Converting the dying

Spotlite

Senior Member
don't confuse the reason for spending eternity in one place or the other. It isn't because you are good you get to go to heaven, or that you were bad, so hades is your destination. Your behavior is not the deciding issue.

the deciding issue is whether or not you accepted that Jesus is the only way to heaven, and repented of your wrongdoing.

What some people confuse is the 'he wasn't a bad person, I have known a lot worse' spending eternity in hades.

Righteousness and sin are like oil and water. They won't mix. You can put them together in a bottle and shake them for a year, and when you put the bottle down, the oil will float to the top. So it is with sin/righteousness. It doesn't matter if you were a 'good' sinner or a 'despicable' sinner. Sin and God won't go together, and He will not allow sin to enter heaven. Not even a little bit. Not a drop.

The only way to rid yourself of sin is through Jesus Christ.

OK... go ahead with your poking and prodding about my answer. It won't hurt me a bit, but remember, I wasn't the one who made the rules, and neither were you. If you don't like the rules, take it up with the One who made everything.
:flag:
 

Israel

Senior Member
One doesn't have to prove nonexistence.
If something can't be proven to in fact exist... well it doesn't until it can.
You are called a believer for a reason.
You are required to have faith for a reason.

Name something that in fact exists.
Do you have to believe it exists?
Do you have to have faith it exists?
Does something that in fact exists cease to exist if you don't believe it does or don't have faith it does?

Its really odd how you guys cling to this "prove something doesn't exist" nonsense. :huh:


Known to exist. Like Sandra Bullock?

Insertion of consciousness where it is not...yet? Or is it... never was?

Like the big bang?

El concho es muy slipperrioso. It thinks it goes places it doesn't.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Known to exist. Like Sandra Bullock?


Like the big bang?
.
I saw Sandra on TV so I know she does......and they said the Big Bang, or a dust cloud, or possibly some type of spontaneous combustion of gases, etc so it had to exist even though no one saw it........right????
 
If that is the issue you have then why not seek him? Humble yourself to seek him, not saying directly at you but if one is always trying to prove the nonexistence then how can they ever humble their self to seek him?
God supposedly made us in his own image. Then roasts us in a big fire for eternity for acting just like he designed us to act, unless we grovel to him and beg his forgiveness for being the way he made us. Not a god I really would want to worship as a morally superior being. This god sounds like Ramsey Bolton from Game of Thrones.

I do not believe that this is the true nature of God. But, it is the God of the Bible. I think I would prefer to look for God elsewhere.

And, what most would call "radical fundamentalist Christians," are the ones who take the Bible (which is supposed to be the Word of God,) literally, and follow it to a T.
 
I saw Sandra on TV so I know she does......and they said the Big Bang, or a dust cloud, or possibly some type of spontaneous combustion of gases, etc so it had to exist even though no one saw it........right????
Evidence either proves or disproves claims.
 
Thread starter #329
I saw Sandra on TV so I know she does......and they said the Big Bang, or a dust cloud, or possibly some type of spontaneous combustion of gases, etc so it had to exist even though no one saw it........right????
There is physical evidence of the big bang. For Yahweh not so much and thank goodness for that.
 

Israel

Senior Member
God supposedly made us in his own image. Then roasts us in a big fire for eternity for acting just like he designed us to act, unless we grovel to him and beg his forgiveness for being the way he made us. Not a god I really would want to worship as a morally superior being. This god sounds like Ramsey Bolton from Game of Thrones.

I do not believe that this is the true nature of God. But, it is the God of the Bible. I think I would prefer to look for God elsewhere.

And, what most would call "radical fundamentalist Christians," are the ones who take the Bible (which is supposed to be the Word of God,) literally, and follow it to a T.
What the Hebrews learned they learned through many painful lessons...if any learned at all. I am convinced some did. One may not like what they read, may not agree, may not believe...but I do find one thing, what is called the OT is replete with stories of a people "telling on themselves" through the prophets.

Who can read and miss the warnings? Who can read and miss the recorded missteps contained? Who can read and miss (as others have said) the "warts and all" revelations? Stories of a people chosen, who in that state took it to themselves to think themselves now "hot stuff", moved by a headiness that led them astray time after time, yet thinking themselves immune to the righteousness of the God they proclaimed. And finding themselves, time after time as they themselves the ones rebuked for disobedience and pride, landing in serious hot water. Captivities, humiliating defeats, dread judgments for things not hidden, but written; adulteries, murders, deceits, presumptions and craven lusts in greed for power. Not hidden, not spun as some history of a people so noble and exemplary in their manner and pursuits as to make the world blush in shame. Plainly...very much in some ways, in almost all ways, as the world at large.

But the story/stories, almost compellingly honest to a self admitted embarrassment (and as such I believe merit consideration on that basis alone) also have the rebukes and chastenings plainly contained. Warnings. Warnings issued from prophets in a call to justice, against dealing falsely, against a people so swollen in pride at their "own chosenness" as to disregard the commands of the very One whom they claim "made them special" by His choosing. One can disagree with the claims, disagree with the instructions given, disagree with the commands...but I would find it hard to disagree that these things are found...a people preserving a history replete with all their own earned humiliations. In that, by itself, something speaks.

