Any Preterists in here?

Thread starter #61
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

I agree not America. The Kingdom in which they were brought into..the promised land to Abraham is spiritual.
another Preterist "invisible" or "spiritual" fulfillment? :) No offense....
 
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

I agree not America. The Kingdom in which they were brought into..the promised land to Abraham is spiritual.
Yet somehow there were promises made to just Israel;


Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Isaiah 14:1
For the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and choose Israel once again. He will settle them on their own land. The foreigner will join them and be united with the house of Jacob.

Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the Law, the temple worship, and the promises.

Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

Paul talks about national Israel quite a lot. Especially in Romans 9-11.
 
Romans 11:26-27
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

I guess it's possible this happened in 70ad. If so then Israel would have to be spiritual as godlessness still resides in Israel.

Still though there sure are a lot of verses that sound like it's physical. A physical restoration of a physical Israel.

I wonder if this physical restoration will last forever on the earth? If it is indeed physical and a future event?
 
Here is a good verse to think about;

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Ellicott's Commentary;
Life from the dead.--The reconversion of the Jews will be a signal to inaugurate that reign of eternal life which will be ushered in by the resurrection from the dead.

Romans 11 is like a prophesy of what must happen to Israel. There acceptance means life from the dead.
 
I'm pretty sure Paul makes a distinction between Israel and the Church. I can't see God changing his definition of Israel. Either it's always been the Church or spiritual Israel or it's always been physical Israel.

I can accept either of those as always being but not changing from one to the other.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Yet somehow there were promises made to just Israel;


Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Isaiah 14:1
For the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and choose Israel once again. He will settle them on their own land. The foreigner will join them and be united with the house of Jacob.

Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the Law, the temple worship, and the promises.

Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

Paul talks about national Israel quite a lot. Especially in Romans 9-11.

Isaiah 14:1 sounds troubling to a preterist...if it were speaking of AD 70. But its not, that's speaking of the return from the Babylonian captivity in 587 BC.

I see no problem for a preterist in the other verses you listed.
 
Thread starter #68
Isaiah 14:1 sounds troubling to a preterist...if it were speaking of AD 70. But its not, that's speaking of the return from the Babylonian captivity in 587 BC.

I see no problem for a preterist in the other verses you listed.
The Jews returned from Babylon in 587BC... Not the scattered Northern tribes. the scattered tribes that were taken to Assyria in 721BC never returned to God, and were scattered throughout the world. There are two houses. House of Judah. House of Israel.

Jer 31:31-33 mentions both houses in one verse, as do other verses. In verse 33, when the kingdoms are restored, (which has not happened yet) there will only be one house again....a united House of Israel, with David as king.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
The Jews returned from Babylon in 587BC... Not the scattered Northern tribes. the scattered tribes that were taken to Assyria in 721BC never returned to God, and were scattered throughout the world. There are two houses. House of Judah. House of Israel.

Jer 31:31-33 mentions both houses in one verse, as do other verses. In verse 33, when the kingdoms are restored, (which has not happened yet) there will only be one house again....a united House of Israel, with David as king.
They were gathered in the New covenant. The Jews often referred to the diaspora as gentiles, the northern tribes were scattered out around the Roman empire. They were coming together in the first churches. The church did not replace Israel, it's a continuation . The church is the kingdom promised to Abraham, Christ is the seed as the heir of the promise.

Galatians 4:21ff shows the two Jerusalem's. The physical land being part of the old covenant is referred to as Hagar. Her children were cast out. Sarah is referred to as the new covenant and the Jerusalem from above which is the mother of us all, ( us in Christ).

God is never taking man back into the bondage of the law or given us back to Hagar. The Christ believing Jews, along with the diaspora, the Gentiles, and the dead ones that heard His voice were all gathered together in the church which has no end . Ephesians 3:21
 
Thread starter #70
lol I can tell you one Jew that thought there was a difference between Gentiles and the Lost Sheep of the northern tribes; Jesus.

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Also, according to Stephen, the church was at the base of Sinai...long before the alleged "birth of the church", which is another made up modern term. Church existed long before, even in the wilderness.

Hagar was a symbol of trying to earn salvation through fleshly works (Abraham + Hagar) Sarah was a symbol of salvation through faith and promise (Abraham + Sarah) Abraham tried to bring about God's promise by doing things himself. God's best was to get His promise through faith, though.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
lol I can tell you one Jew that thought there was a difference between Gentiles and the Lost Sheep of the northern tribes; Jesus.

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Also, according to Stephen, the church was at the base of Sinai...long before the alleged "birth of the church", which is another made up modern term. Church existed long before, even in the wilderness.

