Can a Man Be Saved from Sin or Born Again More Than Once?

Romans 9:17-23

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
“For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“IF” ——- < looks like a choice to me.
Why does the Bible say
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:29‬ ‭KJV

How do you Foreknow or have foreknowledge. You know this because you you know whether someone will accept the Lord or reject the Lord. All was given the choice.
 
Just curious if you beluieve the scripture that says. All are dead, key word dead in their trespasses and sins? Now the last time I checked, dead men don't do anything, are not capable of doing anything? Let me give you an illustration. Did Lazurus ( completely dead ) have a choice to not come forth when the Son of the Most High called him forth. In other word could have refused to come out, and then stayed in the grave which he laid? I submit to you that unless the Holy Spirit draws you ( God initiating first ) then you will not respond in any manner. There is no such thing as free will. God acts, we respond period!
 
Just curious if you beluieve the scripture that says. All are dead, key word dead in their trespasses and sins? Now the last time I checked, dead men don't do anything, are not capable of doing anything? Let me give you an illustration. Did Lazurus ( completely dead ) have a choice to not come forth when the Son of the Most High called him forth. In other word could have refused to come out, and then stayed in the grave which he laid? I submit to you that unless the Holy Spirit draws you ( God initiating first ) then you will not respond in any manner. There is no such thing as free will. God acts, we respond period!
You just contradicted yourself. You said we respond, that’s a choice
 
Just curious if you beluieve the scripture that says. All are dead, key word dead in their trespasses and sins? Now the last time I checked, dead men don't do anything, are not capable of doing anything? Let me give you an illustration. Did Lazurus ( completely dead ) have a choice to not come forth when the Son of the Most High called him forth. In other word could have refused to come out, and then stayed in the grave which he laid? I submit to you that unless the Holy Spirit draws you ( God initiating first ) then you will not respond in any manner. There is no such thing as free will. God acts, we respond period!
But yes, without the drawing of the spirit John 6:44 we can not be saved. It is still a choice to accept or reject. Your verse your talking about is Ephesians and I know it well. I do t know it all by far but have done much much studying in this. You are neglecting Ephesians chapt 1
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It says after that he believed. It is up to us to believe or not.
 
But yes, without the drawing of the spirit John 6:44 we can not be saved. It is still a choice to accept or reject. Your verse your talking about is Ephesians and I know it well. I do t know it all by far but have done much much studying in this. You are neglecting Ephesians chapt 1
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It says after that he believed. It is up to us to believe or not.
But one still has to be "called" first by the "drawing." Then one can choose. So is every individual "called?"

Is every individual person called by God to be Elected?
 
According to John 3:16 it says the world. According to 2nd Peter 3:9 it says not willing that “any”. Romans 10:13 says “For whosever”. The Bible says in acts “both”
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬ The uttermost part of the earth was just as important than the Jerusalem
 
But one still has to be "called" first by the "drawing." Then one can choose. So is every individual "called?"

Is every individual person called by God to be Elected?
As far as election this verse is pretty plain and simple.
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Elect according” election is according to the foreknowledge before the foundations of the earth. God knew all that would accept or reject. Therefore he called who he knew through the foreknowledge of our decisions who would except or reject.
 
As far as election this verse is pretty plain and simple.
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Elect according” election is according to the foreknowledge before the foundations of the earth. God knew all that would accept or reject. Therefore he called who he knew through the foreknowledge of our decisions who would except or reject.
But those he foreknew, he also predestined.

I see what you are saying as I once believed as you. Then I realized that in the long run, it's the same thing.

If God, using foreknowledge, only calls those he saw accept, then when did the ones that rejected get a chance at the call? The ones who have never even heard the gospel call?

Also if only those God foresaw get a call, it's basically the same as predestination. God, even if he only has just seen who will answer, already knows. Know one can now undo what God has already seen.

Let's just say that God has already seen that Omar will not accept his call. God saw this before time. There is no way that Omar can now receive the call as God has already seen that he won't accept it.
Omar can not change what God has already seen.
 
But those he foreknew, he also predestined.

I see what you are saying as I once believed as you. Then I realized that in the long run, it's the same thing.