Paul has said (that apostle) these things happened that a people may be warned. Admonished. Be instructed. Learn. That God is not a talisman to be carried, not a rabbit's foot for possession, but Himself, possessor. The claim of "knowing Him" or "having Him" is not to the end of a prideful boast of immunity, nor to a capriciousness of will as though "this God" who made the ear is deaf, who made the eye, is blind. It is both, and always, the blessing of knowing, with the stern warning of not departing from Him who has given the knowing. Too stern? Unnecessarily harsh? Not if one learns. If one learns of a proclivity to be swollen in pride, a thing never far from any, never too distant a temptation as to be "now" easily disregarded.
One can go through those pages for a plain instruction in result.

Jesus appeared after a long silence. "The" people now under the boot of the most formidable, entrenched, and far reaching worldly power the world had ever seen. It is said it was in the "fullness of time" He appeared, in this protracted silence toward the "people of God" in now misery of occupation, misery of of what probably seemed to them the most willful, and capricious exercise of such power over them, that perhaps they were "ripe" for a hearing...finally, through that suffering ready to acknowledge, "God is the Lord", and there is no escaping His righteous judgment...for any...even "His own".

Yes, I see a growth. A growth in mankind, and a mankind chosen. Daddy is "the Dad" (with whatever attendant understanding of because) as in "Because I am the Dad".
Finally understood in some measure, by at least some, now made ready to hear more. His unquestionable authority is not needing to be explained, (as never it was)...but a people called, and even made for excursions against it...have shown the result. It is a full grown son sent as though saying to those "who would/could hear"..."now that that matter is is finally understood, there is no God but God...hear all of His will for man"

I see what may appear obvious objection. "Why those people for example?" "Why that grouping for exposition" "Why that kind of plan...at all?" And I likewise understand that for any who cannot "see themselves" in that group, of "those kind of people" who could take a truth and depart so far from it as to shame themselves, this probably means little or nothing. But for some of us we identify, we see how we have made of our lives an occupation of strong and brutal forces, in likewise measure now enlightened to the truth..."we can blame no one...but ourselves"...we have deceived ourselves in our own pride. Yes, some of us are born to cry out for deliverance from those things we have "rightly earned".


And to this end, and for us, Jesus Christ appears...in the fullness of time. Our fight against authority, The Authority, is both revealed as it is, our own rebelliousness...and the great gift given to help us lay down our arms against Him. By lifting them empty, to Him.

We do not wonder why men do not see their judgment coming...for we surely did not. We ourselves were all so "very special to ourselves" in likewise manner thinking that all we saw "happening to others" was surely not for us. But such things were all so precisely arranged for us, that we might even think so, and there discover our own pride...and then, when its dreadful bonds revealed in terrible consequences too great to bear, we might cry out. And crying out is as great a gift given that those who have, have learned not to despise it.
 
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God supposedly made us in his own image. Then roasts us in a big fire for eternity for acting just like he designed us to act, unless we grovel to him and beg his forgiveness for being the way he made us. Not a god I really would want to worship as a morally superior being. This god sounds like Ramsey Bolton from Game of Thrones.

I do not believe that this is the true nature of God. But, it is the God of the Bible. I think I would prefer to look for God elsewhere.

And, what most would call "radical fundamentalist Christians," are the ones who take the Bible (which is supposed to be the Word of God,) literally, and follow it to a T.
yep, that's my "sticking point" with Christianity - I just cannot (maybe my feeble human brain is limited) equate "loving god" with "eternal torment." Yes, the default Christian answer is "he gives us a choice" but that doesn't make sense. :crazy: Why would that choice even be on the table? :crazy: It seems that the punishment doesn't fit the crime, and it is really revenge and cruelty for cruelty's sake.

A few weeks ago the pastor at the church I attend (I go to spend time with my wife - I'd rather be outside) was talking about hades and said "why wouldn't there be eternal torment? Because now you don't have god to protect you from it." :huh: Wait - didn't god create hades in the first place? It's not like another god created it and he wants to keep you from getting caught by the enemy, so to speak. He is the enemy (sort of) for creating eternal torment in the first place.

I guess my "religion" would be positive thinking, tolerance, respect for all living things, no such thing as good or evil, and realizing humans are not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but we are all very complicated and thus not perfect. And humans did indeed evolve from a long line of critters and we will face extinction like every other critter and that's okay.
 

Israel

Senior Member
yep, that's my "sticking point" with Christianity - I just cannot (maybe my feeble human brain is limited) equate "loving god" with "eternal torment." Yes, the default Christian answer is "he gives us a choice" but that doesn't make sense. :crazy: Why would that choice even be on the table? :crazy: It seems that the punishment doesn't fit the crime, and it is really revenge and cruelty for cruelty's sake.

