Can a Man Be Saved from Sin or Born Again More Than Once?

hobbs27

Senior Member
Seriously? Man's ceremonial atonement — a gentle breeze blows that straw man away.
So ..I didn't even know there was an argument on this to be made much less a straw man to build.
 
So in 70 ad. He got what He paid for at the cross...or He has still not recieved what He paid for nearly 2k years ago.
He will not forsake even one of His redeemed. When the last one has been called and sealed, then it will be time. Not one second sooner.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
He will not forsake even one of His redeemed. When the last one has been called and sealed, then it will be time. Not one second sooner.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, But desire fulfilled is a tree of life.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Hebrews 6:19
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;. :p
Very good choice.

The anchor of their hope was sure and steadfast, meaning that it was totally secure in that the chain couldn't break, and the anchor couldn't slip off. And into what place did the Author say this chain/anchor ..hope.. Extended?

The presence behind the veil, or more literally the place behind the veil.. The most holy place. The veil of the temple represented Jesus, so when He died the veil was torn in half in order to signify His death, but not only that, for man through Jesus is now invited into the very presence of God.

However, since the full glories of that invitation wouldn't be realized until Christ's high priestly work was completed, then the veil also signified the transition Christ was making from one covenant to another. In other words, by 70ad. , after a generation of grace for the Jew's, everything connected with the old law was totally and finally removed by Christ, thereby completing God's scheme of redemption.
 
Very good choice.

The anchor of their hope was sure and steadfast, meaning that it was totally secure in that the chain couldn't break, and the anchor couldn't slip off. And into what place did the Author say this chain/anchor ..hope.. Extended?

The presence behind the veil, or more literally the place behind the veil.. The most holy place. The veil of the temple represented Jesus, so when He died the veil was torn in half in order to signify His death, but not only that, for man through Jesus is now invited into the very presence of God.
I agree with this^^^

But, what is your basis for this scripturally?:

However, since the full glories of that invitation wouldn't be realized until Christ's high priestly work was completed, then the veil also signified the transition Christ was making from one covenant to another. In other words, by 70ad. , after a generation of grace for the Jew's, everything connected with the old law was totally and finally removed by Christ, thereby completing God's scheme of redemption.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
I agree with this^^^

But, what is your basis for this scripturally?:
There's just so much scripture for this it's hard to know what to start with... I'll begin with this.


Luke 21:

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Notice how this flows perfectly with Daniel 9.

Daniel was told that seventy weeks were determined to fulfill ALL prophecy, and the end of his vision was the destruction of the temple.. 70ad. There is no prophecy past that time, it was the end of the age.


The Jewish people knew the prophecy, they didn't understand it until the Holy Spirit came on the scene to reveal it.

Remember Martha speaking of her brother Lazarus, " I know he will rise in the latter day"?
She didn't think they were in the last days, she had no reason to, but look what is declared just a short time later by Peter.

Acts 2:
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;

Peter just declared they were in the last days... The latter day Martha knew the dead would be raised.

Acts 2:

“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

(70ad made His foes . His footstool.) Jesus sat at the Fathers right hand until the enemy was destroyed.
 
“Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words."

If still in the future, why is he just addressing the men of Judea? If scripture is a parallels of two destructions and two salvations, how do we determine which scripture is for which destruction and salvation?

In the Gospel accounts, at what verse does the timeline change from Jerusalem's destruction to the "end times?"
 
So... this vvv...


Originally posted by hobbs27
There's just so much scripture for this it's hard to know what to start with... I'll begin with this.


Luke 21:

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Notice how this flows perfectly with Daniel 9.

Daniel was told that seventy weeks were determined to fulfill ALL prophecy, and the end of his vision was the destruction of the temple.. 70ad. There is no prophecy past that time, it was the end of the age.


The Jewish people knew the prophecy, they didn't understand it until the Holy Spirit came on the scene to reveal it.

Remember Martha speaking of her brother Lazarus, " I know he will rise in the latter day"?
She didn't think they were in the last days, she had no reason to, but look what is declared just a short time later by Peter.

Acts 2:
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;

Peter just declared they were in the last days... The latter day Martha knew the dead would be raised.

Acts 2:

“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

(70ad made His foes . His footstool.) Jesus sat at the Fathers right hand until the enemy was destroyed.




...is what you base this vvv on?..


However, since the full glories of that invitation wouldn't be realized until Christ's high priestly work was completed, then the veil also signified the transition Christ was making from one covenant to another. In other words, by 70ad. , after a generation of grace for the Jew's, everything connected with the old law was totally and finally removed by Christ, thereby completing God's scheme of redemption.
I don't see all that in those passages..but thanks anyway.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Hebrews 9

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Welder.. I know you don't see what I see in those verses. What I don't know is why you can't see it.
We were discussing earlier if Jesus was still sitting by the right hand of the Father or has He returned to announce salvation. Then I see in Acts... (Which I've read no telling how many times) Jesus was to sit UNTIL His foes were made a footstool.

See now Christ sits on His throne with the Pharisee and scribes and apostate Jew's as His footstool... They were crushed... He doesn't sit at the right hand of the Father anymore.
 
