Anyone into the Hebrew roots of Christianity?

NE GA Pappy,

I, like Bandy, believe that Paul was encouraging us to not let anyone judge us FOR keeping the sabbath, feast days, etc. I really don't like the NIV translation which I believe you quoted from there. I believe there is a small mistranslation there in verse 17. Where it says, "a shadow of things that were to come," the greek would read "a shadow of things that are LINGERING." The NKJV version does a pretty good job IMO and reads "to come."

Keep in mind, that just a few verses prior, Paul warns us not to be "cheated" by the tradition of men rather than following Christ. Which we know, was the living Word. A perfect example of God's Word.
That would only make sense if it is referring to Christ's next coming. If these laws were still lingering. I can't find a greek definition other than "shadow" not "shadow of things lingering."
Again if the law is "lingering" until Christ's return, it puts the verse out of context to the previous verses. The previous verses are leading up to Christ on the cross, not a future coming.
 
Thread starter #62
IMO, it comes down to...."How do you define 'sin'"? You may have your own opinion, but sin is defined in the bible....specifically by our boy, John. I John 3:4 "sin is transgression of THE LAW". You can debate what you think "the Law" means, but 1st century believers knew what John meant. They also knew what John meant when he said that we show God love by keeping his commandments. (Sabbath is a great place to start with most Christians, since God said it would be forever, everyone we read about in the bible kept it all the way to the end of Acts - some 30 years after Jesus ascended - and Isaiah prophecies that all will keep Sabbath in the millennium)

How do you guys show God you love him? Your own way? By reading your bible or going to church for a few hours on Sunday? Not trying to be offensive, just making sure that you know how our Father has asked us to show Him love (from the front of the book to the back. He never changes)
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
IMO, it comes down to...."How do you define 'sin'"? You may have your own opinion, but sin is defined in the bible....specifically by our boy, John. I John 3:4 "sin is transgression of THE LAW". You can debate what you think "the Law" means, but 1st century believers knew what John meant. They also knew what John meant when he said that we show God love by keeping his commandments. (Sabbath is a great place to start with most Christians, since God said it would be forever, everyone we read about in the bible kept it all the way to the end of Acts - some 30 years after Jesus ascended - and Isaiah prophecies that all will keep Sabbath in the millennium)

How do you guys show God you love him? Your own way? By reading your bible or going to church for a few hours on Sunday? Not trying to be offensive, just making sure that you know how our Father has asked us to show Him love (from the front of the book to the back. He never changes)
You are trying to add the Law to Jesus. Jesus took our place because we are not able to keep the law perfectly.

Romans 8:1-9
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
 
Thread starter #64
You are trying to add the Law to Jesus. Jesus took our place because we are not able to keep the law perfectly.

Romans 8:1-9
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Nope....Salvation doesn't come from keeping Law. The Law could not save us, as is plainly stated. But, just as the "mixed multitude" was saved from Egypt first, THEN given instructions that would bring blessings and curses in their life, God has saved us first through faith, but blessings still come through obedience. Christ redeemed us from the curse, not the blessings.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
The first day of the week was the day on which our Lord rose from the dead (John 20:1; cf. Ps. 118:24). The first day of the week is called “the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10; 1 Cor. 16:2). The first day was the day on which the Holy Spirit was poured out on the church (Acts 2:1-36). Therefore we observe the Lords day as the day we meet to be with the Lord.



You are just plain wrong in his use of 1 John 3:4. If you were consistent, you would still need to be killing lambs and stoning homosexuals. Jesus died and in doing so, brought about a revolutionary change in the law because now, it wasn't settled on the kingdom of Israel, but the worldwide kingdom of God, where we are the temple where God dwells. This wasn't breaking the law so much as fulfilling its function. In the case of the Sabbath (and other holy days dictated in Leviticus and Deuteronomy) Jesus' death and resurrection and ascension fulfilled and summed up all those holy days and made them better--he didn't abolish them, he concentrated them. Like he concentrated the whole sacrificial system of the OT into bread and wine, he concentrated all the holy days and Jewish religious calendar into the Lord's Day. So I do keep the commandments of the OT in my union with Christ, who fulfilled or "concentrated" all those into the simple, powerful Lord's Day with word, bread and wine.
 
Thread starter #66
The first day of the week was the day on which our Lord rose from the dead (John 20:1; cf. Ps. 118:24). The first day of the week is called “the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10; 1 Cor. 16:2). The first day was the day on which the Holy Spirit was poured out on the church (Acts 2:1-36). Therefore we observe the Lords day as the day we meet to be with the Lord.



You are just plain wrong in his use of 1 John 3:4. If you were consistent, you would still need to be killing lambs and stoning homosexuals. Jesus died and in doing so, brought about a revolutionary change in the law because now, it wasn't settled on the kingdom of Israel, but the worldwide kingdom of God, where we are the temple where God dwells. This wasn't breaking the law so much as fulfilling its function. In the case of the Sabbath (and other holy days dictated in Leviticus and Deuteronomy) Jesus' death and resurrection and ascension fulfilled and summed up all those holy days and made them better--he didn't abolish them, he concentrated them. Like he concentrated the whole sacrificial system of the OT into bread and wine, he concentrated all the holy days and Jewish religious calendar into the Lord's Day. So I do keep the commandments of the OT in my union with Christ, who fulfilled or "concentrated" all those into the simple, powerful Lord's Day with word, bread and wine.
Wrong yet again. As you've admitted, MEN changed Sabbath, not God. God said that the seventh day - Saturday - would be Sabbath FOREVER. So many Christians ignore God's FOREVER statements. Plus, we see everyone honoring the Sabbath some 30 years after Jesus' ascension.