Hagar was a symbol of trying to earn salvation through fleshly works (Abraham + Hagar) Sarah was a symbol of salvation through faith and promise (Abraham + Sarah) Abraham tried to bring about God's promise by doing things himself. God's best was to get His promise through faith, though.
Samaritans were of the northern tribe. It was Judah, Levi, and part of Benjamin that had not yet been divorced of the covenant. Jerusalem was the Bride of God. Jesus came to save those of Judah. He was sifting the wheat and tares, the harvest was ready and the winnowing fork was already in His hand...the axe had been laid to the root.

Paul going out to the Gentile nations was the bringing in of the ten northern tribes.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Also...The bible clearly identifies Hagar as the old covenant..not a symbol of trying to earn salvation.
 
Thread starter #73
Samaritans were of the northern tribe. It was Judah, Levi, and part of Benjamin that had not yet been divorced of the covenant. Jerusalem was the Bride of God. Jesus came to save those of Judah. He was sifting the wheat and tares, the harvest was ready and the winnowing fork was already in His hand...the axe had been laid to the root.

Paul going out to the Gentile nations was the bringing in of the ten northern tribes.
So Jesus was wrong? Jesus said "don't go to the Gentiles, but to the House of Israel" Clearly a difference in the two. The Bride of Christ is also clearly identified in Revelation and is, as you said, the New Jerusalem. This New Jerusalem can only be entered by those associated with the tribes....no Gentile gate.
 
Thread starter #74
Also...The bible clearly identifies Hagar as the old covenant..not a symbol of trying to earn salvation.
I agree that it says Hagar is the old covenant, but that covenant was where men were trying to earn God's favor by works....not faith. Symbol was probably not the best word. better word would have been that the old Hagar covenant TYPIFIED a covenant where men were working to please God.
 
They were gathered in the New covenant. The Jews often referred to the diaspora as gentiles, the northern tribes were scattered out around the Roman empire. They were coming together in the first churches. The church did not replace Israel, it's a continuation . The church is the kingdom promised to Abraham, Christ is the seed as the heir of the promise.

Galatians 4:21ff shows the two Jerusalem's. The physical land being part of the old covenant is referred to as Hagar. Her children were cast out. Sarah is referred to as the new covenant and the Jerusalem from above which is the mother of us all, ( us in Christ).

God is never taking man back into the bondage of the law or given us back to Hagar. The Christ believing Jews, along with the diaspora, the Gentiles, and the dead ones that heard His voice were all gathered together in the church which has no end . Ephesians 3:21
Then you see the "gathering" of the dispersed Jews as more of a spiritual gathering than an actual physical gathering?

What about Romans 11? Did their acceptance bring life to the dead?
 
Thread starter #76
BTW, when Judah was taken captive to Babylon, God told them how long it would be for. Daniel understood it from the writings of Jeremiah. 70 years. Judah returned after 70 years, with a repentant heart. The Northern Tribes were also taken captive, circa 721BC, and were taken into Assyria. Ezekiel 4 tells us how long the punishment was to be for....390 years. But the Northern Tribes did not repent after the 390 years, so they were scattered AND, as the bible says, their punishment for not returning was multiplied times 7! That puts the punishment of the Northern Kingdom ending around 2009AD. Around 2009 is about when the "Hebrew Roots" thing got started. Today, thousands and thousands of Christians are turning their hearts back to obedience....not to earn salvation, but because of salvation. Obedience, per John 5, is how we show God we love Him.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
So Jesus was wrong? Jesus said "don't go to the Gentiles, but to the House of Israel" Clearly a difference in the two. The Bride of Christ is also clearly identified in Revelation and is, as you said, the New Jerusalem. This New Jerusalem can only be entered by those associated with the tribes....no Gentile gate.
Jesus was clearly not wrong. He came only for the lost sheep of Israel. Yet, that was the laying down of the foundation. Jesus sent Paul on a mission to the gentiles after the cross. This was bringing the diaspora in and it also brought about a Godly jealousy over the Jews. He continued drawing them into the fold until the end. Remember not all in Israel were Israel. As for there not being a gentile gate, I say bologna...show me scripture that disproves Revelation 22 that the spirit and bride beckons to whosoever will.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Then you see the "gathering" of the dispersed Jews as more of a spiritual gathering than an actual physical gathering?

What about Romans 11? Did their acceptance bring life to the dead?
It was a real gathering into the spiritual kingdom.
 
Thread starter #79
Jesus was clearly not wrong. He came only for the lost sheep of Israel. Yet, that was the laying down of the foundation. Jesus sent Paul on a mission to the gentiles after the cross. This was bringing the diaspora in and it also brought about a Godly jealousy over the Jews. He continued drawing them into the fold until the end. Remember not all in Israel were Israel. As for there not being a gentile gate, I say bologna...show me scripture that disproves Revelation 22 that the spirit and bride beckons to whosoever will.
I just did. Rev 22 says that there are only 12 Gates.... are you disputing that?

Also, was Paul's evangelism only to last until 70AD?
 
Thread starter #80
sorry Rev 21 says only 12 Gates...

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Rev 22 says who can enter them

14 Blessed are they that DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
 
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