Can a Man Be Saved from Sin or Born Again More Than Once?

Madman

Senior Member
That's an enigma of Christianity as it concerns scripture or "knowing" God. It's old scrolls and manuscripts written over and over with different translations and interpretations.
I'm not sure that without the Spirit helping our spirit, we'll ever understand.
Unless you have the teachings and meaning written down from the very beginning, hence the need for the church. What does Paul mean by these writings? 1 Cor. 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. or 2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. Apparently there are written and spoken traditions that are expected to be kept and followed.

What spirit should one listen too? Kenneth Copeland, Jimmy Swaggrt, the Pope, R.C. Sproul, all of these men are supposedly listening to the same spirit but give VERY different messages. The Church catholic has professed pretty much the same message for 2100 years.


One may study the Bible for years, even go to school on it and never actually "get it." He may gain the legalism of it all but may miss the spiritualism of it all.
Sounds like he is going to the wrong school.

All any of us can do is read it best we can and see where the Spirit leads us. We still have to rely on man. The ancient prophets, the modern apostles. The various translations, the Councils of Nicea, etc.
Who are the modern apostles? They are the bishops of the church catholic. It is their obligation to pass on the faith as it was handed down to them. It is their sworn duty to teach what was taught to them EXACTLY as it was given to them. James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Some denominations take that VERY seriously.


I would also say that most Protestants aren't required to learn and dig as deep as Catholics. I'm not saying either is right or wrong, just the way it is.
I don't know about that, Protestantism seems to focus on other things. The church catholic focuses on a life well lived in Christ Jesus, as savior and redeemer of the world. Everything about it connects the member of the church with the eternal church, the mystery, and the mystical. It reminds us that this realm is not all that exists. The worship of God takes the church catholic into another dimension, the mass proclaims; "where with angels and arch-angels and all the company of heaven we laud an magnify Thy Holy name, evermore praising Thee and saying; Holy,Holy, Holy, Lord god Almighty, heaven and earth are full of Thy glory".
 

Madman

Senior Member
Not to argue otherwise but reading Romans 9, Paul tells a different story. Somehow we must make it all fit. That is the hard part.

In Romans 9 God said, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
What was Paul's answer for this election? Does this make God unjust, unfair? No, says Paul, it means God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.
That is it doesn't depend on man's desire or effort but on God's mercy. Then he uses Pharoah as an example. Humans ask again; "Then why does God still blame us? Paul says we have no reason to ask.

Then Paul explains it using the Potter making good clay and evil clay for his plan and purpose. He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory.
He didn't say God used his foreknowledge of who Pharoah would be or what Israel would do.

Fast forward to Romans 11;

Romans 11:30-32, "For just as you (gentiles) once were disobedient to God, but now have received mercy on account of their (Jews) disobedience, (31) so also these now disobeyed for the sake of your mercy in order that they too might receive mercy. (32) For God shut up all unto disobedience in order that he might have mercy on all."

Is God using the evil that he foreknew to bring about good or did he form the clay to make it happen the way it did?

Personally I don't really see much of a difference in God using either method to achieve his plan. The results are the same.
That being said though as I read Romans 9-11, The Potter seems to be in total control to make it all happen according to his plan. More so than leaving it up to happenstance or even foreknowledge.

You still got me on 1 Timothy 2:3-4 though.
No argument, it is an excellent example of the inadequacy of modern language to describe an ancient event. The church has not agreed with modern reading of that passage for 2100 years (in so far as predestination). No one believed that until Calvin came along. I'll take a 2100 year old interpretation over a 500 year old interpretation any day.
 

Madman

Senior Member
You still got me on 1 Timothy 2:3-4 though.
No gotcha intended. When we take EVERYTHING in context, including the attributes of God, Holy Scripture, the Fathers of the Church, the creeds, the Doctors of the Church, tradition, etc., does it in anyway make sense in that God would make a person for the sole purpose of destruction? Perhaps we are reading something into the text that is not there. Perhaps we are applying modern definitions to ancient ideas.

