All condemned, but all justified

Thread starter #21
Welderguy;
If I offer you a new truck, for free, as a free gift, all you have to do is believe that it is a free gift and come get it.

Acts 2:
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

If you don't believe what I have told you, then you will not come, the only way to believe is to believe me. The Holy Spirit convinced many that day and they were baptized for the remission of their sins.

Salvation belongs to the Lord, who does he call? He calls everyone. (2 Peter 3:9)
But we have to respond. No where in Scripture are we called to believe and then do nothing.

And to your opening, yes salvation is available to everyone, "You, your children, and all who are far off". We were dead in our trespasses, but he "quickened" us, he made us alive just as the Holy Spirit made those on Pentecost "Alive". Once quickened you have some choices, (1) say "no thank you" and go back to sleep, (2) say "thank you but i am not going to do anything so you bring it to me, (3) say thank you "what shall I DO".
You're missing the kingdom in all of this. Remember the kingdom parable of the sower. ...."some fell by the wayside....some among thorns...some on the stony ground....and some fell on good ground"?
These men in Acts 2 are displaying this very parable. Do you see that?
It's not even about their eternal salvation here. I know this because Jesus, while on the cross, cried out "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". He was dying for these exact same people. They were forgiven and redeemed forever.
On Pentecost, some had been regenerated, thus they had "good ground" for the words of the kingdom (seeds)
Others did not have good ground, for whatever reason.
Do you see why I keep saying most of the New Testament is speaking of the kingdom here and now? Most people think it's speaking of obtaining eternal life. That part is finished. Jesus said so.
 

Madman

Senior Member
You're missing the kingdom in all of this. Remember the kingdom parable of the sower. ...."some fell by the wayside....some among thorns...some on the stony ground....and some fell on good ground"?
These men in Acts 2 are displaying this very parable. Do you see that?
It's not even about their eternal salvation here. I know this because Jesus, while on the cross, cried out "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". He was dying for these exact same people. They were forgiven and redeemed forever.
On Pentecost, some had been regenerated, thus they had "good ground" for the words of the kingdom (seeds)
Others did not have good ground, for whatever reason.
Do you see why I keep saying most of the New Testament is speaking of the kingdom here and now? Most people think it's speaking of obtaining eternal life. That part is finished. Jesus said so.
I haven't missed anything. "The Kingdom is at hand." Eternal life is NOW. I must be stupid, cause I don't see this point you are trying to make, over and over and over again.

Christ died for everyone, but it must be accepted, and then we have to "work".

Please draw me a picture of what you are saying.
 
Thread starter #23
I haven't missed anything. "The Kingdom is at hand." Eternal life is NOW. I must be stupid, cause I don't see this point you are trying to make, over and over and over again.

Christ died for everyone, but it must be accepted, and then we have to "work".

Please draw me a picture of what you are saying.
What I'm trying to show is that what Jesus accomplished on the cross is a finished work. But you keep saying it depends on man's acceptance. That is not right.
The reason you are confusing man's role in the whole thing is because the texts which describe man's role are about the kingdom. Not obtaining a spot in heaven.

Am I helping or making it worse?
 
Trying to follow along as well. So when Jesus said "it is finished" that was him saying all of creation had been granted eternal life?

If so then the rest of scripture, from that point forward should be about the Kingdom and not things about Heaven or how to get there.

If not then how does one distinguish between whether scripture is talking about the Kingdom or Heaven/Eternal life vs everlasting death?
 
Please explain this Kingdom? Is it the earthy restoration? The New Jerusalem? If one has eternal life but isn't in the Kingdom, where does he wait until the kingdom has ended?
 
Please explain your questions.
Is the New Testament about the Kingdom, eternal life, or both? If Jesus died for all and "it is finished", where do the individuals go that have eternal live but aren't living in the Kingdom?

We know that Paul said not everyone will enter the Kingdom; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. So where do they wait before entering Heaven?
 
Please explain your questions.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus died for their salvation from everlasting death. That they may have eternal life. Yet they can't enter the Kingdom. Where to they wait until their resurrection to eternal life?
 
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Thread starter #29
Is the New Testament about the Kingdom, eternal life, or both? If Jesus died for all and "it is finished", where do the individuals go that have eternal live but aren't living in the Kingdom?