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Thread starter #173
if you could do something to loose your salvation then you would have to do something to gain it and that would mean it would fall under works but God said we are saved by grace through faith
Gal. 1:6-9
6- I marvel that ye are so soon REMOVED from him that called you INTO THE GRACE of Christ unto ANOTHER GOSPEL:
Gal. 4:19
19- My little children, of whom I travail in BIRTH AGAIN until Christ be formed in you.
This is Bible not here say, Any one on here show me where it says once saved always saved in the bible, KJV. I heard preachers preach a many time to the church members of the church about they need to repent or renew if it is once saved always save, then why do they need to be preach to as like to a sinner: I want you to know I am not being smart or hatful to you just try to be a help I will not post any thing on here that I do not have scriptures on. People need to really learn what the Word Grace means.
 
Welder.. I know you don't see what I see in those verses. What I don't know is why you can't see it.
We were discussing earlier if Jesus was still sitting by the right hand of God or has He returned to announce salvation. Then I see in Acts... (Which I've read no telling how many times) Jesus was to sit UNTIL His foes were made a footstool.

See now Christ sits on His throne with the Pharisee and scribes and apostate Jew's as His footstool... They were crushed... He doesn't sit at the right hand of the father anymore.
I have a few problems with what you just said.
First of all, as I've already stated, Jesus' sitting down signified salvation was accomplished.

Next thing, Jesus was coronated as King upon entering into heaven at His ascension.He was restored to His former glory and He sat down on His throne(which was,and is, at the right hand of the Father.)

One more thing, these foes that you describe,(pharisees,scribes,and apostate Jews), are only a feeble fraction of the foes that are made His footstool. Man is nothing and less than nothing to God. He laughs at them.They are described as grass and dust. He tells us that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. These powers are still working in the world today and I think you are naive if you think all His foes have been made His footstool. Jesus is ruling on His throne ,"conquering", but the "to conquer" is still yet to come. They will be thrown into the lake of fire.
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Welder sitting beside the King does not coronate one to the Kingship. It's a position of great honor and one of authority. Jesus was King of the Jews way before His death and resurrection and ascension. Also.. Salvation while a promise of many had received, it had not yet come. They faithfully waited for His return to bring His reward.. Eternal life.

As for the foes of Christ. The apostate Jew's, Pharisees, and scribes were responsible for killing Jesus, they shouted out, crucify him. They were the only foes to Jesus as man.

To include future foes..would make one a dominionist.. I didn't think you were a dominionist, but it's a welcome admission.
 
Welder sitting beside the King does not coronate one to the Kingship. It's a position of great honor and one of authority. Jesus was King of the Jews way before His death and resurrection and ascension. Also.. Salvation while a promise of many had received, it had not yet come. They faithfully waited for His return to bring His reward.. Eternal life.

As for the foes of Christ. The apostate Jew's, Pharisees, and scribes were responsible for killing Jesus, they shouted out, crucify him. They were the only foes to Jesus as man.

To include future foes..would make one a dominionist.. I didn't think you were a dominionist, but it's a welcome admission.
Make no mistake, Jesus has been King of Kings and Lord of Lords for eternity. In no way did I mean to imply He wasn't.
Hebrews 7 tells us He was a priest forever after the order of Melchizedec, king of Salem, having no beginning and no end. He sprang from the tribe of Juda, not Levi. Therefore, He was a king and a priest forever,with no beginning and no end.


This text in Hebrews 2:8-9 says better what I was trying to say earlier about the footstool.Notice even though all things are put under Jesus' feet(present tense for the Hebrews); they didn't SEE it yet. And I say, we don't either...yet.

Heb.2:8-9
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

***notice the Hebrews already "see Him crowned"***
 
Welder.. I know you don't see what I see in those verses. What I don't know is why you can't see it.
We were discussing earlier if Jesus was still sitting by the right hand of the Father or has He returned to announce salvation. Then I see in Acts... (Which I've read no telling how many times) Jesus was to sit UNTIL His foes were made a footstool.

See now Christ sits on His throne with the Pharisee and scribes and apostate Jew's as His footstool... They were crushed... He doesn't sit at the right hand of the Father anymore.
Where does he sit now?
 

hobbs27

Senior Member
Make no mistake, Jesus has been King of Kings and Lord of Lords for eternity. In no way did I mean to imply He wasn't.
Hebrews 7 tells us He was a priest forever after the order of Melchizedec, king of Salem, having no beginning and no end. He sprang from the tribe of Juda, not Levi. Therefore, He was a king and a priest forever,with no beginning and no end.


This text in Hebrews 2:8-9 says better what I was trying to say earlier about the footstool.Notice even though all things are put under Jesus' feet(present tense for the Hebrews); they didn't SEE it yet. And I say, we don't either...yet.

Heb.2:8-9
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

***notice the Hebrews already "see Him crowned"***
I know and agree they had not seen Him yet. The temple was still standing, but * check me on this* let's back up to verse 5 of this Chapter.
For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

The word (For) makes the warning of 2:1-4 a connector between Ch. 1:1-14 and 2:5-18: therefore 2:5-18 present even more reasons why the recipients of this letter should avoid forsaking Christ.

The Greek term used here for World is not the term for planet or the term for age... It is a term for " a certain people" of a certain age of planet earth... Ie. A kingdom of citizens.

The original root term for the phrase ( to come) (Mello) means "about to come" or " at the point of coming back"

So, they had not seen Him, the Temple was still standing but they knew, for them He was about to come.

Hebrews 1:14 also
" Those who will (are about to) inherit Salvation "

6:5 " The powers of the age ( about) to come.

9:11 " Christ came as High Priest of the good things ( about) to come.

I love the KJV, but it did a great injustice to its readers by missing the meaning of (Mello).
 
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