Here is an example. Do you adore your wife? Do you worship your wife? Most Christians would say that we should worship only God but we can adore our wife, but if we take the ancient meaning of those words adoration is reserved only for God, but our wives are worthy of worship, we even see some translation dilemmas in Scripture.
 
No argument, it is an excellent example of the inadequacy of modern language to describe an ancient event. The church has not agreed with modern reading of that passage for 2100 years (in so far as predestination). No one believed that until Calvin came along. I'll take a 2100 year old interpretation over a 500 year old interpretation any day.
I read Romans 9-11 with my own eyes, not that of a Catholic or Calvin interpretation. I don't know the difference between the meaning using a 2,000 year old manuscript vs the modern one. Did the Councils miss something I'm not aware of concerning this passage?

They decided Romans to be Canon, perhaps you have an older reading of it. I'd be willing to read it if available.
If it is an excellent example of the inadequacy of modern language to describe an ancient event, maybe other scriptural event renditions are as well.

In your own words or that of the Church, did God cause the events as mentioned in Romans 9-11 as a Potter forming clay or did he use his foreknowledge of those involved to make the events happen according to his plan?
I mean even if salvation isn't predestined, what of these events? Were they not? Did God not form Pharoah for this very purpose? Did God not choose a remnant of Israel and harden the rest? Old or modern it happened one way or the other.

Either God uses his foreknowledge to see what will happen and thus make his will accordingly or he made the events happen by forming clay to make sure his plan happened.
 
Concerning Romans 9-11, I'm not saying that predestination leads to anyone's demise. The hardening may have been temporary.

“So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means!

Maybe the Potter temporarily hardens and blinds to make sure his mission happens the way he wanted it to. God had to make sure that His Son, Jesus was murdered.
That was his mission and the main reason that the Son incarnate as a man. He came through a certain predestined genealogy.

Israel was hardened. They haven't stumbled so as to fall. It was orchestrated to bring salvation to the Gentiles.

Actually in Romans 11, the branches broken off, Jew or Gentile, could be broken off again. So the grafting may not be permanent.

"For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either."
 

Madman

Senior Member
Concerning Romans 9-11, I'm not saying that predestination leads to anyone's demise. The hardening may have been temporary.

“So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means!

Maybe the Potter temporarily hardens and blinds to make sure his mission happens the way he wanted it to. God had to make sure that His Son, Jesus was murdered.
That was his mission and the main reason that the Son incarnate as a man. He came through a certain predestined genealogy.

Israel was hardened. They haven't stumbled so as to fall. It was orchestrated to bring salvation to the Gentiles.

Actually in Romans 11, the branches broken off, Jew or Gentile, could be broken off again. So the grafting may not be permanent.

"For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either."
Paul uses the potter analogy is used as a simple parable, God has the right to to assign men as he pleases in the order of the world. He makes some kings, doctors, etc. but it may not be fixed as permanent.
 
Thread starter #267
David certainly did his first works again after he backslid, and he was renewed again (Ps. 51:1-14). David wanted the same joy and spirit renewed in him that he had before; so it is Biblical and right for backsliders to ask and expect the same blessings they had before, and not to be satisfied and quit seeking God until these blessings are again experienced.
 
He will not forsake even one of His redeemed. When the last one has been called and sealed, then it will be time. Not one second sooner.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
You just gave the verse proving that Calvinist are wrong lol. It is Gods will for all to be saved. With free will people reject him. I haven’t posted in here in forever but I still swing through but anyone who believes that God chooses people for he11 and people for heaven are just not right.
Like centerpin has said this has been discussed and discussed. We all are set in our ways with this subject.
 
Gal. 1:6-9
6- I marvel that ye are so soon REMOVED from him that called you INTO THE GRACE of Christ unto ANOTHER GOSPEL:
Gal. 4:19
19- My little children, of whom I travail in BIRTH AGAIN until Christ be formed in you.
This is Bible not here say, Any one on here show me where it says once saved always saved in the bible, KJV. I heard preachers preach a many time to the church members of the church about they need to repent or renew if it is once saved always save, then why do they need to be preach to as like to a sinner: I want you to know I am not being smart or hatful to you just try to be a help I will not post any thing on here that I do not have scriptures on. People need to really learn what the Word Grace means.

