Consciousness

I absolutely see and completely understand the appeal.
But I cant help but wonder if some of that appeal and wishing stems from the fact that whether consciously or subconsciously you know they cant and wont and that's where this appeal/wish stems from.
And that's part of my point. I suck at explaining things but.....
Things that appeal to us, things that we wish for, things that we want to accomplish etc are what make life go 'round and motivate us, provide us enjoyment etc.
I cant help but wonder if some of that gets lost when you know "they" aren't going anywhere. When you know "Ive got forever to accomplish this", would I enjoy trout fishing with friends as much today if I know I could do that forever.
Even the pain involved with putting your dog down. Isnt that pain a part of "living"? A part of what makes us appreciate life?

An "eliminating death" question from a different angle -
Right at this very moment what keeps us from being in an all out nuke war with NK?
The death toll.
Now eliminate the death toll.
Considering man's inherent desire to war, do you think we would revert to all singing kumbaya or do you think no death toll would be all the reason we need for perpetual nuke wars?
Immortality would be used as a tool to gain, have and keep power.

Man never uses anything to help all the masses. Things like money, immortality etc etc are used to keep the masses in line.
 
Thread starter #62

ambush80

Senior Member
Does 2+2=4 exist even if there are no beings to think about it? Does "Jesus is Lord" work the same way? What about before anything exists? What's he lording over then? Nothing?:p
He's just out there, nowhere, all by himself lording over nothing. But there's not nothing, cuz He's there.:D
 
Thread starter #63

ambush80

Senior Member
Immortality would be used as a tool to gain, have and keep power.

Man never uses anything to help all the masses. Things like money, immortality etc etc are used to keep the masses in line.
Oh, you old cynic.:mad:

From Inherit the Wind:

"They're simple people, Henry; poor people. They work hard and they need to believe in something, something beautiful. Why do you want to take that away from them? It's all they have."

And from the Neo-Conservative, Intelligent Design proponent Irving Kristol:

"If there is one indisputable fact about the human condition it is that no community can survive if it is persuaded--or even suspects--that its members are leading meaningless lives in a meaningless universe."
 

Israel

Senior Member
The existential dilemma that you're trying to describe here can be resolved without the need of un-provable claims. The seeing born from the Savior's light (whatever the heck that means) is a fiction until you can demonstrate otherwise.
"He who is forgiven little, loves little, he who is forgiven much, loves much."

The weeds get so thick at times one can easily be distracted by false light. As though"a" belief in "a" god is somehow of a sufficiency to the soul. But all men have gods, and the what and who of their consistency is made plain in their attentions. And intentions.

The scriptures are plain as to the myriad things a man might serve with his life, in this life, going so far as to readily admit "there be gods many, and lords many".

There is no lack of abundance to which a man might yield himself in worship. But there is one Savior. One who appears to the saving of the soul from that panoply of false gods. There is no salvation in any other. His appearance and salvation are plainly manifest among those which have been convinced (by another) of their need of salvation.

To the soul that satisfies itself (as a man at a smorgasbord might) with his picking and choosing of those things which please (living for pleasure alone) what need of salvation? Oh, there may be some interest expressed as to knowing whether there be "a" God, like another thing he might put on his plate to supplement all else of his choosing, but to such a man, that is merely something else to have, to know.

But Jesus is quite plain. "Clear the plate", there is nothing else needed, for there is in reality, nothing else at all, except the knowing of Himself. And that it is only the knowing of Him, that any can begin to come to the knowing of the God above all gods. And that that God has ordained this, the God of salvation, has made, and wills, to only make Himself known through that appointed One, that elect One, that chosen One. Jesus is unremitting (as I believe you know, and so many bewail) in His exclusivity.

He was, and is prepared, for the receiving of all projection
of all malignant motives a man (any man) might cast his way by that projection. "He wants to make Himself something" "He thinks he is better than us..." "He only seeks glory for Himself" "He blasphemes".

When a man is brought to see (by the convincing of another) the true place where these things are resident (but are shunted off by projection), then he begins to appreciate a need of his soul's salvation. And likewise the provision of a savior, indeed, the Savior of whose innocent blood he is now made aware of his part in spilling. Till then it is "all else" at fault, all else up for vilification, all else held in his eye for reviling, for to himself, and of himself...he is more than OK. (Not like Hitler, at the very least!) Or, that publican there. Or, those benighted gullibles...there.

The soul unaware by the Spirit's light, though, is precisely the need crying out answered by the God of salvation. To despise it, to find fault in it...is just another form of projection against self ignorance. And only invites a deeper working of the Spirit's light toward salvation. The man who blames his brother for "not seeing" is shown to only be the one, blaming himself.

