Madman
Senior Member
Here we go again. I deny the power of the Holy Spirit no more than you deny the truth of the Holy Scriptures.
Acts 22:16.
Please connect 2 Timothy 3:5 to baptism.
Proof texting is dangerous hermeneutics.
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Acts 22:16.
Please connect 2 Timothy 3:5 to baptism.
Proof texting is dangerous hermeneutics.
Madman
Senior Member
I know this will in no way change your mind but I really enjoy this type of conversation.
There is no need to lay out 500 year increments, all that is needed to to show that the Church, which Jesus Christ instituted was designed to passed on through apostolic succession.
We have covered so Biblical verses so now let's touch a couple of the church fathers.
"Every word will also seem consistent to him if he diligently reads the S Scriptures in company with those who are oresbyters in the church, among whom is the apostolic doctrine. Irenaeus
It is impossible to learn anything true from your teachers for by their mutual disagreement, the havefurnished you with sufficient proof of their own ignorance. Therefore, I think it reasonable to return to our forefathers. ....................
Justin Martyr
1 Peter 3:21 should clear up your confusion about Acts 22:16.
It states clearly that the figure of baptism (water)does not do away with the filth of the flesh.
If you think it's the water that does it, you are denying the power of the Spirit.
Madman
Senior Member
You need to reread what you just quoted. It says baptism saves you, not by removal of dirt but by clear conscious toward God. You really should surrender to the Word of God.
Israel
BANNED
In considering baptism, these two accounts come to mind:
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
The first account is of the man who first recognized, quite publicly, (for we dare not disregard Simeon) Jesus in proclamation as the Lamb of God. The One for whom he (John) had been sent to prepare the way.
Before he "saw" Jesus he testified to the superiority of both He (the One that cometh after) and his baptizing in both the Holy Spirit and fire. (I indeed baptize with water...but...). He testified, before seeing Jesus, of His preeminence (as the coming one) in all things. John saw the order of things...even his own place, in that order. As herald. A voice "crying in the wilderness."
When seeing Jesus in the flesh we know his exclamation. This is He. The head of the order. The very Lamb of God. How very strange for John, seeing in spirit and discerning this order, with himself in all subordination, that Jesus had come to receive at his hand, baptism. All that he might infer from his seeing was here contradicted, and at first he could not bear it. This is not "right"...the superior One coming to me for a thing I need from Him. It is to be "the other way round". It simply cannot be, does not square at all, makes no sense, whatever. And he told Jesus so.
It is written he forbad him (Jesus).
Jesus understood. And He did not deny John saw rightly. But He knew where such seeing put him in this seeming contradiction of all.
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
(It is quaint usage of suffer for allow, but not as odd as one might first think.)
The perception of righteousness and the walking in the outworking of that righteousness often appear at odds...till walked. There is a suffering in that seeming contradiction. To "allow" what does not appear...right. As it was with John, so must it be for all, and any of us...only the word of the Lord, the word from the Lord...can cause us to enter into cooperating with His obedience. The obedience is always His, yet, he bids us cooperate...allow it, even suffer [in] it. Jesus did not baptize Himself. He did nothing "of Himself".
The Lord does not deny the seeming contradiction to us, the how of "it doesn't seem to square"...but He has something greater for us than the seeming contradiction, the joy found in suffering it. Joining...and being joined...in them. We are told:
For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Then He suffered him.
Paul was no heretic when he said this:
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
He was not saying "Jesus Christ did not suffer enough". God forbid.
But there is a participation, an invitation now (if one can bear it being said so, though it seem contradictory, God not denying...it seem so) that so crosses time as to make it of no consequence, erases histories (personal and otherwise) through which abundant entrance is to us made manifest.
It is neither ever too late nor too soon for any to hear if set to the hearing they have been made.
It appears as to us almost a "do over", an invitation to not do and be as once we saw, as that become the less real as another is being made the more to us. In us. The fading darkness as beholding the light shining in a once dark place...and His rising.
He calls. Still, He calls.
For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
He calls still.
The seeming contradiction, whose work is finished. The call...is in Him. And to Him. Nothing else.
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
The first account is of the man who first recognized, quite publicly, (for we dare not disregard Simeon) Jesus in proclamation as the Lamb of God. The One for whom he (John) had been sent to prepare the way.
Before he "saw" Jesus he testified to the superiority of both He (the One that cometh after) and his baptizing in both the Holy Spirit and fire. (I indeed baptize with water...but...). He testified, before seeing Jesus, of His preeminence (as the coming one) in all things. John saw the order of things...even his own place, in that order. As herald. A voice "crying in the wilderness."