There are several verses but first we must see what is saved. It isn’t our flesh because the Bible says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. It is our soul that is born again. So,,,,,
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬
This is eternal salvation verse. John 3:16 says everlasting life. The lake of fire is death. So how can someone who has everlasting life have eternal death.
 
You just gave the verse proving that Calvinist are wrong lol. It is Gods will for all to be saved. With free will people reject him. I haven’t posted in here in forever but I still swing through but anyone who believes that God chooses people for he11 and people for heaven are just not right.
Like centerpin has said this has been discussed and discussed. We all are set in our ways with this subject.
I am definitely not a follower of John Calvin.
Tell me more about this "he11" you speak of.
 
Thread starter #271
There is nothing in nature but what can be revived, restored, recast, refinished, rebuilt, reanimated, refashioned and remade by proper and expert makers and creators. Especially is this true of the Great Creator. To say that He cannot restore to life or to a moral and righteous state again and again, if needful, is to limit Him to a lower plane than nature man, who can restore and refinish and remake anything that he has one time made.
 
You just gave the verse proving that Calvinist are wrong lol. It is Gods will for all to be saved. With free will people reject him. I haven’t posted in here in forever but I still swing through but anyone who believes that God chooses people for he11 and people for heaven are just not right.
Like centerpin has said this has been discussed and discussed. We all are set in our ways with this subject.
Then you obviously don't believe in God's written Word either!

Proverbs 16:3-5

…3 Commit your works to the LORD, and your plans will be achieved. 4 The LORD has made everything for His purpose— even the wicked for the day of disaster. 5 Everyone who is proud in heart is detestable to the LORD; be assured that he will not go unpunished.…

Romans 9:22
What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?
 
Thread starter #273
God taught that He would make Israel anew again if they would repent (Jer.18:1-10). also Isa. 1:16-18; Jer. 3:13-15; 4:1-4; Hosea 6:1-3; 10:12, 13; 2 Chron. 7:14.
 
God taught that He would make Israel anew again if they would repent (Jer.18:1-10). also Isa. 1:16-18; Jer. 3:13-15; 4:1-4; Hosea 6:1-3; 10:12, 13; 2 Chron. 7:14.
Romans 11:25-26
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
 
Then you obviously don't believe in God's written Word either!

Proverbs 16:3-5

…3 Commit your works to the LORD, and your plans will be achieved. 4 The LORD has made everything for His purpose— even the wicked for the day of disaster. 5 Everyone who is proud in heart is detestable to the LORD; be assured that he will not go unpunished.…

Romans 9:22
What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?
“The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭16:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Not to get in trouble here but I use the KJV and it reads different from what you posted. The verse in Proverbs is saying God had made all things. Even the wicked he made. He didn’t make them that way but they chose to be wicked. This verse is just stating he has created all things.
 
There is nothing in nature but what can be revived, restored, recast, refinished, rebuilt, reanimated, refashioned and remade by proper and expert makers and creators. Especially is this true of the Great Creator. To say that He cannot restore to life or to a moral and righteous state again and again, if needful, is to limit Him to a lower plane than nature man, who can restore and refinish and remake anything that he has one time made.
To say what has been born again of God, meaning that that God didn’t make the soul perfect when we was born again is crazy talk. Our works shall be tried by fire. What we have done since salvation whether we was obedient to the precious Holy Spirit and did as he led is what will be tried as of works. Clearly the Bible teaches us “not of works lest any should boast”
 
“The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭16:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Not to get in trouble here but I use the KJV and it reads different from what you posted. The verse in Proverbs is saying God had made all things. Even the wicked he made. He didn’t make them that way but they chose to be wicked. This verse is just stating he has created all things.
Romans 9:17-23

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
 
In Romans 11, a remnant was chosen by grace and the rest of Israel was hardened.

“God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”

It follows the story of the Potter in Romans 9.
 
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