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Another sad case
- Thread starter WaltL1
- Start date
ambush80
Senior Member
Please explain how this can be true:
And this can be true at the same time?
Does God know every detail? Does that include who will be saved and who won't? Or is He surprised when someone chooses to accept Him? Have you ever wondered about questions like this before?
And this can be true at the same time?
Does God know every detail? Does that include who will be saved and who won't? Or is He surprised when someone chooses to accept Him? Have you ever wondered about questions like this before?
Brother David
Senior Member
The Bible teaches us that God calls us to Him .Even though many believe in predestination , that goes completely against what Christ taught . That would leave one to believe that God knows all . The Bible also teaches us that God is omnipresent and omnipotent . As difficult as it is to believe , I once too doubted God's existence , but through the miracles that I have witnessed and experienced , I know believe . I also owe you gentlemen an apology for not being able to answer all your questions with facts . I can only believe !!!!!!!
WaltL1
Senior Member
We've had some good discussions on predestination here. We have Christians here that are for and against.
We understand that you cant answer our questions with facts. There aren't any facts to give that would prove God exists. Like you said, its based on faith/belief.
ambush80
Senior Member
God is also omniscient which means He knows ALL. Doesn't all include who is saved and who isn't, and wouldn't he know this before they were born?
I suppose I'm trying to change your mind about predestination. You might wonder why an unbeliever like me would want you to do that. First, if you insist on believing in the veracity of the Bible, you should do it as logically consistently as you can. Wouldn't God prefer you do that to the best of your abilities? Secondly, you should reason properly in everything else you do. It will make you a better person and a better citizen. If you can't solve this one, I can only imagine what else you are misthinking about.
WaltL1
Senior Member
Its kind of interesting, in all those years as a believer I just don't remember this as being much of a topic. Maybe I wasn't paying attention that day but I always had the "God wants you, you just have to go to him" understanding. Anybody, everybody, no special guest list.
In practice, that's pretty much the opposite of "God chose you but not him" definition of predestination.
But there's no arguing that if God is omni-everything and you don't believe, its because he didn't intend you to believe.
Contradiction # 1830625348026..
ambush80
Senior Member
It's a big one. It seems way more important to sort out than "sprinkle or dunk". I'm guessing there's a reason that it doesn't get much airplay on Sunday.
Brother David
Senior Member
If we are predestined to salvation , then where does Jesus fit in . For God so loved the world that he gave his only son for sacrifice so that those already guaranteed Heaven could __________ ? I not much into shoving Jesus on anyone , Jesus spoke the words if you love me ! I don't get into denominational arguments ! My life consist of loving the Lord thy God with all my heart, soul and mind and my neighbor as myself !
ambush80
Senior Member
This is an appeal for you to use your God given mind.
Well, Jesus is God in man form. I'm not sure how much "God power" he had. He seems to know the future. He says that one of the disciples would betray him. Would it not make sense that as he met people in the street that he would know which ones were going to He11 and which ones were going to heaven? Wouldn't he have known me all the way back then 2,000 years ago? Wouldn't he know where my soul was going?
It's quite simple, is he all knowing or not? If he is then you have to figure out a way to do some mental gymnastics to have freewill exist along side his omniscience. I'll help you a bit. Most Freewillers I've heard from will say something like "God can turn off His omniscience so that he doesn't know what you'll choose...But He's still omniscient". That's the "Limited Freewill" argument (I know, it doesn't make sense. None of these explanations will). The other explanation people give is "God doesn't exist in space and time like we do" so for some reason that allows him to know everyting but not everything at the same time, or something like that. The other way, which I anticipate that you'll adopt, is that "We don't know how there's freewill and God's omniscience and I don't care if it doesn't make sense. I'll leave it at the foot of the Cross".
The question of freewill existing at the same time with God's omniscience is a flaw in the doctrine itself. It's similar to the problem of God being all powerful. Can He make a burrito so hot that he can't eat it? Or can He make a rock so heavy that He can't lift it? Most Christians I've met will dismiss these questions. They'll say "They have no bearing on my salvation". But they should. If you're confused by these questions, or if they're confusing by nature, then there's some chicanery going on. As a guy pointed out in the other thread "God does not confuse". Maybe there's a less confusing way to think about your "eternal soul", should it exist. Maybe someone else did a better job incorporating mind and soul.
Brother David
Senior Member
Where most get confused is not going back far enough .
Eve then Adam went against God in the Garden , so with this rebellion Sin was brought into an otherwise stable situation . When Lucifer , Satan , ( which ever name you choose ) brought forth the rebellion it brought forth separation ! All have sinned and come short of the glory of God , thus been separated . Adam and Eve are the only two humans born of God , the rest of us are born of Men . Since Sin is the separating factor , our God allowed man to exist with the Knowledge of both choices . If God hadn't allowed this after the fall of man , He would have to have destory all and begin anew .
Instead of starting over , Yaweh has offered his creation the Offering of atonement through the sheeding of the blood of an umblemished lamb. Whether we choose this atonement is entirely up to us ,No one goes to the father except through / by me .
Becoming born again isn't a metaphor Jesus used , it is a true surrender to God's authority .
God does know heart , our thoughts and actions , that why God sent His Son , that's why we have the Counselor (The Holy Spirit) , so that we could re-enter that pure love relationship .
Remember God's not the Author of Confusion . Sinned confused everything we are trying to get through life until we re-enter that unconfusing life with God !
