not force himself on you or anyone for that matter.
Read this text and tell me if you still think there's any way for a person to reject this call? It declares that they "SHALL" live.

John 5
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
Let's compare the gift to the trespass.

But the gift is not like the trespass.
But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift.

Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

This sounds like many died from the trespasses of one but many more than that will receive the gift of grace.

I guess what I'm asking is, what is Paul trying to show? What difference between Adam and Jesus is Paul trying to show by the many vs the many more?

What did sin do away with to make it many compared to the death of Jesus that was many more?
What that is saying is because Adam ( one man ) sinned all of humanity was subjected to sin. But in Jesus ( one new man ) all that He has called are made new in Him. It is a spiritual death first , then physical death. In Christ it is a spiritual rebirth and then we who are raised with Christ will one day walk in eternal life!

Man's what he thinks is free will is actually self will and needs to be slayed in the spirit. It needs to be killed every day. Man can not refuse the calling of the Holy Spirit. We do not have free will.
 
Thread starter #16
It's called free will. You have a choice to accept or reject.. Even tho the heart is drawn, by God unto salvation, until that regeneration, salvation, that heart remains "dead".

You can call it Holy Ghost failure all you want. It's your failure when you reject the Holy Ghost drawing to God. God will not force himself on you or anyone for that matter.
There is no free will regarding eternal redemption. None. Jesus did that work all by Himself. There's nothing we can add or take away.
The part that we, as redeemed individuals have freedom to do, is press into the kingdom ,but only after WE HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN. Then and only then do we have this liberty. We can't save ourselves. Jesus did that. Remember when John turned away the Pharisees at the river saying "who told you to flee the wrath to come?" They were attempting to save themselves. Man cannot save himself by any means. That part has been accomplished for us by Christ.
 

280 Man

Senior Member
There is no free will regarding eternal redemption. None. Jesus did that work all by Himself. There's nothing we can add or take away.
The part that we, as redeemed individuals have freedom to do, is press into the kingdom ,but only after WE HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN. Then and only then do we have this liberty. We can't save ourselves. Jesus did that. Remember when John turned away the Pharisees at the river saying "who told you to flee the wrath to come?" They were attempting to save themselves. Man cannot save himself by any means. That part has been accomplished for us by Christ.
"no free will regarding eternal redemption" "press into the kingdom".. you must be Calvinist....Press on if you wish....
 
Thread starter #18
The natural(unregenerate) man can't see the kingdom, nor can he enter it.
Doesn't mean he hasn't been redeemed by Christ. Just that he hasn't been born again.

1 Corinthians 2:14-15
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
 

Madman

Senior Member
I don't believe you can call it a free gift if it is contingent upon man doing something to get it.
I would have never called on Him, if He hadn't done the work on my dead heart first. This I know.
Welderguy;
If I offer you a new truck, for free, as a free gift, all you have to do is believe that it is a free gift and come get it.

Acts 2:
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

If you don't believe what I have told you, then you will not come, the only way to believe is to believe me. The Holy Spirit convinced many that day and they were baptized for the remission of their sins.

Salvation belongs to the Lord, who does he call? He calls everyone. (2 Peter 3:9)
But we have to respond. No where in Scripture are we called to believe and then do nothing.

And to your opening, yes salvation is available to everyone, "You, your children, and all who are far off". We were dead in our trespasses, but he "quickened" us, he made us alive just as the Holy Spirit made those on Pentecost "Alive". Once quickened you have some choices, (1) say "no thank you" and go back to sleep, (2) say "thank you but i am not going to do anything so you bring it to me, (3) say thank you "what shall I DO".
 
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