We know that Paul said not everyone will enter the Kingdom; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. So where do they wait before entering Heaven?
You speak as if you believe the kingdom is only in the future.
 
You speak as if you believe the kingdom is only in the future.
Not really, it may have already come. But still, if we all have gained eternal live from the cross (it is finished), where do the others wait?

They aren't in the Kingdom that has come. Ate they now, today, outside the gates of God's Kingdom that has come? Maybe the fornicators or drunkards?
Just not quite good enough to enter the kingdom, but still they have gained eternal life.

Or they haven't been elected into the Kingdom, that is here, but they have gained eternal life.

I'm going to have to agree with Madman, if you aren't going to tell us then we'll just have to pull teeth.

If you haven't figured that part of it out yet then so be it. That's understandable. If election is for the Kingdom as all recieve salvation from everlasting death.
 
I'm trying to picture God's Kingdom come on earth. Some humans have been elected into this kingdom, all have received salvation from eternal death.
Some are fornicators or drunkards that may keep them from the kingdom but still have gained eternal life from the cross.

If all receive salvation from death, then perhaps the Elect receive something special while on earth. Maybe it keeps them away from He11 on earth.

Just seems to be a few pieces of the puzzle missing is all I'm saying.
 
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There is no free will regarding eternal redemption. None. Jesus did that work all by Himself. There's nothing we can add or take away.
The part that we, as redeemed individuals have freedom to do, is press into the kingdom ,but only after WE HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN. Then and only then do we have this liberty. We can't save ourselves. Jesus did that. Remember when John turned away the Pharisees at the river saying "who told you to flee the wrath to come?" They were attempting to save themselves. Man cannot save himself by any means. That part has been accomplished for us by Christ.
What purpose is the Kingdom? Is it the same as the Church? Is this what certain individuals are elected into?

If salvation is a free gift and not of ourselves, is works required to enter the Kingdom?
Again, a fornicator or drunkard may have eternal life from the free gift but may have to perform some repentant works to enter the Kingdom?

So not everyone is elected for salvation as Christ paid the price for all. It is finished, but only certain individuals are elected into the Kingdom or Church. Maybe?
 
You speak as if you believe the kingdom is only in the future.
Only as it pertains to the end of this temporal existence. When Christ returns all sin and death will eventually end. Death will be done away with as well as sin.
The price of sin has already been paid but man still sins. Eventually in the future man will stop sinning and there will be no more temporary existence.

This is more in line with God becoming Happy.

Psalms 145:9-10 --- The Lord has compassion on all His creation and all He has made will praise Him.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

When that time comes, it will be some type of a different Kingdom. Maybe!
 
Thread starter #34
Only as it pertains to the end of this temporal existence. When Christ returns all sin and death will eventually end. Death will be done away with as well as sin.
The price of sin has already been paid but man still sins. Eventually in the future man will stop sinning and there will be no more temporary existence.

This is more in line with God becoming Happy.

Psalms 145:9-10 --- The Lord has compassion on all His creation and all He has made will praise Him.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

When that time comes, it will be some type of a different Kingdom. Maybe!
Art, did you read post 18?
I cannot make you see this kingdom. The Spirit must reveal it to you. I urge you to seek Him with your whole heart diligently in total submission to Him. He can give you all these answers. I doubt you'll find them on a forum. It comes not by the hearing of the ears, but by revelation of the Spirit.

That was not my purpose in starting this thread.
 
Art, did you read post 18?
I cannot make you see this kingdom. The Spirit must reveal it to you. I urge you to seek Him with your whole heart diligently in total submission to Him. He can give you all these answers. I doubt you'll find them on a forum. It comes not by the hearing of the ears, but by revelation of the Spirit.

That was not my purpose in starting this thread.
I understand the concept of Total Depravity and Unconditional Election. I wasn't asking you to explain the Holy Spirit calling me to see this Kingdom.

You should be able to explain to me the difference from this Kingdom from Heaven. If "all" will receive salvation then of course the revelation from the Holy Spirit has to be for the Kingdom instead. I do understand that one has to be called and/or elected into "that" Kingdom.