When seeing Jesus in the flesh we know his exclamation. This is He. The head of the order. The very Lamb of God. How very strange for John, seeing in spirit and discerning this order, with himself in all subordination, that Jesus had come to receive at his hand, baptism. All that he might infer from his seeing was here contradicted, and at first he could not bear it. This is not "right"...the superior One coming to me for a thing I need from Him. It is to be "the other way round". It simply cannot be, does not square at all, makes no sense, whatever. And he told Jesus so.
It is written he forbad him (Jesus).
Jesus understood. And He did not deny John saw rightly. But He knew where such seeing put him in this seeming contradiction of all.
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
(It is quaint usage of suffer for allow, but not as odd as one might first think.)
The perception of righteousness and the walking in the outworking of that righteousness often appear at odds...till walked. There is a suffering in that seeming contradiction. To "allow" what does not appear...right. As it was with John, so must it be for all, and any of us...only the word of the Lord, the word from the Lord...can cause us to enter into cooperating with His obedience. The obedience is always His, yet, he bids us cooperate...allow it, even suffer [in] it. Jesus did not baptize Himself. He did nothing "of Himself".
The Lord does not deny the seeming contradiction to us, the how of "it doesn't seem to square"...but He has something greater for us than the seeming contradiction, the joy found in suffering it. Joining...and being joined...in them. We are told:
For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Then He suffered him.
Paul was no heretic when he said this:
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
He was not saying "Jesus Christ did not suffer enough". God forbid.
But there is a participation, an invitation now (if one can bear it being said so, though it seem contradictory, God not denying...it seem so) that so crosses time as to make it of no consequence, erases histories (personal and otherwise) through which abundant entrance is to us made manifest.
It is neither ever too late nor too soon for any to hear if set to the hearing they have been made.
It appears as to us almost a "do over", an invitation to not do and be as once we saw, as that become the less real as another is being made the more to us. In us. The fading darkness as beholding the light shining in a once dark place...and His rising.
He calls. Still, He calls.
For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
He calls still.
The seeming contradiction, whose work is finished. The call...is in Him. And to Him. Nothing else.
The "figure" of something is never the thing that has the power. The thing which truly has the power is being represented by the figure. 1 Peter 3:21 tells us water baptism is a "like figure".
Madman
Senior Member
Not necessarily but I will agree that the "figure" or the "type" is never greater than what is being represented.
Well, there you go then.
Artfuldodger
Senior Member
So is baptismal water a figure or type? How does this compare to communion or is that completely different in regards to a figure or type?
Madman
Senior Member
Water is the matter, it is the sacramental.
Israel
BANNED
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Has not God chosen the weak things for His demonstration of the exceeding greatness of His power? To the natural man it is all unacceptable, un-receivable...even the greatest of shames to mind insurmountable; which we find resisted by the reasonings of man in that end.
The "Why would God (or "a" god)..?" Have to, need to, in any way...involve Himself (or submit Himself) in the realm of created things to the end of making Himself plain...even in that most seeming contradiction against which all of reason would seem to have no choice but resistance? What offense is there encountered against that very God...who works thus!
Any seeming entry...at all...is a prima facie diminishing.
The very consideration of it meets the context in which all of man is rebuffed, rebuked, corrected that might be found in this "If I were God...I would not..." The man's imaginings of this, that that peculiar assumption to that place is known to him, is attainable by his reasoning, or is even attained...in that reasoning, so that he (for himself) decides to himself what God would or would not do...can, and cannot do. Man is completely self convinced he knows..."what it is like to sit upon that throne"...and proceeds from there...
I don't know that the new creature ventures very far in this new life in discovery of the righteousness that is of God to his own amazement..."there is a great impetus/motive toward insertion into that place"...(which he discovers is that seeming form of pervasive usurpation in which he was once immersed, disobedience) that in resistance to God...is now given him to be resisted through Christ.
I think in short, the man discovers not only "how easy" it is to think of himself in God's place, but how totally a certain mind is convinced of it. There is a "god of this world" in whom is no light, no knowing, (not even and particularly of his own estate as evil) and how by his capture to this mind he himself had not the slightest inkling of how deranged was his participation in believing he knows what "good" is.
And not only so...but that it is his, by that false apprehension...to be able to work it. Work in it. Work, to it. No, I do not believe the Devil himself knows he is evil, or even thinks of himself thus...but rather to the complete contrary. How great a salvation is demonstrated from that which appears, (and we are warned)...has to the natural, an appearance of light.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:14
What mind of the redeemed is not informed thus? What mind is not rebuked in:
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
Is this not why the apostle was careful to say:
"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God,..."?
