Anyone into the Hebrew roots of Christianity?

[BANDERSNATCH]

Then why is Paul preaching that the Gentiles were strangers to the Covenants of promise? Why is Paul telling us there was a dividing wall between the Jew and Gentile? Why is Paul telling us in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Are you saying the dividing wall was just between the Tribes of Israel?
I've never heard Ephesians 2 explained that way considering who Paul was sent to preach to.

Paul is correct. There was hatred between the Southern kingdom and Northern kingdom at that time. Gentiles (non-Jews) were not allowed past the "court of the Gentiles", which was NEVER part of God's design plan for the temple! Only the Holy of Holies was off limits to all but one man.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Why would Paul teach about the grafting in of the Gentiles in Romans if there wasn't a previous dividing wall that he said Jesus removed in Ephesians 2?
Does anyone care to tell me how the death of Jesus removed the dividing wall? What did Paul say it allowed? How did it allow the Gentiles to be grafted in?

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

Paul is correct. There was hatred between the Southern kingdom and Northern kingdom at that time. Gentiles (non-Jews) were not allowed past the "court of the Gentiles", which was NEVER part of God's design plan for the temple! Only the Holy of Holies was off limits to all but one man.

Another thing to consider is why thousands upon thousands converted at his preaching when he went to the Gentiles. Thousands converted because they were THE DISPERSION! They were from the northern kingdom and wondered how they would be brought back into covenant. Paul - the Torah genius - explained to them that Jesus had paid the penalty of the adulterous northern tribes.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Hint, what Christ's death did;
It abolished, it annulled, it ended, it made of no effect, it destroyed, ir canceled, it made void, something.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Another thing to consider is why thousands upon thousands converted at his preaching when he went to the Gentiles. Thousands converted because they were THE DISPERSION! They were from the northern kingdom and wondered how they would be brought back into covenant. Paul - the Torah genius - explained to them that Jesus had paid the penalty of the adulterous northern tribes.

Then it's quite possible that only the true Elect or Dispersed can hear God's voice. If God never changes, then should we assume, all who are from Israel are not Abraham's seed?
Wouldn't it have to always have been like this from the beginning of time?

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

Why would Paul teach about the grafting in of the Gentiles in Romans if there wasn't a previous dividing wall that he said Jesus removed in Ephesians 2?
Does anyone care to tell me how the death of Jesus removed the dividing wall? What did Paul say it allowed? How did it allow the Gentiles to be grafted in?

I believe the 'dividing wall' was the fact that the Jews had barred Gentiles from the temple....a temple that was always for all men. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you....

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

Then it's quite possible that only the true Elect or Dispersed can hear God's voice. If God never changes, then should we assume, all who are from Israel are not Abraham's seed?
Wouldn't it have to always have been like this from the beginning of time?

all who are of faith are Abraham's seed.....Faith makes you like Abraham and thus a heir of the promises

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

all who are of faith are Abraham's seed.....Faith makes you like Abraham and thus a heir of the promises

Oh....and the Law has been from the beginning....from Adam and Eve's time. Transgression is what brought the Law. It was oral to begin with.

 

[Spineyman]

Romans 8 :2-4
2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.…

Numbers 28:22
Include one male goat as a sin offering to make atonement for you.

Acts 13:39
Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses.

Romans 7:18
I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

Galatians 4:4
But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.

Hebrews 7:18
So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless

Hebrews 10:1
The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Hebrews 10:8
In the passage above He says, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor did You delight in them" (although they are required by the Law).
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:5-11
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death…
Acts 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
God.
Romans 8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Galatians 4:4,5
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, …

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1 Peter 4:1,2
For as much then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; …

So might I suggest you flee from the Law and flee to Christ, who is the only one that can save you.

​

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

Can I ask....how do you show God you love Him?

 

[Spineyman]

Colossians 2:17
These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 7:11
Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (upon which basis the people received the Law), why was there still need for another priest to appear--one in the order of Melchizedek and not in the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:19
(for the Law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 8:5
They serve at a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary. That is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle, "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

Hebrews 9:9
It is an illustration for the present time, because the gifts and sacrifices being offered were unable to cleanse the conscience of the worshiper.

Hebrews 9:11
But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come, He entered the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands (that is, not of this creation).

Hebrews 10:4
because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take away sins.

Hebrews 10:11
Day after day every priest stands to minister and to offer again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Hebrews 10:14
because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are sanctified.