Eve then Adam went against God in the Garden , so with this rebellion Sin was brought into an otherwise stable situation . When Lucifer , Satan , ( which ever name you choose ) brought forth the rebellion it brought forth separation ! All have sinned and come short of the glory of God , thus been separated . Adam and Eve are the only two humans born of God , the rest of us are born of Men . Since Sin is the separating factor , our God allowed man to exist with the Knowledge of both choices . If God hadn't allowed this after the fall of man , He would have to have destory all and begin anew .
Instead of starting over , Yaweh has offered his creation the Offering of atonement through the sheeding of the blood of an umblemished lamb. Whether we choose this atonement is entirely up to us ,No one goes to the father except through / by me .
Becoming born again isn't a metaphor Jesus used , it is a true surrender to God's authority .
God does know heart , our thoughts and actions , that why God sent His Son , that's why we have the Counselor (The Holy Spirit) , so that we could re-enter that pure love relationship .
Remember God's not the Author of Confusion . Sinned confused everything we are trying to get through life until we re-enter that unconfusing life with God !
ambush80
Senior Member
Did God know that Satan would tempt Adam and Eve? Did he know that Eve would succumb to Satan's temptation or was God like "Whoa!!! didn't see that one coming!"?
Didn't God kind of "start over" with The Flood?
ambush80
Senior Member
Can God stop Satan if he wanted to? If He can, Why doesn't He? If He doesn't stop Satan, does that mean he approves of what Satan does or at least doesn't mind?
Let's say I own a dog named Satan. Satan is completely under my control. One day my neighbor sees my dog Satan chewing off his daughter's face while I watch. He knows that I have complete control over Satan. What's he to think? I want Satan to chew his daughter's face off? I don't mind that Satan is chewing his daughter's face off? Or that I have some good reason for letting Satan chew his daughter's face off that I won't tell him?
Let's say I own a dog named Satan. Satan is completely under my control. One day my neighbor sees my dog Satan chewing off his daughter's face while I watch. He knows that I have complete control over Satan. What's he to think? I want Satan to chew his daughter's face off? I don't mind that Satan is chewing his daughter's face off? Or that I have some good reason for letting Satan chew his daughter's face off that I won't tell him?
Brother David
Senior Member
God can stop Satan at anytime and one day he will . Remember Lucifer means , of light. God's bright creation who instead of following the heavenily father chose to rebel.
God's not in the destroying business!!!
God's in the rebuilding business!!!
One day God will RESTORE order !!!
Why rush , that's a human response !!!
Be patient , trust in the Lord and one day all will be revealed !!!
Just as Earthly parents do , God doesn't explain all decision . We must simply trust in him and remain faithful !
Why rush , slow down , Hunt , Fish enjoy the day which the Lord has made and one day all things we be revealed.
God's not in the destroying business!!!
God's in the rebuilding business!!!
One day God will RESTORE order !!!
Why rush , that's a human response !!!
Be patient , trust in the Lord and one day all will be revealed !!!
Just as Earthly parents do , God doesn't explain all decision . We must simply trust in him and remain faithful !
Why rush , slow down , Hunt , Fish enjoy the day which the Lord has made and one day all things we be revealed.
ambush80
Senior Member
God can stop Satan at anytime and one day he will . Remember Lucifer means , of light. God's bright creation who instead of following the heavenily father chose to rebel.
God's not in the destroying business!!!
God's in the rebuilding business!!!
One day God will RESTORE order !!!
Why rush , that's a human response !!!
Be patient , trust in the Lord and one day all will be revealed !!!
Just as Earthly parents do , God doesn't explain all decision . We must simply trust in him and remain faithful !
Why rush , slow down , Hunt , Fish enjoy the day which the Lord has made and one day all things we be revealed.
Did God know that Satan would rebel? Was there a chance that Satan was not going to do what God knew he would? How about Eve? Did God know what she was gonna do?
You're really avoiding these kinds of questions. Why?
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bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Claim:
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Claim:
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Assertion:
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Claim:
Evidence:
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According to the story told by an ancient culture.
Except for all the people he purposely killed in the Bible, ESPECIALLY EVERYONE but 8. Lets call it 20 MILLION people destroyed.
Claim:
Evidence:
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Assertion:
When? In Bible time it's at least 6000 years. If you can say what god will and won't do, tell us when it will be done.
A human responce to human writings.
Claim:
Evidence:
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How do you know how god operates?
Claim:
How has the Lord made this day? When will all things be revealed?Why rush , slow down , Hunt , Fish enjoy the day which the Lord has made and one day all things we be revealed.
Brother David
Senior Member
Men , I must bow out your way smarter than I . I don't know all the answers of life , apparently many do . I have already apologized to my Lord for my shortcomings , now I ask you to forgive me for not being able to provide you with the answers you seek . Maybe one day .
bullethead
Of the hard cast variety
Please do not be insulted in any way. I ask you these things in the hopes that you were the man (possibly sent by the very god you worship) that could be the guy to answer what no one else so far can answer. I respect the time that you have taken to talk with us in here. I hope that you stick around. Possibly you have some answers we are seeking.
Two questions before you leave:
Does your congregation accept without question all of the assertions that you have made here?
If they don’t, how do you answer their questions any better than the questions you have been asked here?
*
ambush80
Senior Member
Thanks for your participation.
Brother David
Senior Member
My congregation isn't looking for an argument , we believe on the name the Jesus without unnecessary accusations of my inadequatcies as a man of God . I was almost sure that at some point the aggression of those who don't believe would come out. I respect all of us who were able to have an intelligent conversation without insult . It showed a very high level of respect for both sides . I completely disagree of course with no God , but I choose not to put out scripture , rather to pour out my heart and I believe my congregation would approve of me trying to bring God to those who seek .
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