All condemned, but all justified

Madman

Senior Member
He works in us so that we can work it out. In that order. That's all I've ever been saying. If you heard something else, then you've misunderstood me apparently.
and my point is he saved us and placed us in the church to help us work it out.
 

j_seph

Senior Member
why did they leave the church?
the one's I know that have got mad at God or they got mad at someone in the church or they just started putting the world ahead of God and quit coming.
 

Madman

Senior Member
the one's I know that have got mad at God or they got mad at someone in the church or they just started putting the world ahead of God and quit coming.
We need the church God dosen't. They need to come home to the Grace's he offers for our edification.

To the ones who got mad at God: Job 38:4

To the ones who got mad at others: you don't abandon Peter because of Judas.

To those who put the world ahead of God: Come home to the body of Christ.
 
The greatest love gift beckons non-robotic response. Otherwise it is not a real love.
The love of Christ is gutsy, earthy and it gets into the very core of our life should we open the door to it. It is a choice to believe, and be crucified and raised with Jesus is the incredible outcome of our faith.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
The greatest love gift beckons non-robotic response. Otherwise it is not a real love.
Real love acquires, it does not beckon. A love that beckons and does not acquire is a worthless love.
The love of Christ is gutsy, earthy and it gets into the very core of our life should we open the door to it.
You say that a door separates us from the love of God. Scripture says that no thing can separate us from the love of God. Who shall we believe?
It is a choice to believe, and be crucified and raised with Jesus is the incredible outcome of our faith.
How does one choose to believe in something that one does not believe in? Conversion is required. Conversion and faith are gifts of God.
 
"Behold, l stand at the door and knock." comes to mind. Note the response, "if anyone opens the door I (Jesus) will come in ..."
There's many more passages I could share, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved". Etc. By grace thru faith still makes the One time sacrifice a free gift, but as in all gifts, reception (believe) is a link to the gift.

Sorry, but we've been down the god-robotic doctrine rabbit hole so I'll leave it there what said. Peace
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
"Behold, l stand at the door and knock." comes to mind. Note the response, "if anyone opens the door I (Jesus) will come in ..."
There's many more passages I could share, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved". Etc. By grace thru faith still makes the One time sacrifice a free gift, but as in all gifts, reception (believe) is a link to the gift.

Sorry, but we've been down the god-robotic doctrine rabbit hole so I'll leave it there what said. Peace
Revelation 3:20 is one of the "go to" verses of will worshipping religion. This verse does not tell us who will hear and by what power do they hear. It does not tell us who will respond and by what power do they respond. We find that elsewhere in Scripture.

Life precedes action!

I will not leave you in your will worship. There is no peace there.
 

Israel

Senior Member
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Yet not I.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Is this not source of much conflict, question, (right?) investigations and appeal for light?

What relationship can endure if it is not established in clear distinction of any? How can any have a relationship if there be not "one" and another? Mustn't (if there be a both) both have some sort of understanding? (even if only one have the greater, or all of the understanding...to give to the "other"?)

Do we not agree as believers that man is the one needing light...even all light...in this?
Dare we think our God does not know all of Himself, of precisely...who He is?
Can we admit...man does not? Dare we not admit, this is that which is to which we are called...to know God in fullness through Jesus Christ?

I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

I and the Father are One.

If you have seen me you have seen the Father.

I don't speak as one who has investigated this to any full and conclusive end to enlighten any other, no, I speak rather as one who is provoked to consider it...and even now, this very morning in gratitude, provoked in the Lord's body to consider first my relationship, and in that no less my relationship in and to the body. No, I desire to make it clear...this grows, not from any sufficiency of myself, but rather all of my weakness. In ways only God knows this morning, I am most in dire need of knowing "what is my relationship to Him, and in Him". I tremble...without denying.

How much uselessness to himself in all, can any man bear in himself to his knowing?

As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.

Do we deny ourselves singing if we do not see?

In whom is all joy? In what...is none?

What do any have that is not given?

For any that might have any care for my soul, I offer this...for rebuke, rebuttal, addition to, or the complete tearing down and burning.

https://wordpress.com/post/israelx7wordpresscom.wordpress.com/19
 
Last edited:

gemcgrew

Senior Member
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Yet not I.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Is this not source of much conflict, question, (right?) investigations and appeal for light?

What relationship can endure if it is not established in clear distinction of any? How can any have a relationship if there be not "one" and another? Mustn't (if there be a both) both have some sort of understanding? (even if only one have the greater, or all of the understanding...to give to the "other"?)