And so it goes. He who is forgiven little, loves little, he who is forgiven much, loves much.


And no man can bear to see the "just how much" he has been all wrong, apart from the mercy shown in the Savior's light.
 
"He who is forgiven little, loves little, he who is forgiven much, loves much."

The weeds get so thick at times one can easily be distracted by false light. As though"a" belief in "a" god is somehow of a sufficiency to the soul. But all men have gods, and the what and who of their consistency is made plain in their attentions. And intentions.

The scriptures are plain as to the myriad things a man might serve with his life, in this life, going so far as to readily admit "there be gods many, and lords many".

There is no lack of abundance to which a man might yield himself in worship. But there is one Savior. One who appears to the saving of the soul from that panoply of false gods. There is no salvation in any other. His appearance and salvation are plainly manifest among those which have been convinced (by another) of their need of salvation.

To the soul that satisfies itself (as a man at a smorgasbord might) with his picking and choosing of those things which please (living for pleasure alone) what need of salvation? Oh, there may be some interest expressed as to knowing whether there be "a" God, like another thing he might put on his plate to supplement all else of his choosing, but to such a man, that is merely something else to have, to know.

But Jesus is quite plain. "Clear the plate", there is nothing else needed, for there is in reality, nothing else at all, except the knowing of Himself. And that it is only the knowing of Him, that any can begin to come to the knowing of the God above all gods. And that that God has ordained this, the God of salvation, has made, and wills, to only make Himself known through that appointed One, that elect One, that chosen One. Jesus is unremitting (as I believe you know, and so many bewail) in His exclusivity.

He was, and is prepared, for the receiving of all projection
of all malignant motives a man (any man) might cast his way by that projection. "He wants to make Himself something" "He thinks he is better than us..." "He only seeks glory for Himself" "He blasphemes".

When a man is brought to see (by the convincing of another) the true place where these things are resident (but are shunted off by projection), then he begins to appreciate a need of his soul's salvation. And likewise the provision of a savior, indeed, the Savior of whose innocent blood he is now made aware of his part in spilling. Till then it is "all else" at fault, all else up for vilification, all else held in his eye for reviling, for to himself, and of himself...he is more than OK. (Not like Hitler, at the very least!) Or, that publican there. Or, those benighted gullibles...there.

The soul unaware by the Spirit's light, though, is precisely the need crying out answered by the God of salvation. To despise it, to find fault in it...is just another form of projection against self ignorance. And only invites a deeper working of the Spirit's light toward salvation. The man who blames his brother for "not seeing" is shown to only be the one, blaming himself.

And so it goes. He who is forgiven little, loves little, he who is forgiven much, loves much.


And no man can bear to see the "just how much" he has been all wrong, apart from the mercy shown in the Savior's light.
Ya hear these types of claims about one religion, ya hear em about every other religion.

When someone talks as if the things they say are a matter of fact, it would also be wise for them to also know that only the facts matter. Try to include some next time.
 

gemcgrew

Senior Member
Ya hear these types of claims about one religion, ya hear em about every other religion.

When someone talks as if the things they say are a matter of fact, it would also be wise for them to also know that only the facts matter. Try to include some next time.
Does anyone else see what I see? Anyone?
 

Israel

Senior Member
Ya hear these types of claims about one religion, ya hear em about every other religion.

When someone talks as if the things they say are a matter of fact, it would also be wise for them to also know that only the facts matter. Try to include some next time.
All a person has to do to not only become an authority on what 2000 year old dead people think, want, like, dislike, love, hate, feel...but also speak for the person and tell others what the corpse understands...is to read a book.
The beauty is since the dead person didn't write down a single thing, these new self appointed authorities just say whatever the heck they want about any situation while asserting and claiming that those are the words and thoughts and actions of someone and more often something that they not only never knew but can never possibly know.

Actually, it is not much different than what the anonymous authors who wrote the gospels did.

It's wonderful entertainment.

And......
Jesus taught to follow the Old Testament.
He wasnt asking for a new religion.
Paul wanted that.
Besides the obvious attribution to Paul of departing from the discipline of Jesus Christ (and His teaching) is the underlying accusation of Paul's motives in that departure.

You say (do I misconstrue?) Paul wanted a new religion.
And you have come to that, how? You have divined his intentions...how? What insight informs you of such a Machiavellian scheme to subvert the Gospel?


Must you not then do the very thing of which you accuse me, that is the knowing of a heart's desire of one you would claim...not present?

But we know this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us...

Fear not. I will no less be called to account for every word of presumption, every attempt to go beyond that which I know for the purpose of impressing, than any other man.


We remain in that, entirely alike.
 
Besides the obvious attribution to Paul of departing from the discipline of Jesus Christ (and His teaching) is the underlying accusation of Paul's motives in that departure.