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


Hebrews 9:9,11,23
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; …

Colossians 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Hebrews 10:3,4,11-18
But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year…


Hebrews 9:8,9,25
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: …

perfect.

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The law can not save you Christ is our only Help and our only Hope!

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

So, what you're saying is, you're content with grace and feel no need to show Him your appreciation? I don't know how many times I've said it....the Law does not save you! I've yet to say that even once. Obedience is how we show Him we love him.

 

[RegularJoe]

Can I ask....how do you show God you love Him?

For me ... m-o-s-t-l-y by endeavoring to be at least just a tad more each day like Christ.
My actual progress toward this objective is, for example, sometimes 1 step backwards followed by 2 steps forward, then 1/2 half step forward and so on and so forth ... in one word, erratic.

 

[Artfuldodger]

Romans 8 :2-4
2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.…

Numbers 28:22
Include one male goat as a sin offering to make atonement for you.

Acts 13:39
Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses.

Romans 7:18
I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

Galatians 4:4
But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.

Hebrews 7:18
So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless

Hebrews 10:1
The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Hebrews 10:8
In the passage above He says, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor did You delight in them" (although they are required by the Law).
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:5-11
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death…
Acts 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
God.
Romans 8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Galatians 4:4,5
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, …

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1 Peter 4:1,2
For as much then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; …

So might I suggest you flee from the Law and flee to Christ, who is the only one that can save you.

​

That being said, as we see salvation by grace alone and not of works, how do you show obedience to God? What does it mean to you to obey God? Just spell it out for me.

Forgive others? Help the poor? Do not swindle? Do not perform homosexual acts? Don't worship idols? Witness the Gospel? All of the above?

If we are to obey God, what are the guidelines? Can we pick and choose what Paul suggest about homosexuality? Fornication? Lust?

 

[Artfuldodger]

For me ... m-o-s-t-l-y by endeavoring to be at least just a tad more each day like Christ.
My actual progress toward this objective is, for example, sometimes 1 step backwards followed by 2 steps forward, then 1/2 half step forward and so on and so forth ... in one word, erratic.

I would imagine all of our endeavors to obey God are erratic, but somehow, somewhere we must have some type of idea what it means to obey God. I mean one can't even begin to obey God if he doesn't know what it even means.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

I would imagine all of our endeavors to obey God are erratic, but somehow, somewhere we must have some type of idea what it means to obey God. I mean one can't even begin to obey God if he doesn't know what it even means.

John tells us what sin is. Probably a good place to start. I John 3:4 "Sin is TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW"

 

[Artfuldodger]

John tells us what sin is. Probably a good place to start. I John 3:4 "Sin is TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW"

I just read through 1 John 3. That paints Christianity in a whole different light. To me it is saying that once can't just claim salvation and receive it. One can't just claim to be a brother or sister.

It says that we as Christians probably want even fit into what is seen as worldly. That one must practice righteousness as proof that we are born of Him.

We know that Christ appeared to take away our sins. No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.
The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. The one who practices sin is of the devil.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

Absolutely. Christians who believe standard pulpit talk don't like or read I John, typically. They just cherry pick I John 1:9 or 5:14,15

 

[Artfuldodger]

1 John 3:9
Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

For some reason, I thought Jesus came to do something that I couldn't do. I thought he came to replace the law that I couldn't keep.

So to die for my sins was just some way for me to gain God's seed so that I would have the power to quit sinning? Jesus didn't die to annul the law that we couldn't keep, he died to give us the power of the seed to quit sinning all together?

1 John 3:10
By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

I'm not sure I show enough of the distinguishing features as proof that I received the seed. I guess I had always put too much faith in Christ.

How does one go about knowing he has the proof that he has the seed of God?

Can someone "make" themself" saved by "making" themselves righteous? I guess what I'm asking is if the fruit is the proof and I don't have it, then I'm not saved.
I can't suddenly produce the fruit. I can't make myself saved if I'm not. I can't be scared into producing fruit.

If the seed is not there, well it's just not there. Not really anything I can actually do about it.

 

[BANDERSNATCH]

James says that if you truly believe, it will show, just as it did with Abraham. It wasn't enough for Abraham to just believe God, it took him going all the way to that mountain and tying Isaac up and attempting to kill him before God said, "Now I see your faith".

I think you're reading too much into this. If you have God's spirit (Romans 8:9) then you will have Spirit fruit.