Do we not agree as believers that man is the one needing light...even all light...in this?
Dare we think our God does not know all of Himself, of precisely...who He is?
Can we admit...man does not? Dare we not admit, this is that which is to which we are called...to know God in fullness through Jesus Christ?

I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

I and the Father are One.

If you have seen me you have seen the Father.

I don't speak as one who has investigated this to any full and conclusive end to enlighten any other, no, I speak rather as one who is provoked to consider it...and even now, this very morning in gratitude, provoked in the Lord's body to consider first my relationship, and in that no less my relationship in and to the body. No, I desire to make it clear...this grows, not from any sufficiency of myself, but rather all of my weakness. In ways only God knows this morning, I am most in dire need of knowing "what is my relationship to Him, and in Him". I tremble...without denying.

How much uselessness to himself in all, can any man bear in himself to his knowing?

As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.

Do we deny ourselves singing if we do not see?

In whom is all joy? In what...is none?

What do any have that is not given?

For any that might have any care for my soul, I offer this...for rebuke, rebuttal, addition to, or the complete tearing down and burning.

https://wordpress.com/post/israelx7wordpresscom.wordpress.com/19
Paul knew a thing or two about this "god-robotic doctrine"(whatever that means). Paul knew and stated without hesitation that it is not of him that willeth, but of God.

Israel, I can't get your link to work.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
Rom.5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Someone explain to me how this text is not saying every single individual is justified by Christ.
That is what it is saying. The "every single individual" that belong to Christ(2nd Adam).

Welder, when you have the time, read Book 5 Chapter 2 in this work by John Brown.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/haddington/Systematic_p.pdf

Also, here is an easier read(not that you require such) by Bill McDaniel.

https://playpdf.sermonaudio.com/media/66102226546/66102226546.pdf

Side note: My brother called me today to inform me that Bill McDaniel suffered cardiac arrest this week and was placed in induced coma. They have attempted to wake him but it does not look as if he will recover.
 
Last edited:

Israel

Senior Member
Paul knew a thing or two about this "god-robotic doctrine"(whatever that means). Paul knew and stated without hesitation that it is not of him that willeth, but of God.

Israel, I can't get your link to work.
Thanks for letting me know that...I am seeking to understand why the link doesn't work.

I can only think that what may be described as "god-robotic doctrine" has something to do with either not seeing, resistance to seeing, or more particularly to dispel a seeing (by employing a sort of derisive description) of man as the NOT active agency.

Yes, Paul understood, even to a care of editing, "yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me".

Paul was not unaware "of labor", even that in which he had participated as personal witness. (Can there be any other sort...of witness?) Yet even in all he experienced of work either in, or through "the Paul" he knew as himself, he was diligent to ascribe the labor (of whatever sort) rightly. All, of God. If he believed...(or if one prefers, as he believed, not wanting to even remotely imply "if" as in any doubt of Paul) he knew this was all God's work. If (as!) what proceeded from that faith led him in experience of labor as though "through Paul" he also knew and was careful to note...it was nothing "of himself".

And I must be careful here to note, I tell you nothing of which I am not convinced you already know and state clearly, (and in such stating as I have benefited.)

"So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow..."

Yes, Paul relinquished much (dare we say "was pressed to?") in the wrong or previous view (if wrong seems a judgment of our brother) of himself as the active agent. When in ignorance he stumbled and kicked against the goads, he no less came to know it was only God's work that revealed his ignorance and there was absolutely nothing of himself to either reveal ignorance, nor dispel it.

"When it pleased God to reveal His son in me..."


I remember well much of our own conversations. It sticks with me (as well I believe it must, and should) when a few years ago you expressed (do you remember?) how that in the light given...you had come to appreciate how blind, ineffective in all, and of what complete inability you had had yourself...revealed to yourself?
I remember your laughter! You said something like "It's like being told to just turn on the light"...but you said (and laughed) "it's like a man without even arms or hands to reach or touch a light switch I was!" There was nothing there to do "anything"...even for itself.

Yes. (And again, I have benefited in your reminder when in all, as I seek, and am tempted with what to "present" of help for myself)

Something takes insult at the revelation of "all inability" as agency (which appears to itself as being the active agent)

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The very doing of which they believed were their doing to an end, even a sure end...of which they approved and desired (the end of Jesus the Christ)...was all, and in all, overwritten and predestined...to their end. Tools. (And I do not mean that derisively, at all) They thought they could "turn off the light". Surprise! In seeking to "turn it off" (the light)...such has been engaged to its total release! And this all perfectly according to plan.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

But this "over writing" is not to be mistaken as reaction to, but original "over writing" as in all has been well written over before the beginning (as man might know it)...the overarching intent and will of God, against which there is no will that prevails. But must only then be manifestly revealed, and displayed, as in utter defeat.