You say (do I misconstrue?) Paul wanted a new religion.
And you have come to that, how? You have divined his intentions...how? What insight informs you of such a Machiavellian scheme to subvert the Gospel?


Must you not then do the very thing of which you accuse me, that is the knowing of a heart's desire of one you would claim...not present?

But we know this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us...

Fear not. I will no less be called to account for every word of presumption, every attempt to go beyond that which I know for the purpose of impressing, than any other man.


We remain in that, entirely alike.
I do not claim to have insight. I use knowledge gotten from study. There is no need for you to lie and claim that I do not offer information to back up my statements. I do and have done that for many years. I constantly offer links that back up my statements. I don't make claims without the ability to back them up. Your style is not mine.

Study your religions history instead of what it has been manipulated to become. You might learn something.

Then take the time to read the thread that I posted about Islam. All you believers and your same claims are on there, you just have different usernames.
NOTHING that you claim as exclusive isnt used around the world to say the same thing about all other gods.

You religious DJs all play the same broken records that repeat the same song while thinking your radio station is the only one on the airwaves. Time to upgrade.
 
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Israel

Senior Member
I do not claim to have insight. I use knowledge gotten from study. There is no need for you to lie and claim that I do not offer information to back up my statements. I do and have done that for many years. I constantly offer links that back up my statements. I don't make claims without the ability to back them up. Your style is not mine.

Study your religions history instead of what it has been manipulated to become. You might learn something.

Then take the time to read the thread that I posted about Islam. All you believers and your same claims are on there, you just have different usernames.
NOTHING that you claim as exclusive isnt used around the world to say the same thing about all other gods.

You religious DJs all play the same broken records that repeat the same song while thinking your radio station is the only one on the airwaves. Time to upgrade.
Why would I want to read about Islam? Why would I be interested in any religion?
 
Why would I want to read about Islam? Why would I be interested in any religion?
Exactly.
Stay in your own world.
Keep making assertive claims and use your source as its own source.
And pretend that what you say is unique.

Or

You can check the link out that I've given and you can see the EXACT same claims there that you make here and see that each of you think it is exclusive to your gods.

Learn or dont. Up to you.
 

Israel

Senior Member
How much do you think a man should read, search out, research in order to finally come to the conclusion "I am just a common man"?

Once one knows that, to what end is all the other educating of oneself in such matters?

Yeah...men make religions. Lots of them.
 
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WaltL1

Senior Member
How much do you think a man should read, search out, research in order to finally come to the conclusion "I am just a common man"?

Once one knows that, to what end is all the other educating of oneself in such matters?

Yeah...men make religions. Lots of them.
Israel, you cant just say "Yeah,, men make religions" and leave it at that.
Its the religions that tell you what god is, what god says, whats right about your god, whats wrong about their god, what people can do, what people cant do and on and on.

Ive asked this of a number of believers and my question always gets avoided like the plague -
Tell me exactly what you know about god (in this case God) that can't be traced directly back to religion. Including that a g(G)od even exists.
 
How much do you think a man should read, search out, research in order to finally come to the conclusion "I am just a common man"?

Once one knows that, to what end is all the other educating of oneself in such matters?

Yeah...men make religions. Lots of them.
It is up to the individual to decide how much knowledge is enough but ignorance is not an excuse to be uninformed.
The reason I posted that link was to inform anyone who is truly interested in wanting an answer that backed up my claim. Some of you wondered where it was...accused me of not doing what I called you out on....and when I do back up my claim you and others refuse to take the time to read it and then continue on as if I don't put my money where my mouth is.

Men/man/humans definitely make religions. And as much as you think your gods are unique and your arguments and claims are exclusive there is another "izzy"on another forum making the same factless claims about another god. It's a mirror you refuse to look into.
 

Israel

Senior Member
Israel, you cant just say "Yeah,, men make religions" and leave it at that.
Its the religions that tell you what god is, what god says, whats right about your god, whats wrong about their god, what people can do, what people cant do and on and on.

Ive asked this of a number of believers and my question always gets avoided like the plague -
Tell me exactly what you know about god (in this case God) that can't be traced directly back to religion. Including that a g(G)od even exists.

"Everything is open and laid bare before Him with whom we have to do"

I took the liberty of using that scripture to this end. I don't know that because the man who wrote that told me that. Or even relayed to me I have to believe that. (Although I do esteem highly the things he was moved to write) I don't know that because a religion...which is a mute thing told me that.

I simply know it because I have been made to know it.

There's a consciousness...that knows everything that moves through mine. And all the motions causing them. This I know. My consciousness is observed.


And in that, I reject also the religion of materialism. Do I use stuff? Sure. I was made to.
 
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