If God, using foreknowledge, only calls those he saw accept, then when did the ones that rejected get a chance at the call? The ones who have never even heard the gospel call?

Also if only those God foresaw get a call, it's basically the same as predestination. God, even if he only has just seen who will answer, already knows. Know one can now undo what God has already seen.

Let's just say that God has already seen that Omar will not accept his call. God saw this before time. There is no way that Omar can now receive the call as God has already seen that he won't accept it.
Omar can not change what God has already seen.
God knows Omar never excepted even at death. He knows everything.
 
Art do you pray. If you do then why
Obedience? I use to pray that God would intervene and change his plan to my plan. Let's say God's plan was for me to die from a sickness I acquired. I would pray for God to change what he had already seen, such as my death, from the sickness to a future event in time.

What about when people pray for all sorts of things and end the prayer with "and they will be done?" Isn't God's will always done?

Now, knowing God has already seen how everything has happened, I'm not sure. Could the Jews have not turned on God? Therefore making God change His plan to that of the Jews? What if Adam had not sinned? Does God change from plan B as dictated by man?

If God has already seen, then in the aspect of changing anything, it's the same as if God had caused it as well. I'm just saying in that respect, it makes no difference.
God can't change what he has already seen happen. Because he would have already seen that change as well.
 
So even if God didn't cause the Jews to reject Jesus, He knew that they would by His foreknowledge. In that respect, that foreknowledge attribute of God is as good as God causing the Jews to reject Jesus.

If God foresaw that the Jews would not reject Jesus, He would have already known that and would have chosen another race. So in many ways, in the final outcome, foreknowledge is the same as God causing his plan to happen the way he wanted it to.

Take Pharoah as an example. Even if God didn't harden Pharoah's heart, God still knew that Pharoah would do what he did to make God's plan happen. Pharoah had no other choice than to perform the way God had already seen.

If I go to my closet to choose between a red and blue shirt, God has already seen my choice. So even if he doesn't cause me to choose the blue shirt, because he has already seen my choice, I have no other choice than to choose my blue shirt.
 
So even if God didn't cause the Jews to reject Jesus, He knew that they would by His foreknowledge. In that respect, that foreknowledge attribute of God is as good as God causing the Jews to reject Jesus.

If God foresaw that the Jews would not reject Jesus, He would have already known that and would have chosen another race. So in many ways, in the final outcome, foreknowledge is the same as God causing his plan to happen the way he wanted it to.

Take Pharoah as an example. Even if God didn't harden Pharoah's heart, God still knew that Pharoah would do what he did to make God's plan happen. Pharoah had no other choice than to perform the way God had already seen.

If I go to my closet to choose between a red and blue shirt, God has already seen my choice. So even if he doesn't cause me to choose the blue shirt, because he has already seen my choice, I have no other choice than to choose my blue shirt.
I pray because I don’t know his will. What if because of foreknowledge he saw if I did or if I didn’t pray for the healing power for a family member. Ye have not because you ask not. Why be a watchmen and warn if it has no affect. We will be accountable for our obedience.
 
“Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To say God made all things happened means he has pleasure in Sin. I know he don’t have pleasure in sin. Man choice to sin. If God brought Sin into the world then he made Jesus die for sin. In another words God murdered his son. I’m so glad it’s not like that. My Lord choice to lay down his life for someone as worthless as me.
 
But yes, without the drawing of the spirit John 6:44 we can not be saved. It is still a choice to accept or reject. Your verse your talking about is Ephesians and I know it well. I do t know it all by far but have done much much studying in this. You are neglecting Ephesians chapt 1
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It says after that he believed. It is up to us to believe or not.





You say you believe free will? Ok ... Free from what? Free from sin? Does the Bible teach this? Did not Jesus say, "He who sins is a slave to sin, but if the Son sets you free you will be free indeed." If I understand correctly, a slave is not free. And here Jesus defines freedom relative to sin. So the question is, can a sinful, fallen, natural person come to faith in Jesus apart from grace, apart from the Holy Spirit? Apart from Jesus setting him free (John 6:63, 65, 1 Cor 2:14) if you say "no" then you already acknowledge human beings are not born free. You see ... the very need for grace does away with free will altogether. What need is there for grace if we are already free? It is precisely because we are not free, but captives, that we need Jesus to set us free. That is what the gospel is all about.
 
“Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To say God made all things happened means he has pleasure in Sin. I know he don’t have pleasure in sin. Man choice to sin. If God brought Sin into the world then he made Jesus die for sin. In another words God murdered his son. I’m so glad it’s not like that. My Lord choice to lay down his life for someone as worthless as me.
It is all a bit confusing, but realize the Word was with God before time. Even before Adam sinned, God was already a Father.

Concerning Revelation 4:11, perhaps we pray for God's purpose and glory instead of man's needs and wants.
 
Scripture Verses Disproving the False Doctrine of "Free Will"

Ordination:

Acts 13:48, " And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

Foreordination:

Ephesians 1:4, “Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love:"

Merit excluded:

Ephesians 2:1-10, " And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Man does not seek God, does not understand:

Romans 3:11 "No one understands; no one seeks for God."

1Corinthians 2:14 "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Man does not (naturally) fear God:

Romans 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Man, prior to new birth, is spiritually dead. God's mercy is God's choice alone:

Romans 9:15-16 "For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

God's mercy leads to repentance:

Romans 2:4 "Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?

Repentance is God-given:"

2 Timothy 2:25 "Correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to knowledge of the truth. "

Faith is God-given:

Philippians 1:29 " For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake."

Salvation, faith and repentance are God-given:

1 Corinthians 4:7 "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"

Man's heart opened by God:

Acts 16:14 “One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul."

Luke 24:44-45 " Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,"

Man's heart hardened by God:

Romans 9:18 “So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

Joshua 11:20 " For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses."

Deuteronomy 2:30 " But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as he is this day."

Man's heart and ears "circumcised" by God:

Proverbs 20:12 “The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the Lord has made them both."

Psalm 40:6 “In sacrifice and offering You have not delighted, but You have given me an open ear.Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required."

Deuteronomy 30:6 “And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live."

Fear of God comes from God:

Jeremiah 32:40 “I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts that they may not turn from me."

New birth comes before faith:

John 3:3 "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

New birth is by the will of God:

John 1:12-13 " But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will."

John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

John 3:6-8 " That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again. 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Matthew 16:15-17 "Identity of Christ He said to them, But who do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."
 
Man unable able to come to Christ but by God:

John 6:44-45 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, and they will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me."

God hides knowledge from some:

Luke 10:21-23 " In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. 22 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 23 Then turning to the disciples he said privately, blessed are the eyes that see what you see!"

God reveals hidden knowledge to some:

Luke 10:21 " In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will."

Matthew 13:11 "He answered them, to you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given."

Matthew 13:16-17 "But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17 For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. "

1Corinthians 2:7-16 " But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written, what no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him. 10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

Elect cannot possibly lose salvation:

John 6:38-40 " For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 10:27-30 " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

Romans 8:29-30 "For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called he also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified."

Non-elect cannot possibly obtain salvation:

John 6:44-45 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, and they will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me."

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come."

Revelation 13:8 "And all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain."

The only "free-will" natural man has is willful blindness:

Deuteronomy 29:4 "But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. "

Romans 3:11-20 "No one understands; no one seeks for God.12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.13 Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips.14 Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.15 Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 in their paths are ruin and misery,17 and the way of peace they have not known.18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. "

So it is not "free-will" that we need but mercy ... mercy to disarm and deliver us from our inflexible, obstinate, fortified self-will and its captivity to sin and the Devil:

John 8:34-36 "Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. "

2 Timothy 2:26 "And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."

"Free will" is man's problem, not the solution:

Romans 9:16 "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
 
I pray because I don’t know his will. What if because of foreknowledge he saw if I did or if I didn’t pray for the healing power for a family member. Ye have not because you ask not. Why be a watchmen and warn if it has no affect. We will be accountable for our obedience.
I can remember as a child, praying for a family member to find Jesus. I was sincere in wanting it for the family member and not myself. I truly didn't want this family member to burn in He11 for eternity.

Yet if God already knew this family member would or wouldn't, I'm not sure my prayer could change God's will. Maybe my prayer was to soothe me. To somehow give me hope that God could reach this person even if I couldn't.
 
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