When it comes to sacrifices and stoning homosexuals, those are illegal here, just as they were for the Jews when they were in Babylon. They kept what they could, just as we can.
 
Thread starter #67
Plus, people who say they honor the Sabbath, no matter what day they say they are doing it, don't honor how GOD ASKED US TO HONOR IT... by not working or buying or selling. when the Jews came back from Babylon, they started buying and selling on the Sabbath. Ezra had the gates of the city locked and guarded to prevent them from buying/selling on the Sabbath. He warned them that God would be angry with them again if they continued.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
Plus, people who say they honor the Sabbath, no matter what day they say they are doing it, don't honor how GOD ASKED US TO HONOR IT... by not working or buying or selling. when the Jews came back from Babylon, they started buying and selling on the Sabbath. Ezra had the gates of the city locked and guarded to prevent them from buying/selling on the Sabbath. He warned them that God would be angry with them again if they continued.
In the first place you are not Old Testament Israel, you are New Testament Church!
 
Thread starter #71
In the first place you are not Old Testament Israel, you are New Testament Church!
If you are not part of Israel, you are not in covenant with God. God never made a covenant with Gentiles. You had to be grafted into Israel. "Once a Gentile" as Ephesians 2 says... Plus, the church existed before the NT.....Acts 7
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”


37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
 
Thread starter #73
Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”


37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
and neither were part of the 10 :)
 
If you are not part of Israel, you are not in covenant with God. God never made a covenant with Gentiles. You had to be grafted into Israel. "Once a Gentile" as Ephesians 2 says... Plus, the church existed before the NT.....Acts 7
Would that not show a "change?" That there once was a time the Gentile was without Christ, excluded from the citizenship of Israel, and foreigners to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God?

The grafting in came later right? That part of God's plan entered time later. The Covenants of promise were made to Israel. Gentiles had to be spiritually or physically grafted in to receive these promises.

I can see Romans 11 explaining this. I'm not sure it means we have to be circumcised. Explain how a Remnant of Jews was chosen by grace and not works. Did their election by grace give them the power to be obedient?
 
Why did Jesus have to come in order for me to be grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel? Exactly how did his Death tear down the wall of hostility that kept me out?

Then explain why in Romans 11 Paul says it was Israel's hardening that allowed me access to the commonwealth.
 
Thread starter #76
Would that not show a "change?" That there once was a time the Gentile was without Christ, excluded from the citizenship of Israel, and foreigners to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God?

The grafting in came later right? That part of God's plan entered time later. The Covenants of promise were made to Israel. Gentiles had to be spiritually or physically grafted in to receive these promises.

I can see Romans 11 explaining this. I'm not sure it means we have to be circumcised. Explain how a Remnant of Jews was chosen by grace and not works. Did their election by grace give them the power to be obedient?
That was the gospel that Jesus preached. For centuries the Jews had wondered how he would bring back the northern kingdom (House of Isreal) who he had divorced and sent away, but still loved deeply (Hosea) God's house was ALWAYS to be a house of prayer for ALL NATIONS. Jews during the 1st century HATED those from the northern kingdom, (Samaritans) and considered them 'unclean'. No man -created in God's image - has ever been declared unclean by God.

Circumcision is not a must....your heart has to be circumcised first... Physical circumcision is an act of obedience only. Like with Timothy.
 
Thread starter #77
Why did Jesus have to come in order for me to be grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel? Exactly how did his Death tear down the wall of hostility that kept me out?

Then explain why in Romans 11 Paul says it was Israel's hardening that allowed me access to the commonwealth.
The only way God could remarry the northern kingdom (who He had divorced) when His own Law forbid Him remarrying a wife that had slept with others, was through HIS OWN DEATH
 
As Gentiles, my ancestors were once far away from those covenants of promise. They were without hope and God. Jesus did something to remove that wall of hostility. He had a way of making the two become one.
What did Jesus do by death to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace?
 
Thread starter #79
As Gentiles, my ancestors were once far away from those covenants of promise. They were without hope and God. Jesus did something to remove that wall of hostility. He had a way of making the two become one.
What did Jesus do by death to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace?
He took the punishment of the adulterous bride. Death. That's how the two kingdoms could come back together. there is now no Jews or Greeks. You are either part of Isreal or you're not part of Israel.
 
The only way God could remarry the northern kingdom (who He had divorced) when His own Law forbid Him remarrying a wife that had slept with others, was through HIS OWN DEATH
Then why is Paul preaching that the Gentiles were strangers to the Covenants of promise? Why is Paul telling us there was a dividing wall between the Jew and Gentile? Why is Paul telling us in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Are you saying the dividing wall was just between the Tribes of Israel?
I've never heard Ephesians 2 explained that way considering who Paul was sent to preach to.
 
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