A few weeks ago the pastor at the church I attend (I go to spend time with my wife - I'd rather be outside) was talking about hades and said "why wouldn't there be eternal torment? Because now you don't have god to protect you from it." :huh: Wait - didn't god create hades in the first place? It's not like another god created it and he wants to keep you from getting caught by the enemy, so to speak. He is the enemy (sort of) for creating eternal torment in the first place.

I guess my "religion" would be positive thinking, tolerance, respect for all living things, no such thing as good or evil, and realizing humans are not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but we are all very complicated and thus not perfect. And humans did indeed evolve from a long line of critters and we will face extinction like every other critter and that's okay.

but we are all very complicated and thus not perfect.
That's a niggling and nagging thing...isn't it?

That notion of something being what it is...yet in its being what it is...there's still the perception of something called perfect...and this thing being "not quite right" relative to it.

It seems it could be more, yet falls short.

Now, feel free to throw out all and any consideration of better/best/perfect...as mere constructs...but recognize how much else is discarded in that assumption. I wouldn't be afraid to say...everything of which man thinks.
 

Spotlite

Senior Member
Evidence either proves or disproves claims.
But most of the time the non believer says that he doesn’t have to disprove God, the believer has to prove him. Is there evidence that disproves God?
There is physical evidence of the big bang. For Yahweh not so much and thank goodness for that.
Just a question - are you two absolutely 100% positive that God doesn’t exist?

This is not an argumentative question, just curious if you’re absolutely positive or if you found evidence, you’d believe.
 
That's a niggling and nagging thing...isn't it?

That notion of something being what it is...yet in its being what it is...there's still the perception of something called perfect...and this thing being "not quite right" relative to it.

It seems it could be more, yet falls short.

Now, feel free to throw out all and any consideration of better/best/perfect...as mere constructs...but recognize how much else is discarded in that assumption. I wouldn't be afraid to say...everything of which man thinks.
I don't believe humans are perfect by a long shot, but I don't believe that we are born depraved and inherently sinful and in need of redemption, either.

We are what we are. Better than some critters on this floating ball, worse than others.
 
Thread starter #335
That's a niggling and nagging thing...isn't it?

That notion of something being what it is...yet in its being what it is...there's still the perception of something called perfect...and this thing being "not quite right" relative to it.

It seems it could be more, yet falls short.

Now, feel free to throw out all and any consideration of better/best/perfect...as mere constructs...but recognize how much else is discarded in that assumption. I wouldn't be afraid to say...everything of which man thinks.
Oh look! Your deity happens to be among the discarded. Along with a great many other gods. Yahweh could be more yet falls short. To be expected I suppose considering his maker.
 
Thread starter #336
yep, that's my "sticking point" with Christianity - I just cannot (maybe my feeble human brain is limited) equate "loving god" with "eternal torment." Yes, the default Christian answer is "he gives us a choice" but that doesn't make sense. :crazy: Why would that choice even be on the table? :crazy: It seems that the punishment doesn't fit the crime, and it is really revenge and cruelty for cruelty's sake.

A few weeks ago the pastor at the church I attend (I go to spend time with my wife - I'd rather be outside) was talking about hades and said "why wouldn't there be eternal torment? Because now you don't have god to protect you from it." :huh: Wait - didn't god create hades in the first place? It's not like another god created it and he wants to keep you from getting caught by the enemy, so to speak. He is the enemy (sort of) for creating eternal torment in the first place.

I guess my "religion" would be positive thinking, tolerance, respect for all living things, no such thing as good or evil, and realizing humans are not the greatest thing since sliced bread, but we are all very complicated and thus not perfect. And humans did indeed evolve from a long line of critters and we will face extinction like every other critter and that's okay.
Well said.
 
Thread starter #337
But most of the time the non believer says that he doesn’t have to disprove God, the believer has to prove him. Is there evidence that disproves God?


Just a question - are you two absolutely 100% positive that God doesn’t exist?

This is not an argumentative question, just curious if you’re absolutely positive or if you found evidence, you’d believe.
Not 100% but pretty close to it.
 
Thread starter #338
But most of the time the non believer says that he doesn’t have to disprove God, the believer has to prove him. Is there evidence that disproves God?
Give me any piece of evidence that disproves another god that would not apply equally to your god.
 

Israel

Senior Member
I don't believe humans are perfect by a long shot, but I don't believe that we are born depraved and inherently sinful and in need of redemption, either.

We are what we are. Better than some critters on this floating ball, worse than others.
We are what we are. Better than some critters on this floating ball, worse than others
I don't see how the second sentence is consistent with the first. In the first is exemption from any comparison, a thing is what it is.

But the second...well...comparison is again introduced.
 
I don't see how the second sentence is consistent with the first. In the first is exemption from any comparison, a thing is what it is.

But the second...well...comparison is again introduced.
A thing being what it is does not make it incapable of being compared to other things that are what they are?

Humans and liver flukes have their similarities, but they are also different.
 
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