I was just looking for a simple explanation of how the rest of those, the non-elected, exist parallel with those elected into the Kingdom?

You seem to be using election into the Kingdom as a justification of not explaining yourself or you beliefs concerning the Kingdom. If it has been revealed to you by election, you should be able to explain it's existence and it's purpose within the world. Especially since there are many that are saved from eternal death that aren't a part of this kingdom.
 
Art, did you read post 18?
I cannot make you see this kingdom. The Spirit must reveal it to you. I urge you to seek Him with your whole heart diligently in total submission to Him. He can give you all these answers. I doubt you'll find them on a forum. It comes not by the hearing of the ears, but by revelation of the Spirit.

That was not my purpose in starting this thread.
Let's look at it this way. To those who aren't elected into the kingdom, the explanation will be foolish. We won't be able to see it. We are dead.

Le't suppose the Holy Spirit awakens us and we can see. We are no longer blind.

Can't I then share what the Holy Spirit has revealed? True those that are still dead won't see it or understand it? Yet can't I share my revelation?
I don't think it would be fair for me to say something like; "I can't share you my revelation as it will take the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you."

I mean that's not what Paul did. Even though it does take a calling from the Holy Spirit for individuals to see, Paul still shared his revelation from God.

All I'm asking is for you to do as Paul. Even though it's still a partial mystery, just share me your revelation.
 
Thread starter #37
I understand the concept of Total Depravity and Unconditional Election. I wasn't asking you to explain the Holy Spirit calling me to see this Kingdom.

You should be able to explain to me the difference from this Kingdom from Heaven. If "all" will receive salvation then of course the revelation from the Holy Spirit has to be for the Kingdom instead. I do understand that one has to be called and/or elected into "that" Kingdom.

I was just looking for a simple explanation of how the rest of those, the non-elected, exist parallel with those elected into the Kingdom?

You seem to be using election into the Kingdom as a justification of not explaining yourself or you beliefs concerning the Kingdom. If it has been revealed to you by election, you should be able to explain it's existence and it's purpose within the world. Especially since there are many that are saved from eternal death that aren't a part of this kingdom.
1 Pet. 1 answers all this.
Something that really sticks out at me about it all is the fact that the angels desire to learn about it. Even the prophets didn't totally understand it all. They spoke of the kingdom many times, but it was not revealed to them in the way it is now in these last times.
 
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Thread starter #38
Let's look at it this way. To those who aren't elected into the kingdom, the explanation will be foolish. We won't be able to see it. We are dead.

Le't suppose the Holy Spirit awakens us and we can see. We are no longer blind.

Can't I then share what the Holy Spirit has revealed? True those that are still dead won't see it or understand it? Yet can't I share my revelation?
I don't think it would be fair for me to say something like; "I can't share you my revelation as it will take the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you."

I mean that's not what Paul did. Even though it does take a calling from the Holy Spirit for individuals to see, Paul still shared his revelation from God.

All I'm asking is for you to do as Paul. Even though it's still a partial mystery, just share me your revelation.
Three words describe it best, I think.
Christ in you.
 
1 Pet. 1 answers all this.
Something that really sticks out at me about it all is the fact that the angels desire to learn about it. Even the prophets didn't totally understand it all. They spoke of the kingdom many times, but it was not revealed to them in the way it is now in these last times.
OK, thank! Reading 1 Peter 1, I guess the Elect to the kingdom are the exiles living as foreigners in the non-Kingdom world. Like the whole world is full of the non-elect but the elect are in the spiritual kingdom living among those non-elect.

Yet this kingdom is different from salvation from eternal death which even the non-elect to the kingdom have.
 

Madman

Senior Member
What I'm trying to show is that what Jesus accomplished on the cross is a finished work. But you keep saying it depends on man's acceptance. That is not right.
The reason you are confusing man's role in the whole thing is because the texts which describe man's role are about the kingdom. Not obtaining a spot in heaven.

Am I helping or making it worse?
Then you are in conflict with 2100 years of Church History and teaching.

God Calls, man accepts, and we must "run the race" to the end. Saved, sanctified, and on the way to heaven, once saved always saved, faith alone, etc., etc, etc., is not Biblical nor has it ever been taught by the church.
 
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