Any Preterists in here?

[Artfuldodger]

I think it all depends on where and what Jesus is now. The right hand of God, the allegories.

Is Jesus literally at the right hand of God as a resurrected human deity or did he return to the spirit that he was before he became a human?

However he is, we will become like him. When we finally see him as he is.

Weird to think Jesus is the only physical entity in Heaven right now and all of God's other human children are there as spirits.

That and the fact that God is a spirit as well. Will we see God and Jesus or just Jesus as God?

 

[Spineyman]

1 Corinthians 15:52-54

Where, O Death, is Your Victory?
…52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”…

We will not be like we are now. We will be raised to newness of life. We will throw this tent away and put on a heavenly body!

 

[Spineyman]

John 14:1-4

14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

 

[Artfuldodger]

1 Corinthians 15:52-54

Where, O Death, is Your Victory?
…52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”…

We will not be like we are now. We will be raised to newness of life. We will throw this tent away and put on a heavenly body!

Where do we wait for this heavenly body? The space between physical death and the resurrection?

 

[Artfuldodger]

John 14:1-4

14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Again, Jesus has gone to prepare a place in his Father's house for us. He will personally come again to so that we may go where he is at.

If John 14:1-4 is the one time event of a future resurrection, where do we wait for this event?

It does almost sound like one can't go to heaven in the "tent" we are in now. That we also must wait for Jesus to come and get us. Like that return is very important. We need that future resurrection. We yearn for Christ's return. We wait for Christ's return.
We wait for our new "tent."

 

[Artfuldodger]

1 Corinthians 15:23-25
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

1 Corinthians 15:23-25
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable.

In verse 24, there's another mistranslation of the Greek. Here, Paul is listing out the 3 resurrections; 1st - Jesus Himself as the fulfillment of the FirstFruits feast 2nd - We who belong to Him at His coming 3rd "Then the end,..." there's the resurrection of the rest of the dead at the end of the millennium. In verse 24, the comma should come after the word 'end', and the words "will come" are inserted by the translators. (Your KJV bible will show you that those words are in italics, meaning they were inserted) Verse 24 should read, "Then the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father....."

 

[Artfuldodger]

In verse 24, there's another mistranslation of the Greek. Here, Paul is listing out the 3 resurrections; 1st - Jesus Himself as the fulfillment of the FirstFruits feast 2nd - We who belong to Him at His coming 3rd "Then the end,..." there's the resurrection of the rest of the dead at the end of the millennium. In verse 24, the comma should come after the word 'end', and the words "will come" are inserted by the translators. (Your KJV bible will show you that those words are in italics, meaning they were inserted) Verse 24 should read, "Then the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father....."

I can see that, Jesus' resurrection is past tense and the other two are in the future.

Does scripture tells us where we wait for those final two? If we who belong to Him can't resurrect until He returns?

Even the rest of the dead who aren't his. All waiting somewhere for their final judgement.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

much debate about where we are when we die. some scripture indicate we will be "present with the Lord", others indicate we are sleeping in the grave. doubt you'll get a definitive answer to that one lol

 

[Spineyman]

I can see that, Jesus' resurrection is past tense and the other two are in the future.

Does scripture tells us where we wait for those final two? If we who belong to Him can't resurrect until He returns?

Even the rest of the dead who aren't his. All waiting somewhere for their final judgement.

It has not been given to us definitively . So anything would at best be speculation. But Paul says to be absent from the body I to be present with the Lord. We also know that we will no longer be controlled by time. So no matter where we wait. I am perfectly fine with it to just be in the presence of the Lord, until whenever. This I do know,
Deuteronomy 29:29

29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

 

[Artfuldodger]

It has not been given to us definitively . So anything would at best be speculation. But Paul says to be absent from the body I to be present with the Lord. We also know that we will no longer be controlled by time. So no matter where we wait. I am perfectly fine with it to just be in the presence of the Lord, until whenever. This I do know,
Deuteronomy 29:29

29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

I would agree. The confusing part that Full Preterist say takes care of that is a Spiritual resurrection at our physical death. I would agree, why come back for a body if we are already in Heaven as spirits?