But, like I said, you know these things...and I am only called to a role as captain obvious...(lieutenant? buck private?...nothing at all...). Just obvious.

And the Lord is even (particularly) helping me with that.
 
Last edited:

gemcgrew

Senior Member
I can only think that what may be described as "god-robotic doctrine" has something to do with either not seeing, resistance to seeing, or more particularly to dispel a seeing (by employing a sort of derisive description) of man as the NOT active agency.
Paul rebuked this very objection, yet men still employ it, as if Paul never addressed it.
 
Thread starter #76
That is what it is saying. The "every single individual" that belong to Christ(2nd Adam).

Welder, when you have the time, read Book 5 Chapter 2 in this work by John Brown.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/haddington/Systematic_p.pdf

Also, here is an easier read(not that you require such) by Bill McDaniel.

https://playpdf.sermonaudio.com/media/66102226546/66102226546.pdf

Side note: My brother called me today to inform me that Bill McDaniel suffered cardiac arrest this week and was placed in induced coma. They have attempted to wake him but it does not look as if he will recover.
First, sorry to hear of Mr. McDaniel's affliction. I enjoyed reading his views on justification, as well as John Brown's. I wholeheartily agree with each's stand. They both make the correct point that the elect are justified. But, that still doesn't negate the declaration in Romans 5 that the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
First, sorry to hear of Mr. McDaniel's affliction.
He passed away yesterday.
I enjoyed reading his views on justification, as well as John Brown's. I wholeheartily agree with each's stand. They both make the correct point that the elect are justified. But, that still doesn't negate the declaration in Romans 5 that the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
All men in Adam and all men in Christ are not the same all men. Having said that, I admit that if I am limited to this one verse, I would have to agree with you.

But I am not limited to this one verse.
 
Thread starter #78
He passed away yesterday.

All men in Adam and all men in Christ are not the same all men. Having said that, I admit that if I am limited to this one verse, I would have to agree with you.

But I am not limited to this one verse.
Definitely not limited to that one verse.
Here's a few more for you to consider:


2 Cor.5:14-16 (note vs 15- a large group, then a smaller group out of that group)(both atoned for)

1 John 2:1-2(again, a distinction between two groups, but both atoned for)

John 12:31-32

John 12:47

John 3:17

2Cor. 5:18-19

And then, breaking into the context of 2 Pet.1, this one that is blinded and fruitless(lacks faith), still has had his old sins purged.(atoned for)

Two groups: vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour(both atoned for; both justified)

...But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

One more thought:

When Jesus said on the cross "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". Those that He was interceding for, were the same ones at Pentecost. There were two groups of people there. Those that were "pricked"in their heart, and those that were "cut" to the heart. But I say ALL were atoned for, based on Jesus' intercession.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
Definitely not limited to that one verse.
Here's a few more for you to consider:

2 Cor.5:14-16 (note vs 15- a large group, then a smaller group out of that group)(both atoned for)
I will address this one in hope that it will be of help. I see the fallacy of categorical error in your view. Sanctification is not justification.

Also, regarding the large group/smaller group, if you see sheep/goats instead of lost sheep/found sheep, it is a diversion.

Goats can never be sheep.
 
Thread starter #80
I will address this one in hope that it will be of help. I see the fallacy of categorical error in your view. Sanctification is not justification.

Also, regarding the large group/smaller group, if you see sheep/goats instead of lost sheep/found sheep, it is a diversion.

Goats can never be sheep.
When I read this verse...

2 Cor.5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

...I detect some("they which live") that have been regenerated (made alive spiritually).
These are being sanctified. These are they which are called out of the larger group(Rom.8:29-30).

It's true, a goat can never be a sheep.
Let me clarify this, lest you have forgotten. I believe that when a person is regenerated, his "goat nature" is sent away("depart from me for I never knew you").
So, I don't categorize individuals as sheep/goats. I see individuals as possessing a goat nature/sheep nature. Hense, He is not telling the individual to depart from Him. Rather, He is telling the goat within them to depart.
The "fit Man" sends the goat into an uninhabited land, never to be seen again.(Lev.16)
 
Last edited:
Top