Baptism: The third rail

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Irenaeus

`And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: `Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'” (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).
Why should we care what Irenaeus said? He added "again" to fit his agenda. "Except a man be born again through water."
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Is there other scriptures that support a second water birth to mean something other than the birth of the flesh? Maybe scripture that says a man must be born thrice. Once by flesh, and then again by water and spirit.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
What about the verses that say Jesus is the Living Water? I mean is it Jesus or literally God sanctified earthly water that saves?

John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

What exactly did Jesus mean that he is our Living Water? I do know that to live in the flesh requires water. Is Jesus talking about that or some other kind of spiritual water.
 

Madman

Senior Member
If you read the whole passage it's about two births. It's all about flesh and spirit.
Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”
Jesus answered,, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit.

It's describing a flesh(water) birth and a spiritual(Jesus) birth.
Rom. 6:3-4, Col. 2:12-13, Titus 3:5
These are some of the Scriptures referring to being born "again" as being born of water. Early Christians believed being born of water was being baptized and all the church fathers wrote about it in that way. I must yield to Holy Scripture as interpreted by the fathers in the original language, not by my fallen intellect 2000+ years removed.

Scripture teaches the washing by the waters of baptism is necessary as the birth by water of which is being taught.
 

Madman

Senior Member
What about the verses that say Jesus is the Living Water? I mean is it Jesus or literally God sanctified earthly water that saves?

John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

What exactly did Jesus mean that he is our Living Water? I do know that to live in the flesh requires water. Is Jesus talking about that or some other kind of spiritual water.
What about the verses that say Jesus is the Living Water? I mean is it Jesus or literally God sanctified earthly water that saves?

John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

What exactly did Jesus mean that he is our Living Water? I do know that to live in the flesh requires water. Is Jesus talking about that or some other kind of spiritual water.
Christ is what sustains us, his body through the eucharist just as manna sustained the Israelites in the wilderness his body is real food that sustains us here. Same with water.
 

Artfuldodger

Senior Member
Rom. 6:3-4, Col. 2:12-13, Titus 3:5
These are some of the Scriptures referring to being born "again" as being born of water. Early Christians believed being born of water was being baptized and all the church fathers wrote about it in that way. I must yield to Holy Scripture as interpreted by the fathers in the original language, not by my fallen intellect 2000+ years removed.

Scripture teaches the washing by the waters of baptism is necessary as the birth by water of which is being taught.
Of those three passages, Colossians 2:12-13 is the strongest for showing the necessity of baptism.
 

Madman

Senior Member
Of those three passages, Colossians 2:12-13 is the strongest for showing the necessity of baptism.
I think they all are, Titus speaks strongly about the regeneration of baptism and the renewing by the Holy Spirit.

When it comes to our beliefs we need to see everywhere Scripture speaks to the matter and then find ways to describe in total, what it is telling us, i.e. baptism.
 

welderguy

Senior Member
Christian baptism is greater than the baptism of John, it washes us clean of sin and infuses us with the Holy Spirit. Christ sanctified the water by going into it.

So you're telling me that all the people that John baptized, before he baptized Jesus, did not have a "Christian baptism" with all the perks the others had? Lol
 

NCHillbilly

Administrator
Staff member
I got baptized one time, long time ago. Preacher held me underwater in Jonathan Creek until I about drowned. I don't think it did me much good.
 

Spineyman

Senior Member
Jesus saw the Spirit of God? The Spirit of God landed upon Jesus? The time/moment God recognizes Jesus as His son?
God the Father did not recognize Jesus as His Son then. He just announced it to the world that He was His only begotten Son from all eternity. Jesus the Son was with the Father at Creation, long before His incarnation.
 
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Madman

Senior Member
So you're telling me that all the people that John baptized, before he baptized Jesus, did not have a "Christian baptism" with all the perks the others had? Lol
Wouldn't laugh so fast. Holy Scripture says they didn't.

John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, Scripture uses a Trinitarian baptism for Christians. You really should read Acts 19.
 

welderguy

Senior Member
Rom. 6:3-4, Col. 2:12-13, Titus 3:5
These are some of the Scriptures referring to being born "again" as being born of water. Early Christians believed being born of water was being baptized and all the church fathers wrote about it in that way. I must yield to Holy Scripture as interpreted by the fathers in the original language, not by my fallen intellect 2000+ years removed.

Scripture teaches the washing by the waters of baptism is necessary as the birth by water of which is being taught.

Why would John turn away the pharisees from being baptized if it would change them the way you say it does?
 

Madman

Senior Member
I got baptized one time, long time ago. Preacher held me underwater in Jonathan Creek until I about drowned. I don't think it did me much good.
If you were baptized with water, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and the person who baptized you did it with the intent of doing what the church says it does, then it did a lot of good.

You are a child of God, sealed by the Holy Spirit.
 

Madman

Senior Member
Why would John turn away the pharisees from being baptized if it would change them the way you say it does?
From the very passage it is evident that christian baptism is different than John's baptism.
 

Madman

Senior Member
Why would John turn away the pharisees from being baptized if it would change them the way you say it does?
Why do you kick against the goads? I have given you Scripture and verse, you don't argue with me you argue with the Word of God.
 

NCHillbilly

Administrator
Staff member
If you were baptized with water, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and the person who baptized you did it with the intent of doing what the church says it does, then it did a lot of good.

You are a child of God, sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Oh, it was very sincere. Running water, in a creek. Good trout stream, as a matter of fact.
 
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