 

[Spineyman]

I would agree. The confusing part that Full Preterist say takes care of that is a Spiritual resurrection at our physical death. I would agree, why come back for a body if we are already in Heaven as spirits?

Hey don't complain, you are getting a twofer!

 

[hobbs27]

A lot of the error in futurist belief begins with failing to consider audience relevance.

So many times people read scripture and say Jesus said to us...or the bible tells us..well most of the time it doesnt.

Also, futurist claim preterist spiritualize scripture or they make it all in metaphors , while they clearly spiritualize or completely ignore the very literal time statements that clearly place His return in the first century.

Finally...luke 21 clearly states that the destruction of the temple would be when all things written would be fulfilled.

 

[Artfuldodger]

A lot of the error in futurist belief begins with failing to consider audience relevance.

So many times people read scripture and say Jesus said to us...or the bible tells us..well most of the time it doesnt.

Also, futurist claim preterist spiritualize scripture or they make it all in metaphors , while they clearly spiritualize or completely ignore the very literal time statements that clearly place His return in the first century.

Finally...luke 21 clearly states that the destruction of the temple would be when all things written would be fulfilled.

Good point. It's spiritual when we want it to be and/or it's physical when we want it to be.

 

[hobbs27]

Good point. It's spiritual when we want it to be and/or it's physical when we want it to be.

That's not the way it should work either. We need to identify the language. It's impossible to keep a literal rigid interpretation of apocalyptic language and come out with the true meaning. We have several old testament examples to look at , and compare to. We certainly aren't going to find true meaning looking at scripture through our modern western eyes.

 

[hobbs27]

If you talk to a preterist, you'll soon find that they are the king (or queen) of making everything the prophets said, and Jesus said, "allegories". "not really meaning what He said" or that it "had some spiritual meaning". No doubt 70AD was a significant year, but to say that all prophecy was fulfilled then is, IMO, heretical, and something that wasn't taught at all until like the 18th century I believe. Preterists, at least full preterists, make even our long hoped for resurrection only a spiritual thing. They will also tell you that the long hoped for kingdom of Christ

No doubt 70AD was a significant year, but to say that all prophecy was fulfilled then is, IMO, heretical

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

That one sounds physical and literal. Like a warning to flee physical Israel and to hide in the mountains for a physical battle.

 

[hobbs27]

That one sounds physical and literal. Like a warning to flea physical Israel and to hide in the mountains for a physical battle.

It was

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

That one sounds physical and literal. Like a warning to flee physical Israel and to hide in the mountains for a physical battle.

What armies was Jerusalem surrounded by in 70AD? Also, Jesus here is alluding to a prophecy in Zech 14 where it also says that Jerusalem, after the "armies" are destroyed will dwell in peace and safety forever. Are the inhabitants of Jerusalem dwelling in safety?

For the full preterist: Do you still evangelize? Take communion?

 

[Artfuldodger]

What armies was Jerusalem surrounded by in 70AD? Also, Jesus here is alluding to a prophecy in Zech 14 where it also says that Jerusalem, after the "armies" are destroyed will dwell in peace and safety forever. Are the inhabitants of Jerusalem dwelling in safety?

For the full preterist: Do you still evangelize? Take communion?

I think the Romans. I'm not saying it was the end of "all things" but it was a description of a soon to be event. Maybe it describes both, with one a mirror of a future event.

Also , how or where will Israel dwell in peace and safety forever? Aren't there passages that after the restoration the pastures will be green and full of animals or something like that?

To me it sounds like there will be a future physical restoration. Everything will be green and great again. Physically.

Now the question is, how do we balance the physical salvation with the spiritual salvation verses? How do we balance the physical restoration with the spiritual verses?

Sometimes they read like they are a physical salvation, such as Israel, from a physical wrath that is coming, and then a physical restoration.

Other times it reads like everything is spiritual. Maybe one is a shadow of the other.