To what...or to Whom is such such sobering to work in directing? Who alone can bear the all knowing of God of himself, in Himself? Who is able to be so completely examined in "that eye"...to anything but complete and utter destruction? So it becomes plain, or plainer...that it is not at all what a man says of himself, or thinks of himself...before the eyes of Him (or under the eye of Him) with whom we have to do that matters at all...all direction is made to those eyes.
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Paul once had ballast he once entertained:
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Again:
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
As soon as they were recognized to himself as those things by which he kept his own soul afloat, as soon as those eyes made clear to him in His knowing of him as what they were, mere things by which and to which his soul clung for a form of righteousness...over the side they went...without hesitation.
To the end of "do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,"
and
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
"That I may know him"
How odd upon the ear to what may yet be inclined to idols and any movement toward, or for them:
"That I may know him,"
To hear, what is all too commonly received (in certain circles)...as being said by such as is yet idolized,
That I may know him,
and all too quickly answers "But Paul, we believe [mostly] none other has known as you..."
There is the ever living God in our direction, and all else is idolatry...even those whom we would seek to make dumb to their silence...by any refusings of ourselves to hear.
Who of us can withstand this:
The foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, the Lord knows those who are His.
If we have not yet asked...might we? Is it enough...the Lord knows?
Has not God chosen the weak things for His demonstration of the exceeding greatness of His power? To the natural man it is all unacceptable, un-receivable...even the greatest of shames to mind insurmountable; which we find resisted by the reasonings of man in that end.
The "Why would God (or "a" god)..?" Have to, need to, in any way...involve Himself (or submit Himself) in the realm of created things to the end of making Himself plain...even in that most seeming contradiction against which all of reason would seem to have no choice but resistance? What offense is there encountered against that very God...who works thus!
Any seeming entry...at all...is a prima facie diminishing.
The very consideration of it meets the context in which all of man is rebuffed, rebuked, corrected that might be found in this "If I were God...I would not..." The man's imaginings of this, that that peculiar assumption to that place is known to him, is attainable by his reasoning, or is even attained...in that reasoning, so that he (for himself) decides to himself what God would or would not do...can, and cannot do. Man is completely self convinced he knows..."what it is like to sit upon that throne"...and proceeds from there...
I don't know that the new creature ventures very far in this new life in discovery of the righteousness that is of God to his own amazement..."there is a great impetus/motive toward insertion into that place"...(which he discovers is that seeming form of pervasive usurpation in which he was once immersed, disobedience) that in resistance to God...is now given him to be resisted through Christ.
I think in short, the man discovers not only "how easy" it is to think of himself in God's place, but how totally a certain mind is convinced of it. There is a "god of this world" in whom is no light, no knowing, (not even and particularly of his own estate as evil) and how by his capture to this mind he himself had not the slightest inkling of how deranged was his participation in believing he knows what "good" is.
And not only so...but that it is his, by that false apprehension...to be able to work it. Work in it. Work, to it. No, I do not believe the Devil himself knows he is evil, or even thinks of himself thus...but rather to the complete contrary. How great a salvation is demonstrated from that which appears, (and we are warned)...has to the natural, an appearance of light.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2 Cor 11:14
What mind of the redeemed is not informed thus? What mind is not rebuked in:
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
Is this not why the apostle was careful to say:
"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God,..."?
To what...or to Whom is such such sobering to work in directing? Who alone can bear the all knowing of God of himself, in Himself? Who is able to be so completely examined in "that eye"...to anything but complete and utter destruction? So it becomes plain, or plainer...that it is not at all what a man says of himself, or thinks of himself...before the eyes of Him (or under the eye of Him) with whom we have to do that matters at all...all direction is made to those eyes.
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Paul once had ballast he once entertained:
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Again:
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
As soon as they were recognized to himself as those things by which he kept his own soul afloat, as soon as those eyes made clear to him in His knowing of him as what they were, mere things by which and to which his soul clung for a form of righteousness...over the side they went...without hesitation.
To the end of "do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,"
and
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
"That I may know him"
How odd upon the ear to what may yet be inclined to idols and any movement toward, or for them:
"That I may know him,"
To hear, what is all too commonly received (in certain circles)...as being said by such as is yet idolized,
That I may know him,
and all too quickly answers "But Paul, we believe [mostly] none other has known as you..."
There is the ever living God in our direction, and all else is idolatry...even those whom we would seek to make dumb to their silence...by any refusings of ourselves to hear.
Who of us can withstand this:
The foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, the Lord knows those who are His.
If we have not yet asked...might we? Is it enough...the Lord knows?
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